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post #271 of 432 Old 11-15-2012, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by hdkhang View Post

Why are you bringing DAC's into the discussion? Do you know what an Amplifier's job is? .

By all means, fill us in.
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In your example above, take the pre/pro from your pre/pro + amp setup and switch between the power amplifier and the receiver as an amplifier, level match between the two and then run a double blind test that does not push one or the other outside of their comfort zone. Then see if you can reliably identify which is which - that is the premise of the argument. Nothing more nothing less.

The fact the you believe that a consumer grade, mass market 7 channel receiver (amp section only) cannot possibly be distinguished from, say, a hi-end 7 channel stand alone power amp speaks volumes for your lack of practical experience. If power amps are nothing more than a commodity, then you owe it to yourself to fill in every engineer in the business nevermind speaker designers and professional critics. Clearly, vibration control has no impact on sound quality. Power supplies? Nope. Class A, class B, Class A/B? Whatever. Fully balanced? Only words. Use of negative feedback? Pfffftt. IT ALL SOUNDS THE SAME.

Tell me, when was it that power amps reached this point where they all began to sound the same?
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post #272 of 432 Old 11-15-2012, 06:51 AM
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post #273 of 432 Old 11-16-2012, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

If power amps are nothing more than a commodity, then you owe it to yourself to fill in every engineer in the business nevermind speaker designers and professional critics.
When I upgraded to my lovely Salk speakers I anticipated needing to upgrade my power source as well. I asked Jim Salk, the speaker designer, what I should use to power them. He had every opportunity to plug a power amp (i.e. AVA, which is what he uses when presenting his product at shows) but he said, "That Denon AVR you have should work just fine." I've seen a number of engineers make the same point. As far as professional critics are concerned, they're just enthusiasts like you and me. It's their job to describe their experience with a piece of equipment. Sometimes a review, adjectives aside, tells you little more than if a device works as it's intended to. Other times they compare the product to its peers, but often performance is gauged in vague, subjective terms. Every reviewer is different, but the job of every one of them is to ensure their job persists, which is why observations unsubstantiated with objective data should be taken with a grain of salt. This goes for any product--car, vacuum cleaner, mobile phone or amplifier.

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post #274 of 432 Old 12-06-2012, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Is it better to do away with an avr and get emotiva pre amp umc200 along with an amp to power speakers?
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post #275 of 432 Old 12-06-2012, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by repete66211 View Post

When I upgraded to my lovely Salk speakers I anticipated needing to upgrade my power source as well. I asked Jim Salk, the speaker designer, what I should use to power them. He had every opportunity to plug a power amp (i.e. AVA, which is what he uses when presenting his product at shows) but he said, "That Denon AVR you have should work just fine." I've seen a number of engineers make the same point.

+1
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post #276 of 432 Old 12-06-2012, 04:26 PM
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Is it better to do away with an avr and get emotiva pre amp umc200 along with an amp to power speakers?

It depends on the features you want. One thing I really need is 2 HDMI outs. I couldn't find an affordable(for me) processor that offered that. Last week I found my solution. I got a B-Stock Yamaha RX-A800 receiver ($448 from One Call) combined with a UPA-500 ($349).

First thing I noticed is I'm getting more impact from my surrounds over my previous Yamaha receiver now that they have their own dedicated power supply.

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post #277 of 432 Old 12-06-2012, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by crussader View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

Is it better to do away with an avr and get emotiva pre amp umc200 along with an amp to power speakers?

It depends on the features you want. One thing I really need is 2 HDMI outs. I couldn't find an affordable(for me) processor that offered that. Last week I found my solution. I got a B-Stock Yamaha RX-A800 receiver ($448 from One Call) combined with a UPA-500 ($349).

First thing I noticed is I'm getting more impact from my surrounds over my previous Yamaha receiver now that they have their own dedicated power supply.

If you got more impact from your surrounds it is probably because the level was louder.  How did you measure more impact?

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post #278 of 432 Old 12-06-2012, 08:16 PM
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Definitely louder. On my previous Yamaha receivers I always had the surrounds set at +5 db, and still they weren't very noticeable. Now they are set flat and are very noticeable.

David
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post #279 of 432 Old 12-06-2012, 08:24 PM
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Those numbers don't mean much. 0 on one receiver may not be the same level on the other. You would need an spl meter to know they were at the same level. The new one that is louder may not actually be correct or at the proper level.
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post #280 of 432 Old 12-06-2012, 08:32 PM
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OK, I know it's only anecdotal, but let me put it this way. Over the past twelve years and three Yamaha and one Sony receiver I never could get the system adjusted to where the surrounds were very noticeable. It was to the point I almost decided to go with just a front stage. Immediately upon hooking up the amp, my first impression was "Wow. This it what I have been missing".

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post #281 of 432 Old 12-07-2012, 09:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by asere View Post

Is it better to do away with an avr and get emotiva pre amp umc200 along with an amp to power speakers?

UMC-200? Since they are still not shipping yet, I guess the question is when do you want it? Emotiva has missed 2 shipping dates now and currently say they'll ship on Dec 13. Their competition, Outlaw, has been shipping since November 30.

I am a believer in separates. A good AVR is generally the point of diminishing returns, depending on your speakers and room however. YMMV.
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post #282 of 432 Old 12-07-2012, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by crussader View Post

OK, I know it's only anecdotal, but let me put it this way. Over the past twelve years and three Yamaha and one Sony receiver I never could get the system adjusted to where the surrounds were very noticeable. It was to the point I almost decided to go with just a front stage. Immediately upon hooking up the amp, my first impression was "Wow. This it what I have been missing".

Did you level match the front channels to the rear using SPL meter in all those setups?

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post #283 of 432 Old 12-07-2012, 10:18 AM
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Did you level match the front channels to the rear using SPL meter in all those setups?

No. I'm not that anal about it. I'm not trying to prove anything here. Just relating my experience. I've read on this forum for years that separates are the way to go. I've made the move now, and I'm thrilled with the results (plus it was a cheaper solution for me).

David
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post #284 of 432 Old 12-07-2012, 11:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Are the emotive Pre amp auto calibration as good as Audyssey's? Example like the one on the UMC 200 AMP.
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post #285 of 432 Old 12-07-2012, 11:10 AM
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No it isn't as good as Audyssey. For Emotiva's history with room calibration software see earlier posts.
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post #286 of 432 Old 12-07-2012, 11:22 AM
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The latest Emo processors use technology licensed from Trinnov, I believe, so I am not sure anybody knows how it compares. It should be (far) better than the old, but how it compares to Audyssey XT32 I do not know. I have not read any reviews, although I have not looked.

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post #287 of 432 Old 12-07-2012, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

The latest Emo processors use technology licensed from Trinnov, I believe, so I am not sure anybody knows how it compares. It should be (far) better than the old, but how it compares to Audyssey XT32 I do not know. I have not read any reviews, although I have not looked.

Don,

The latest Emotiva prepro is the UMC-1 and that uses Emo-Q which I believe is based on the Cirrus chip set. The XMC-1 which has yet to be released will be using TacT room correction. Emotiva prepros will not be using Trinnov as far as I know. You might be thinking of Outlaw as they had a prepro in the pipeline that was cancelled which was supposed to have Trinnov.

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post #288 of 432 Old 12-07-2012, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by asere View Post

Are the emotive Pre amp auto calibration as good as Audyssey's? Example like the one on the UMC 200 AMP.

The calibration has not really been a problem. The RC is another story. It has been a fiasco almost as bad as Onkyo failure. You can still use the UMC without RC whereas the Onkyo becomes a paper weight.
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The calibration has not really been a problem. The RC is another story. It has been a fiasco almost as bad as Onkyo failure. You can still use the UMC without RC whereas the Onkyo becomes a paper weight.

So are you saying that Audyssey is worse? Not many would agree with that one...
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post #290 of 432 Old 12-07-2012, 01:13 PM
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But Onkyo will fix the HDMI and IDE failures even if out of warranty. Nothing can fix the UMC-1. The UMC-200 is unlikely to be any better than the UMC-1, although I'm hoping it will be.
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So are you saying that Audyssey is worse? Not many would agree with that one...
Calibration as in speaker levels, distance. I did not compare EmoQ with Audyssey. UMC's sork well w/o the RC. Onkyos do not work when they fail.
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post #292 of 432 Old 12-07-2012, 01:54 PM
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But Onkyo will fix the HDMI and IDE failures even if out of warranty. Nothing can fix the UMC-1. The UMC-200 is unlikely to be any better than the UMC-1, although I'm hoping it will be.

Why did you chose to jump ship rather than have your Onkyo repaired? I am sure that you would not have to wait more than 6 mo. to get your Onkyo operational when it fails completely.

Actually if you are not possessed with Audyssey the UMC is a great processor.
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post #293 of 432 Old 12-07-2012, 01:59 PM
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Why did you chose to jump ship rather than have your Onkyo repaired? I am sure that you would not have to wait more than 6 mo. to get your Onkyo operational when it fails completely.
Actually if you are not possessed with Audyssey the UMC is a great processor.

I am getting my Onkyo repaired. The UMC is the farthest thing from a "great processor" as you can get.
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post #294 of 432 Old 12-07-2012, 02:22 PM
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I am getting my Onkyo repaired. The UMC is the farthest thing from a "great processor" as you can get.

Why did you buy a Denon? It gets expensive having to own a back up. Other that your obsession with Audyssey how is Onkyo or Denon better at SQ.
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post #295 of 432 Old 12-07-2012, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

The latest Emo processors use technology licensed from Trinnov, I believe, so I am not sure anybody knows how it compares. It should be (far) better than the old, but how it compares to Audyssey XT32 I do not know. I have not read any reviews, although I have not looked.

Don,

The latest Emotiva prepro is the UMC-1 and that uses Emo-Q which I believe is based on the Cirrus chip set. The XMC-1 which has yet to be released will be using TacT room correction. Emotiva prepros will not be using Trinnov as far as I know. You might be thinking of Outlaw as they had a prepro in the pipeline that was cancelled which was supposed to have Trinnov.

Bill

 

Hi Bill.  Isn’t the latest the UMC-200?  According to Emo website this unit has "Advanced Emo-Q Gen2™ automatic multi-channel room correction", whatever that is. Seems like it is a development of the broken EQ in the UMC-1. Regardless, it is unlikely to be anywhere near as good as XT32 IMO.

 

EDIT: Oh - I looked at the Emo site again - the UMC-200 isn't actually a live product yet is it?  So I stand corrected on that part!

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post #296 of 432 Old 12-07-2012, 02:37 PM
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Actually if you are not possessed with Audyssey the UMC is a great processor.

 

It has other faults and problems though besides a non-functioning room EQ doesn't it?  Like totally screwed bass management, to name just one.

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post #297 of 432 Old 12-07-2012, 02:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Calibration as in speaker levels, distance. I did not compare EmoQ with Audyssey. UMC's sork well w/o the RC. Onkyos do not work when they fail.

This might surprise you, but UMC's don't work well when they fail either.
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post #298 of 432 Old 12-07-2012, 02:54 PM
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Actually if you are not possessed with Audyssey the UMC is a great processor.

 

:)  Would that be "great" as in:

 

 

  1. Sub woofer EQ not consistently working in PLIIx mode.
  2. PLIIx only working correctly when manually selected.
  3. PLIIx center channel reduction in level and voices being moved to side surrounds. 
  4. PLIIx regularly mis loads. 
  5. EmoQ room correction system that just didn't work at all, ever.
  6. HDCP problems.
  7. Video and audio dropouts.
  8. A frequent inability to be able to power the unit off properly.
  9. Video resolution that kept resetting itself to 480i.
  10. Bass management that didn't work properly due to bad design.
  11. An inability to set the bass level manually.
  12. A firmware update procedure that was fraught with problems and unreliable.
  13. A broken or non-existent loader (can't remember which now) which made it impossible to apply the FW update.

 

Plus many more that I can't even remember....

 

I love the way you remain in denial about the UMC.... ;)

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post #299 of 432 Old 12-07-2012, 03:02 PM
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I just blocked him. He has nothing new to add.
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post #300 of 432 Old 12-07-2012, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Hi Bill.  Isn’t the latest the UMC-200?  According to Emo website this unit has "Advanced Emo-Q Gen2™ automatic multi-channel room correction", whatever that is. Seems like it is a development of the broken EQ in the UMC-1. Regardless, it is unlikely to be anywhere near as good as XT32 IMO.


EDIT: Oh - I looked at the Emo site again - the UMC-200 isn't actually a live product yet is it?  So I stand corrected on that part!

Hi Keith,

I did not count the UMC-200 as it has not been released as of yet (which you noticed as well).

Bill

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