Are amplifiers worth it - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 432 Old 12-16-2012, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myoda View Post

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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

So you are OK with your surrounds sounding different than the front channels due to the different amps?
I am using the Carver for the L C R and surround channels. The Onkyo is used for the surround back channels. It is balanced.

Ok, thanks for clarifying.  But if the amps sound different to you, you are OK with two channels sounding not as warm as the others?  Or by balanced do you mean sounds the same?

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post #362 of 432 Old 12-16-2012, 08:38 AM
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For a while I was using an Onkyo 803 in my HT, with a B&K AV5000 mkII amp. At one point, I used the B&K to power my front 3 channels and the Onkyo to power the rear.
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

???   Why would different amps make his surrounds 'sound different' to the front channels???? confused.gif   

No idea why. But they did sound different.
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post #363 of 432 Old 12-16-2012, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

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Originally Posted by myoda View Post

I found a Carver AV-405 on ebay for $80 two years ago. It weighs almost as much as the 809, and has been working perfectly in my modest HT setup. The surround back channels are powered by the Onkyo as needed. As you can tell by the pictures, the power supply and the amps on the Carver are massive compared to the Onkyo. +1 on the room treatments. I finally hung some curtains up behind the tv. Those curtains made my highly reflective room much quieter. Could really use some bass traps that have a high waf.. Whether or not an amp was worth it - for me, I thought so. The (perceived) improvement in sound to me is subtle, but detectable. The Carver has a warmer, more robust sound to it - even after all these years. Ran the Audyssey calibration after adding the curtains. Sounds great. Sounds better at reference levels. Very clean. I may never leave my living room again. biggrin.gif

 

So you are OK with your surrounds sounding different than the front channels due to the different amps?

 

???   Why would different amps make his surrounds 'sound different' to the front channels???? confused.gif  

 

I don't think they would, but he stated the Carver is warmer and detectable by him, and since it is only driving the fronts it would seem he should be able to hear a difference between the front and rear soundstage and is ok with that. And that goes against the ideal of having all speakers sound the same.

Sorry - my mistake. I didn't connect your post with his remark that the amps sounded different. Yes, you are right - if they sound different to the OP then the surrounds and front should 'sound different'. They won't of course because good amps don't make any 'sound' at all - they just take an incoming signal, amplify it and pass it on unchanged.

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post #364 of 432 Old 12-16-2012, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LowellG View Post

So to all the amp experts here. I have Boston Acoustics VS line. I have VS260s and 325C across the front with 4,VS240s as surrounds. Currently I am using an Onkyo 709 as a pre amp and an Outlaw audio 7125 amp. I was thinking of adding 3 M2200 Outlaws for the front sound stage to give the speakers more watts. Would I gain any benefit. The room is 21x12.5x9.
Thanks
YES! Had a long, very detailed Post drafted when my smart phone decided to go to my home screen deleting my work.

So I'll distill it from memory and say:
Improved channel separation & crosstalk, front to rear & LCR.
Possible LR sound field expanded past speakers. .
Improved LCR bass performance
Improved system damping & distortion.
Increased system Power reserve.

Oh, did I mention the ego-inflating increase in total system power to 1100 FTC qualified watts?!!

Ya got the buckaroos & spousal acceptance, I say go for it! Hey for what it's worth I'm w/ya w/this multi-amp insanity stuff. Currently 4: 3 2 channel & 1 3 channel allowing for biamped LR & a powered sub Eventually 7, allowing fully triamped LCR, biamped rears, nearly doubling system power plus 2 powered subs!

Questions? PM me.

Merry Christmas, Tony
Luke 2:7-24
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post #365 of 432 Old 12-16-2012, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
amps don't "image"... the combination of recording, speakers, room and how well the user has integrated the speakers into their room determines "imaging"...
they "amplify"... nothing more, nothing less...
Some amps image better than others.
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post #366 of 432 Old 12-16-2012, 03:26 PM
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Just to clarify - the Carver AV-405 powers all the speakers in my system with the exception of the surround back channels. All of the speakers are timbre matched - so the soundstage in the the front of the room is consistent with the rear. Something I appreciated this morning when listening to the dvd audio disc of Steely Dan's Gaucho... It is rated for 100W for the front channels, 110W for the center channel, and 50W for the surrounds.
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post #367 of 432 Old 12-16-2012, 03:41 PM
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To me it seems you are contradicting yourself. If one amp sounds warmer as you say and you are using both amps how can the soundstage be consistant?
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post #368 of 432 Old 12-16-2012, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gp4Jesus View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
amps don't "image"... the combination of recording, speakers, room and how well the user has integrated the speakers into their room determines "imaging"...
they "amplify"... nothing more, nothing less...
Some amps image better than others.

Please explain how.
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post #369 of 432 Old 12-16-2012, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

ummm... no.... not in a million years...
ANY bdp (that is not broken) connected to ANY electronics (that are not overdriven or complete garbage) will sound "better" with "better, properly integrated speakers"... it has nothing to so with the "greatness" of the electronics...
How long have you been around this hobby?

I used to be a "speaker disciple." I remember people preaching that back in the late '70s. In the mid '80 a coworker at the store where I worked proved to me the the truth.. He let me run all the connections to eliminate any "slight-of-hand."
Also...
Why are some satisfied w/Sony, LG, Pioneer, Samsung, onkyo, etc, etc, etc, BDP while some "fools" spend 3-10X the $ on Oppos? Could be that the Oppo feeds a BETTER signal to the user's pre-pro, AVR whatever? No you say?

Then before you post again on this topic, find some Oppo owners and tell them they wasted 19X of their $ on a BDP thats no better that my 17 year old's $68 LG. Hope you get outta there alive.

So as I posted earlier...ANY component will sound ONLY as good as what's driving it.
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post #370 of 432 Old 12-16-2012, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gp4Jesus View Post

Some amps image better than others.


This is correct. I verified it by testing multiple amps with my Lirpa Labs Amplifier-Specific Imaging Analyzer Network (ASIAN).

I took an image of Kate Upton and used my Audible Hologram Generator to convert the image to audio.

While testing some of the lower-end amps, the ASIAN could not correctly identify the sonified image of Kate Upton. It kept reporting a reading of "impossible."

When testing monoblocks, however, the ASIAN correctly identified the sonified image, as demonstrated by its blowing a fuse and needing service.

For every new thing I learn, I forget two things I used to know.
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post #371 of 432 Old 12-16-2012, 04:26 PM
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Many stir the pot...
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

... people single out audio as [the] one technology realm where they're willing to abandon known science.
"...people single out audio as [edit] one technology realm where they're willing to abandon known science*." Another is evolution.
* observation, hypothesis, test hypothesis, repeatable results

Let's bring it to full boil!
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post #372 of 432 Old 12-16-2012, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't invest in a $12,000 pair of speakers if I didn't completely appreciate their performance (sound quality). I wouldn't pair them up with anything but the best pre/power amp and front end...
I can assure anyone that care about AQ that pre and power amps have a HUGE impact on fidelity. The front end (CD player, etc) has a ridiculous impact that is shocking to hear.

Originally Posted by Gp4Jesus 
Remember: ANY component will sound ONLY as good as what's driving it. Specifically: the best BDP connected to great electronics connected to good speakers will blow away a good BDP connected to great electronics to the best speakers. Another way to illustrate this point: if you don't retrieve the the data from the CD, DVD, BRD, etc, CORRECTLY, the $250,000 worth of HDTV, electronics & speakers that follow will tell you what a lousy job the player did



Originally posted by ccotenj

ummm... no.... not in a million years...

ANY bdp (that is not broken) connected to ANY electronics (that are not overdriven or complete garbage) will sound "better" with "better, properly integrated speakers"... it has nothing to so with the "greatness" of the electronics... it has everything to so with the speakers and how they interface with your room...



Ccotenj ignores why some buy Onkyo BDPs and some buy Oppo BDPs. The latter about 5-10X $ that of the former. I won't argue against the speaker/room interface or the value of controlling room acoustics.

Your comments?
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post #373 of 432 Old 12-16-2012, 07:04 PM
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This thread now has devine intervention helping people hear the differences.
primetimeguy likes this.

Regards,
Charlie

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post #374 of 432 Old 12-17-2012, 02:05 AM
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+1
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post #375 of 432 Old 12-17-2012, 02:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gp4Jesus View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
amps don't "image"... the combination of recording, speakers, room and how well the user has integrated the speakers into their room determines "imaging"...
they "amplify"... nothing more, nothing less...
Some amps image better than others.

 

Could you explain that in more detail?  So we know we are on the same page, what I understand to be 'imaging' is the location of sounds in space, both left and right (laterally) and front to back (depth).

 

I'm interested in how a component which takes an incoming signal and makes it louder (amplifies it) can contribute to the way that sounds are located in space.

 

I would have thought (and I am no expert) that imaging would be done when the content is created, either through the way the mics are placed during the recording, or by the sound mixer during or after the recording. Correct positioning of the speakers in the room is also obviously important (you won't get good imaging if you put your left speaker in front of you and your right speaker behind you for example). I can easily grasp how mic positioning would create the 'image' in space, left and right, front and back but I am struggling to understand how an amplifier can do this.

 

If the original recording has, for example, just three musicians - say a sax player on the centre-left, drum kit in the middle and towards the back and a trumpet player on the centre-right, how does the amp help that image to be created (as opposed to simply passing on what was in the original recording)?  

 

When you've explained how the amp contributes to the imaging, my next question would be: what makes one amp do this better than another?

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post #376 of 432 Old 12-17-2012, 02:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gp4Jesus View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

ummm... no.... not in a million years...
ANY bdp (that is not broken) connected to ANY electronics (that are not overdriven or complete garbage) will sound "better" with "better, properly integrated speakers"... it has nothing to so with the "greatness" of the electronics...
How long have you been around this hobby?

I used to be a "speaker disciple." I remember people preaching that back in the late '70s. In the mid '80 a coworker at the store where I worked proved to me the the truth.. He let me run all the connections to eliminate any "slight-of-hand."
Also...
Why are some satisfied w/Sony, LG, Pioneer, Samsung, onkyo, etc, etc, etc, BDP while some "fools" spend 3-10X the $ on Oppos? Could be that the Oppo feeds a BETTER signal to the user's pre-pro, AVR whatever? No you say?

Then before you post again on this topic, find some Oppo owners and tell them they wasted 19X of their $ on a BDP thats no better that my 17 year old's $68 LG. Hope you get outta there alive.

So as I posted earlier...ANY component will sound ONLY as good as what's driving it.

 

I am an Oppo owner (Bd-93). I also own a fairly cheap Panasonic BD player (can't remember its number but it cost less than a fifth of the Oppo). There is absolutely no difference at all in the HD (Bluray) PQ or the SQ (both via HDMI). I bought the Oppo for various reasons. Probably most important to me was that the Oppo upscales DVDs way better than the Panny - I used to have the Oppo 983 DVD player for DVDs and the Panny for BDs but the Oppo does both in one box.  It is amazingly well built, looks fantastic and if I ever want to try using analogue outputs (unlikely) I have them. It also starts up much faster than the Panny, gets the movie started much faster than the Panny, the control (chapter skip, FF etc) is much better than the Panny. There are more options in the menus than the Panny (eg I can select RGB out which the Panny doesn't allow). There are a lot of things which make the Oppo a great choice for me - but HD PQ and SQ aren't among them.

 

All modern BD players can get all the information off the disc and pass it to the preamp. It's pretty easy.

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post #377 of 432 Old 12-17-2012, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gp4Jesus View Post

So as I posted earlier...ANY component will sound ONLY as good as what's driving it.

 

That was true in the days of turntables and vinyl because there was a vast difference in ability between, say, my Linn Sondek + SME arm + Shure V15 cartridge and a Garrard SP25 with a 5 dollar arm and a 7 dollar cartridge.  But nowadays, with digital tech, all sources (unless broken or complete rubbish) can get all the info off the disc and into the preamp.

 

Nowadays the big improvements come from getting the room right and choosing the best speakers you can afford.

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post #378 of 432 Old 12-17-2012, 02:33 AM
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Not only that but the Oppo plays SACDs and DVD-As which justifies the price for me. As for imaging, it's a speaker and room issue not electronics.
There are so many posts asserting magical properties to electronics that I try to ignore them. Proponents of subjectivism rely on "truth" that is discerned by "faith" not on science.
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post #379 of 432 Old 12-17-2012, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Gp4Jesus View Post

ignores why some buy Onkyo BDPs and some buy Oppo BDPs. The latter about 5-10X $ that of the former. I won't argue against the speaker/room interface or the value of controlling room acoustics.

Your comments?

I just answered that one for you.

 

All modern players (unless broken or total rubbish) will get all the 1s and 0s off the disc and pass 100% of them to the prepro. How can a player do better than 100%?  I am talking HD here where a 1080p image is fed to a 1080p display. For SD there can be big differences depending on the quality of the upscaler and the Oppo BD players have one of the best upscaling chips available, which is a good reason to buy it in itself if, like me, you have about 1,000 DVDs in your collection. Same for sound via HDMI.

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post #380 of 432 Old 12-17-2012, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Not only that but the Oppo plays SACDs and DVD-As which justifies the price for me. As for imaging, it's a speaker and room issue not electronics.
There are so many posts asserting magical properties to electronics that I try to ignore them. Proponents of subjectivism rely on "truth" that is discerned by "faith" not on science.

 

Yes, I'd forgotten about SACDs and DVD-A - a very good reason to buy an Oppo over my Panny player, for example.

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post #381 of 432 Old 12-17-2012, 04:34 AM
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@gp4...

- i've been in it long enough to know better...

- i own an oppo 93, and this is my 6th player from them... others have noted the reasons why... i would add in their ridiculously good customer service...

- suggesting that i do reasearch "before i post again" is, ummm, amusing...

- it was explained to you what "imaging" is comprised of... interestingly enough, this is backed by, you got it, research...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #382 of 432 Old 12-17-2012, 01:37 PM
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post #383 of 432 Old 12-17-2012, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Not only that but the Oppo plays SACDs and DVD-As which justifies the price for me. As for imaging, it's a speaker and room issue not electronics.
There are so many posts asserting magical properties to electronics that I try to ignore them. Proponents of subjectivism rely on "truth" that is discerned by "faith" not on science.

+1

It's amazing how some folks want to believe that 0's and 1's can be interpreted differently by various players. Buy electronics based on how well the features in the unit align with your listening habits.

Or because you just plain want it!

Just don't make up pseudo science to validate the purchase.
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post #384 of 432 Old 12-18-2012, 11:44 AM
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To voice a contrary opinion, amplifiers DO impact imaging. Even a straight piece of copper wire impacts the phase relationship of the audio content. To simplify (maybe over-simplify,) for any signal that starts at the outset of an amplifier, it is NOT guaranteed that the low frequencies and the high frequencies will come out the other end at the same time. They could arrive at a slightly different time - or out of phase with each other. Typically, the faster an amp's ability to change state - slew rate - the better the phase relationship of the material stays in tact. Digital is also more than just passing 1s and 0s. It too can introduce phase problems, at any number of points, due to lag (latency), analog to digital conversions, and internal processing, especially EQ. Hence, a good amp with fast circuitry will outperform the imaging characteristics of lesser amps. Clarity between a singular mono signal, two microphones, or multi -hannel material can and will be affected before hitting the speakers. As I mentioned in an earlier post, those components which convert air waves to electronic signals, and electronic signals back to airwaves will ALWAYS have more impact on phase coherency and sound quality than amps.


PS: To Theresa who writes, "As for imaging, it's a speaker and room issue not electronics. There are so many posts asserting magical properties to electronics that I try to ignore them. Proponents of subjectivism rely on "truth" that is discerned by "faith" not on science." I would say the introduction of Theology into amplifiers is really cool. I think you are wrong but cool! Let me suggest a contrary opinion to you too. All truth is God's truth; "scientific" truth that humans have observed is merely a subset of all truth. Truth that is beyond our IQ or paygrade requires divine revelation which offers its own proof; yet faith is neither blind, subjective nor void of intellect. "Subjective faith" is the same thing as "misinformed science." They are both wrong. Those who, like yourself, view "scientific method" as the sole arbiter of all truth may be listening on the "AM band" and missing FM, Digital, Satellite, et all. There are vast truths that "science" has yet to scratch the surface on. For example? Until someone figures out where energy came from in the very first place - or where the matter itself came from, then evolutionary theories of how they might have synthesized together leave me skeptical. Until then, I'll stick with the Creator. Ironically, evolutionary theories fail to give acceptable and truthful explanations for many of the human experiences we value most. How does Darwinian natural selection account for "music"? How would survival of the fittest account for "artistic ability?" Music and beauty, the very stuff we crave to experience on home theater, likely has its origins in truth that lies far beyond human science and the tiny subset of truth that is observable to mere humans. To my agnostic and atheistic friends everywhere, I wish you a a Merry Christmas! John 14:6
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post #385 of 432 Old 12-18-2012, 01:19 PM
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How can a piece of wire change phase unless it is wound like an inductor? As for "slew rate," show me how an amplifier can be faster or slower and not have this impact the frequency response? Its no different than asserting that a sub can be "fast" or "slow," a fast subwoofer is called a midrange, a "fast" amplifier is simply one reproducing high frequencies. Most modern amps can do a good job with even square waves.

Please chip in, my objectivist friends.
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post #386 of 432 Old 12-18-2012, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breako View Post

Yep, hit the proverbial nail on the head, along with your comment on Mr Ohm. Lots of people love to make all sorts of completely subjective self imagined claims about being able to hear large differences in sound by changing cables, changing interconnects, changing amps or changing from a receiver to a dedicated amp, etc. Objective blind testing has proven that when comparing two capable power systems for the speakers in question being driven these claims are simply nonsense and untrue.
Yes, it is true that if the receiver you are using is substantially underpowered for trying to drive the speakers you are using, moving to a bigger receiver or a receiver plus a separate more powerful amp could result in audible differences you could detect. However, for the system the original poster described, this simply is not the case as his receiver is perfectly cable of driving those speakers easily to his desired listening levels within his set up.
For all these "golden ears" who claim they can hear all these differences, I would suggest you offer them a simple challenge: go buy a new receiver, and a new separate amp and hook them up to your speakers. Then invite them over, sit them down in your primary listening position, blind fold them and conduct your own series of blind tests with equally weighted sound levels when playing the separate amp setup versus your current receiver. See if they can actually tell which is which so easily? Ill wager you the cost of your new amp and upgraded receiver they will not be able to accurately tell you which power set up is which any better than pure random guessing. Objective bling testing supports my assertion. Im not guessing here, Im simply regurgitating what has ALREADY been proven in a number of objective random tests on the subject. Remove the placebo effect, remove the nonsense and have someone, anyone PROVE to you they can actually hear all these huge diffrences in sound that are claimed by the "golden ears." If they prove me wrong Ill buy your new components. If they cant, they buy them for you. They had better bring a good load of cash with them when they venture over to your home, because they"ll be buying your new system, not me. :-)
Unfortunately the AV world, like so many other hobbies has become inundated with people who believe money always buys something perceptually better. Sometimes it is true, often you are buying marketing hype and little else that is actually relevant to your uses. Will a $10k Krell amp put out more clean power than your receiver? Absolutely! Does it mean a hill of beans if you put it in your dwcribed set up with your describe use and speakers? Flat out NO! Hook that Krell up to the speakers you described and listen to them using your described usage, and Ill tell you now, No One, No One, would be able to detect an audible difference between your speakers played through that amp versus your current receiver. Sorry they wont! The plain reality is your speakers, ANY speakers, even $100K speakers put out orders more distortion than even a basic plain jane $500 receiver does regarding distortion which effects the sound output from the speaker. Thats a physical, mechanical, electrical fact! It's reality. The power source simply is not anywhere near as important to your output sound as the speaker is unless the power source is truly incapable of comfortably driving the speakers involved and is clipping. That is fact despite the "golden ears" placebo, buyer rationalization, claims to the contrary.
Sorry for being so long winded, but I get sick listening to self professed golden ears telling newbies they need to spend silly , ridiculous, bordering on ciminal amounts of cash on amps, cables, interconnects, etc to get good sound. It simply isnt true! Most of this uber high end stuff is little more than fluff sold to individuals who you could convince a turd tasted great if you put a $200 price tag on it, and sold it through a Whole Foods store. It reminds me of the moronic cable claims. Inside those $10k speakers, the wires are basic copper wire with a simple plastic housing, little different than a simple Belden cable or any wire you could buy from a Lowes or Home Depot! But yet somehow by magic, once you get outside the speaker that simple copper wire is no longer acceptable to providing good sound according the the cable "golden ear" proponents. Now all of a sudden you need some $500/ foot Koolaid Shunyata or Nordost snake oil cable sprinkled with fairy dust which of course "magically transforms" your sound according to the self professed "golden ears." If you listen to their drivel, that nosebleed cable magically changes the output sound of your speakers even though the physical FACT is the signal from that magic cable ends up being routed through a simple plain jane copper wire once it is inside the speaker, and before it reaches the speakers driver! The claim does not make sense, does it? Just goes to show the amount of pure snake oil complete BS which has become common place in this hobby. Snake oil improvment claims sold as fact, when all one would have to do is simply peek inside their speaker, look at the wires it uses, and if you had even a modicum of logic in your head youd know the utter nonsense and pure 100 percent bullsheot being sold by firms like Nordost, Shunyata, Monster, etc.... My rant is now done. :-)

"convince a turd tasted great if you put a $200 price tag on it, and sold it through a Whole Foods store" PRICELESS

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post #387 of 432 Old 12-18-2012, 02:10 PM
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Ok - these amp threads sooner or later seem to "jump the shark", degrade, then get locked.....
Who's got the running tally on that?
(I'm too lazy to search myself, and there is no option in advance search for "locked threads")
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post #388 of 432 Old 12-18-2012, 02:13 PM
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What we need is something like the Flat Panel shoot-out...get a handful of AVSers in a room and run a proper double-blind test of different amps.

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post #389 of 432 Old 12-18-2012, 03:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

How can a piece of wire change phase unless it is wound like an inductor? As for "slew rate," show me how an amplifier can be faster or slower and not have this impact the frequency response? Its no different than asserting that a sub can be "fast" or "slow," a fast subwoofer is called a midrange, a "fast" amplifier is simply one reproducing high frequencies. Most modern amps can do a good job with even square waves.
Please chip in, my objectivist friends.

Have you ever heard of the "skin effect" or diode effect?
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post #390 of 432 Old 12-18-2012, 04:02 PM
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Sure. Skin effect is commonly known to be a meaningful factor at high frequencies. Not so much, if at all in any meaningful way, at audio frequencies.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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