Can YOU hear the difference between amplifiers?? - Page 10 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Can you hear the difference between amplifiers?
1 - Absolutely 35 22.73%
2 - Generally Yes 47 30.52%
3 - Undecided... 15 9.74%
4 - Doubtful but perhaps 30 19.48%
5 - Absolutely Not 27 17.53%
Voters: 154. You may not vote on this poll

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post #271 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 08:28 AM
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OK. Call me ... "gurkey" wink.gif
I don't know what to believe in eek.gif... at least once in a while.
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post #272 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

No, I will remain skeptical because I don't know the technical details of your evaluation, or even what the equipment is. Yes, the above criticism is very unfair. I'm used to being criticized unfairly by true believers, so do your thing, dude! ;-)

And now we have begun to character assassinate using terms like true believers, each side calling the other names.

And then you name-call people with a valid point about poor quality listening tests "character assassins".

I've got no problems with being called a true believer in science and reason. ;-)
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post #273 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 08:45 AM
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please don't let this thread end up the way of other similar threads: you know what I mean

Thanks

edit: please limit further posts to technical issues: otherwise an Administrator will intercede

please take the high road in every post
if you see a problematic post, please do not quote it or respond to it: report it to the mods to handle
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post #274 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by mankite View Post

The poll results speak for themselves.

Fortunately, science isn't based on the popular vote.
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post #275 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 09:14 AM
 
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Great post except for the fact that your comparing the logical side to "Atheist's" when it's the "Atheist's'" that are going door to door trying to sway us "religious" members. Shouldn't it be the other way around? The poll results speak for themselves yet you see way more people writing paragraphs that are in the minority. If my observations were bias I'd think every piece I've heard that was more expensive then the other would sound best. Out of 3 EAD amps I've heard on my own system I still think the cheapest one sounded the best. When I asked the good people at Noble Electronics why that may be they told me I wasn't the only person who has asked that or thought that. One reason is that the smaller less expensive EAD PM500 has less power chips and less electronics in the signal path to achieve more power. Just because two amps with identical specs would sound the same doesn't mean anything because no two amps have the exact same specs in every area unless...... They are the same amp!

I REALLY hesitated before using the believer/non-believer analogy. I feared that it would push the wrong buttons. My apologies if anyone took the analogy as criticism of their beliefs.

My point was (is) that a closely held belief, arrived at subjectively, is largely impervious to objective persuasion. This is a fact of human psychology. And it affects the validity of the topic discussed here.

Back in the late 70's, at a time when the pundits at a variety of "golden ear" periodicals were stoutly arguing against the relevance of objective measurement and for the superiority of subjective analysis and criticism, a friend and I toyed with the idea of creating a product to be sold via the classified section of Audio and other "high end" mags. It was to be called an Audio Color Processor. Its purpose was to enhance the "purity of the colors of the audio spectrum" (we made that up, but it sounds really cool and smart). We would weld the box shut and poo-poo any attempts at electronic measurement. What is was, really, was a voltage divider with a rotary switch. Since the human ear and brain invariably interpret the louder of two sounds as "better", everyone would hear the difference. We figured by the time the authorities were on to us we could be somewhere without an extradition treaty with the US. Counting our money.......
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post #276 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

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Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

No, as long as you can't provide any proof of it rolleyes.gif and just offer an "opinion/believe" - your opinion to be precise - only

Nothing personal, but this thread has plenty of opinion on both sides of the issue. I have two amps that are both recent models and one of them produces sibilance when turned up to volume peaks at 80db or above. When a vocalist pronounces an "s", it sounds like an overly hard "sss", among other things. Now with the same system, same tracks, same room and same volume level, the other amp does not, and has a better soundstage. It's my speakers. They have a very articulate top end, but can sound bright with some recordings. It's repeatable and annoying. Oddly enough, I just bumped into another owner of the same speakers on another forum who experienced the same thing with his Emotiva amp. He got rid of his 6000 speakers and kept his 800 amp. I sold my Emotiva amp because it does not blend well with my speakers.

Now some people on this thread will simply not believe me about the two amps because it threatens their understanding or belief system. They think I'm hearing things or whatever. Hey, whatever makes them feel comfortable I guess.

Amps *can* sound different to each other - for example if they are broken, badly designed or forced to work outside their design parameters. Other than that, all the science says people cannot differentiate between them in blind tests.

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post #277 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mankite View Post

The poll results speak for themselves.

 

I find it hard to grasp that you think the poll results show who is right and who is wrong.  What they actually show is who believes what.

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post #278 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 09:32 AM
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It shows that the people that hear a difference are less prone to post 50 times to convince the other side.

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post #279 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 09:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I find it hard to grasp that you think the poll results show who is right and who is wrong.  What they actually show is who believes what.

Yup. That's why they are called "opinion polls". wink.gif

Highly recommended book for anyone interested in why our analyses and predictions are so often wrong: http://www.amazon.com/Signal-Noise-Most-Predictions-Fail/dp/159420411X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1354120299&sr=1-1&keywords=the+signal+and+the+noise
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post #280 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 10:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Amps *can* sound different to each other - for example if they are broken, badly designed or forced to work outside their design parameters. Other than that, all the science says people cannot differentiate between them in blind tests.

You have detected differences between different components and I've read about them in your In The Round articles. For instance, the Oppo 95 and the Sony XA5400ES, so why is it possible for CD players to sound different and amps not unless they are badly designed, etc? I don't follow you there.
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post #281 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 11:09 AM
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Is it not possible that some peoples hearing is more sensitive than others or just plain outright better? Just as there are people who can distinguish very subtle flavors in wine or people who test different fragrances? Not everyone is able to do these things but if they can and its been proven, are you offended by it?? Im inclined to believe that someone who might not be able to tell the difference might get defensive and shrug it off as simply impossible because they themselves cant..........just my .02
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post #282 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 11:12 AM
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The question is weirdly phrased. Even average ears can tell the difference between a crappy amplifier and a quality one. The difference between similar class amps of similar power?? After thorough auditioning of very familiar recordings on a very familiar system (your own high quality pre-amp and speakers), I still think most people could tell. On a blind test on random recordings on someone else's system, I'm not quite so sure.
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post #283 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mankite View Post

It shows that the people that hear a difference are less prone to post 50 times to convince the other side.

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post #284 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mankite View Post

It shows that the people that hear a difference are less prone to post 50 times to convince the other side.

I think both sides have some high post counts. You have 35 in this thread as of this post.

Just sayin...
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post #285 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Titan7170 View Post

Is it not possible that some peoples hearing is more sensitive than others or just plain outright better? Just as there are people who can distinguish very subtle flavors in wine or people who test different fragrances? Not everyone is able to do these things but if they can and its been proven, are you offended by it?? Im inclined to believe that someone who might not be able to tell the difference might get defensive and shrug it off as simply impossible because they themselves cant..........just my .02

except...

statistical analysis of controlled studies pretty firmly answer the question at hand... smile.gif

however, that is shrugged off...

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post #286 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Amps *can* sound different to each other - for example if they are broken, badly designed or forced to work outside their design parameters. Other than that, all the science says people cannot differentiate between them in blind tests.

You have detected differences between different components and I've read about them in your In The Round articles. For instance, the Oppo 95 and the Sony XA5400ES, so why is it possible for CD players to sound different and amps not unless they are badly designed, etc? I don't follow you there.

 

In my *what* articles??  I claim a serious case of misidentification ;)  (But if the other guy is getting paid for these articles and I could somehow get the money, maybe we're onto something).

 

And FWIW I don't think Bluray players sound different to each other when using HDMI either.

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post #287 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by mankite View Post

It shows that the people that hear a difference are less prone to post 50 times to convince the other side.

I think it shows they are delusional, but hey, you believe what you want. It's your money you're wasting...

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post #288 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mankite View Post

Great post except for the fact that your comparing the logical side to "Atheist's" when it's the "Atheist's'" that are going door to door trying to sway us "religious" members. Shouldn't it be the other way around? The poll results speak for themselves ***!

Keep in mind that a large number of people on these forums have pecuniary interests in the audio industry, but are often of insufficiently high moral character to disclose said interests when voting in a poll like that, or when posting.

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post #289 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 01:34 PM
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I have a Denon 4311. I was using all its amp channels, along with a Radio Shack 45w amp (for the 10th and 11th channels) for my 11.1 sound.
I then got my Outlaw 750 power amp from the shop, used that to drive all five front channels, Denon internals only powered the surrounds and front wides (six channels in all). I didn't notice any difference in sound.
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post #290 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Titan7170 View Post

Is it not possible that some peoples hearing is more sensitive than others or just plain outright better? Just as there are people who can distinguish very subtle flavors in wine or people who test different fragrances? Not everyone is able to do these things but if they can and its been proven, are you offended by it?? Im inclined to believe that someone who might not be able to tell the difference might get defensive and shrug it off as simply impossible because they themselves cant..........just my .02

 

Fragrances and wines have an important factor you are overlooking: they actually do have significant differences between them. With amps. no matter how good someone's ears are, if tests show that the output signal is the same as the input signal, in two different amps, then there is no difference to be detected. Of course, people, for whatever reason, do believe they can hear differences even where it can be proven none exist. Why they want to believe this I have no idea - maybe they want to convince themselves, or others, that they have "superior hearing". Or maybe they are pi&&ed that they have spent thousands of $$$ on a "superior" amp and there's no actual audible difference. You’d think people would be pleased to learn that a $500 amp from Emotiva sounds exactly as good as a $10,000 amp from XXXXX.

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post #291 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

You have detected differences between different components and I've read about them in your In The Round articles. For instance, the Oppo 95 and the Sony XA5400ES, so why is it possible for CD players to sound different and amps not unless they are badly designed, etc? I don't follow you there.

I believe you have mistaken Keith for Kal Rubinson wink.gif.

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In my *what* articles??  I claim a serious case of misidentification wink.gif  (But if the other guy is getting paid for these articles and I could somehow get the money, maybe we're onto something).

And FWIW I don't think Bluray players sound different to each other when using HDMI either.

Oops, I indeed got you mixed up with someone else.
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post #293 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I think it shows they are delusional, but hey, you believe what you want. It's your money you're wasting...

With that comment you just revealed your hand. Jealousy and Envy coming from my Enemies. smile.gif

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post #294 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Fragrances and wines have an important factor you are overlooking: they actually do have significant differences between them. With amps. no matter how good someone's ears are, if tests show that the output signal is the same as the input signal, in two different amps, then there is no difference to be detected. Of course, people, for whatever reason, do believe they can hear differences even where it can be proven none exist. Why they want to believe this I have no idea - maybe they want to convince themselves, or others, that they have "superior hearing". Or maybe they are pi&&ed that they have spent thousands of $$$ on a "superior" amp and there's no actual audible difference. You’d think people would be pleased to learn that a $500 amp from Emotiva sounds exactly as good as a $10,000 amp from XXXXX.

That makes no sense as two speakers can measure the same and sound different.

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post #295 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

You have detected differences between different components and I've read about them in your In The Round articles. For instance, the Oppo 95 and the Sony XA5400ES, so why is it possible for CD players to sound different and amps not unless they are badly designed, etc? I don't follow you there.

I believe you have mistaken Keith for Kal Rubinson wink.gif.

Bill

 

Could have been much worse I guess :)  How you keeping Bill?  We haven't bumped into each other much lately...

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post #296 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mankite View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I think it shows they are delusional, but hey, you believe what you want. It's your money you're wasting...

With that comment you just revealed your hand. Jealousy and Envy coming from my Enemies. smile.gif

 

What would I be jealous about?

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post #297 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by mankite View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Fragrances and wines have an important factor you are overlooking: they actually do have significant differences between them. With amps. no matter how good someone's ears are, if tests show that the output signal is the same as the input signal, in two different amps, then there is no difference to be detected. Of course, people, for whatever reason, do believe they can hear differences even where it can be proven none exist. Why they want to believe this I have no idea - maybe they want to convince themselves, or others, that they have "superior hearing". Or maybe they are pi&&ed that they have spent thousands of $$$ on a "superior" amp and there's no actual audible difference. You’d think people would be pleased to learn that a $500 amp from Emotiva sounds exactly as good as a $10,000 amp from XXXXX.

That makes no sense as two speakers can measure the same and sound different.

 

Speakers are analogue devices. Amps aren't. Speakers sound different to each other, like rooms. Amps don't.

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post #298 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 03:38 PM
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Your logic is failing, unfortunately... or not wink.gif But that's quite common among "fundamentalists" tongue.gif. Logic is not their business, isn't it ? Belief escapes worldly logic, doesn't it biggrin.gif
They are not the "same" amp, how could they eek.gif, but they probably sound the same under controlled listening conditions and equal terrain.
Amps are not "perfect", they interact with those components connected to it, sinks (speaker) and sources (i.e. players), thus the combination of those might still show some audible differences, but they are not attributable to that isolated amp, as long as the "playing field" is been kept level.

If it is a different amp connected to the same components, but a difference can be heard due to connected components, how does one keep the playing field level so the amps can sound the same?

I've had three different amps in my system, and they all sound different from one another. Marantz MA-500 monoblocks, Sony TA-N9000es, and Parasound 5250. I attribute a lot of the difference due to synergy between all the components, so even with similar specs, amps can sound different depending on use?
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post #299 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Speakers are analogue devices. Amps aren't. Speakers sound different to each other, like rooms. Amps don't.

If the speakers are eq'd to have the same frequency response why would they sound different? Just like if an amp has the same specs it sounds the same.

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post #300 of 433 Old 11-28-2012, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
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If the speakers are eq'd to have the same frequency response why would they sound different?

Care to expand on how speakers are supposed to be EQ'd to have the same frequency response?
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