Can YOU hear the difference between amplifiers?? - Page 13 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Can you hear the difference between amplifiers?
1 - Absolutely 35 22.73%
2 - Generally Yes 47 30.52%
3 - Undecided... 15 9.74%
4 - Doubtful but perhaps 30 19.48%
5 - Absolutely Not 27 17.53%
Voters: 154. You may not vote on this poll

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post #361 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

sure...
since we can measure magnitudes more precisely than we can "hear"... and meaurement equipment doesn't have that "brain part" getting in the way... wink.gif
where ya been michael?

Been busy. Not like the old job where I had time to read some forums smile.gif Was more into PC performance the last 6 months. Spent a fair amount of time building high performance gaming PC, and overclocking it (then deciding I needed to spend more money, it's a vicious cycle not unlike audio gear craziness.) Playing PC games, working, spending time with female friend. I try to pop in now and again to read this sort of thread though, heh smile.gif

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post #362 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by mankite View Post

You guys are nuttier then squirrel turds. All 3 EAD amps I have had in my system all were set to 75db with an spl meter. Why would it be important to do anything else. The best part is that once the first amp was set to 75db I didn't have to touch a thing on the next two. So please tell me now why its such a more complicated procedure that needs to be done. lol

 

There you are then. You did not level match, so your 'listening tests' are meaningless.

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post #363 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mankite View Post

It does end the discussion because if I have to go through all that to prove something I could care less about then what's the point? If you have to go through all the trouble to prove some point that's meaningless to 99% on here then why bother? I'm not trying to prove anything, I'm happy with my equipment. If I hook up a piece of gear that's better then what I have I keep it and sell the other. I'm not looking to do a science experiment, I'm looking to enjoy my system. Maybe you guys should try the same. cool.gif

Problem is, you don't know that "a piece of gear is better than another" - you just *believe* it is because you want to.

 

That's OK too, but don't come along on a science forum and present your subjective opinion as 'fact' because you will be challenged and shot down every time, as this thread is proving.

 

You're out of your depth in this discussion and your posts prove it, and you don't seem prepared to even try to learn, so the best outcome is just to let you be happy and enjoy your system. As they say, ignorance is bliss ;)

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post #364 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mankite View Post

That's not gonna make one amp sound brighter then another. .1 db, lol. And for the record I enjoy trying new gear.

 

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Originally Posted by Jond0 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mankite View Post

That's not gonna make one amp sound brighter then another. .1 db, lol. And for the record I enjoy trying new gear.

Plus, if one amp seems unsatisfactory after listening over a period of hours, i.e. fatiguing, and proves over a period of months to continue to be so and is ultimately replaced with another amp that does not introduce the same listening fatigue, what difference does it make if it is level matched or not. This is not transitory audio memory, which at first I can see how louder might make one seem more interesting than another, but the fatigue part is something that takes much longer to notice.

 

Guys, the poster said that the level difference factor has been proven, scientifically. Some guys didn't just sit around and subjectively say "hey, let's say that a 0.1dB difference is important" (which is kinda what you and mankite are saying about the differences you believe you can hear, but cannot in any way even begin to prove). If you really want to learn something, and improve the enjoyment you get from your hobby, google is your friend - there are numerous articles on the net that will help you gain a better understanding. But simply repeating all the time "I can hear a difference" isn't going to cut it.

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post #365 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mankite View Post

The difference between my statements and yours is I'm not trying to convince you to agree with me. I don't care whatcha believe. Why are you worried about what I believe?

Because if you try to learn something about the subject, objectively, you will get far more from your hobby and you will save a lot of money too, which can then be spent on things that really do make a difference to the sound quality you are getting in your room. ATM you are just wasting your time and money. It's not that anyone is worried about what you believe - but the idea of these forums is that people with genuine experience share their knowledge for the benefit of all. As those people don't get paid for this, it is all altruistic. If you would stop simply repeating "I believe this and I believe that" and instead did some objective research into the subject you keep posting about, you will come to see that your 'beliefs' about amps are simply incorrect. Heck, in all the time you have spent posting "I believe..." you could have read a lot of useful information.

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post #366 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mankite View Post

That's not gonna make one amp sound brighter then another. .1 db, lol. And for the record I enjoy trying new gear.

Despite what you want to believe, numerous studies have indicated that to properly level match, the units need to be matched to .1db or better.

Laughing at established science doesn't make it any less valid, it only makes your lack of understanding more obvious.
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post #367 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 04:59 PM
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You guys are just out there. Why so serious about something that is so simple. Soon I'll be replacing my Integra 80.2 with the new Maranz 8801. I'll let you guys know what I think when I'm done, no charge. smile.gif

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post #368 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by mankite View Post

You guys are just out there. Why so serious about something that is so simple. Soon I'll be replacing my Integra 80.2 with the new Maranz 8801. I'll let you guys know what I think when I'm done, no charge. smile.gif

Why come to a science based forum (or at least one where most members try to make it that) and then reject the information that's offered? You clearly have quite a bit to learn but seem unwilling to move past your beliefs despite the overwhelming evidence presented.

There are forums focused on the subjective where you'd probably feel more comfortable as you'll find unsupported/unsupportable claims aren't left unchallenged here.
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post #369 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 05:07 PM
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The only evidence that will convince me is a significantly cheaper system sounding better then mine. smile.gif Anyone want to take a shot at that?

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post #370 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mankite View Post

You guys are nuttier then squirrel turds.

Either that or so much better informed than you that you can't properly relate to it. ;-)
Quote:
All 3 EAD amps I have had in my system all were set to 75db with an spl meter. Why would it be important to do anything else.

Because matching within a stable 0.1 dB is required. SPL meters lack the consistency and stability for that.

If you don't match levels closely, the mismatched level becomes a source of audible differences.

I've given the proper procedure for matching levels on AVS many times, including a post to this thread earlier today.
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post #371 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Why come to a science based forum (or at least one where most members try to make it that) and then reject the information that's offered? You clearly have quite a bit to learn but seem unwilling to move past your beliefs despite the overwhelming evidence presented.
There are forums focused on the subjective where you'd probably feel more comfortable as you'll find unsupported/unsupportable claims aren't left unchallenged here.

As I mentioned earlier, there is no requirement in this forum's policy for all statements or opinions to be rendered with scientific backing. What I don't understand is the relentless dogging of anyone with an opinion that differs from the Borg. wink.gif

We're talking about sound and enjoyment here, not some elaborate technical detail where the Earth is going to be destroyed if we don't get it right. OTOH, December 21st rapidly approaches; relax and enjoy what you have. wink.gif

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #372 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mankite View Post

You guys are just out there. Why so serious about something that is so simple. Soon I'll be replacing my Integra 80.2 with the new Maranz 8801. I'll let you guys know what I think when I'm done, no charge. smile.gif

Share with me how you like the 8801 I need an upgrade and the 8801 was on my list to consider.

Wishing I could post in the Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)

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post #373 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 05:59 PM
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Been waiting a long time for a Marantz processor with XT32 or a cheaper Denon processor.

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post #374 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 06:28 PM
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Wow...guess I will sell my parasound halo jc-1 and buy a Panasonic l-100 for 75$..and spend the rest on popcorn as I read this thread! Its very amusing.... AMPS do sound different...maybe not drastic...but every amp I have owned sound subtly different...I did a blind test just yesterday with 3 different amps ..the 4 of us picked out the halo amp every time!. The denon, and outlaw was a little tougher...but we all heard differences in these amps playing the same steely Dan and Fleetwood Mac CDs...at one point I did not change the amp but I did change the interconnects from straight wire cresendos to monster cable 20$ cheapys...everyone thought I switched the amp..totally different sound!..I'm sorry but I can't even believe were arguing over something that is soooo obvious!...I'm gonna go make a turkey sandwich
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post #375 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelkingdom View Post

Given they are competently designed, functioning and properly matched to a speaker's requirements.

"A straight wire with gain." That was electronics designer Stewart Hegeman definition of the perfect amplifier.

Now this discussion is assuming that all amplifiers are perfect, if that is the case then they all sound the same. There is no perfect amplifier so the ones that do less harm will sound better as long as they are properly matched with the corresponding components.

"Half the world is looking for Jesus, and the other half is looking for more bass..."
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post #376 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Wow...guess I will sell my parasound halo jc-1 and buy a Panasonic l-100 for 75$..and spend the rest on popcorn as I read this thread! Its very amusing.... AMPS do sound different...maybe not drastic...but every amp I have owned sound subtly different...I did a blind test just yesterday with 3 different amps ..the 4 of us picked out the halo amp every time!. The denon, and outlaw was a little tougher...but we all heard differences in these amps playing the same steely Dan and Fleetwood Mac CDs...at one point I did not change the amp but I did change the interconnects from straight wire cresendos to monster cable 20$ cheapys...everyone thought I switched the amp..totally different sound!..I'm sorry but I can't even believe were arguing over something that is soooo obvious!...I'm gonna go make a turkey sandwich

Can you please provide more details of the test?

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post #377 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 06:51 PM
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So if one was to compare a Ferrari to Camry do you have to go under 130mph to make it fair? He likes the Halo better!!! As well he should as its a superb piece.

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post #378 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 07:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jond0 View Post

This is not transitory audio memory

transitory electrical memory (or whatever else you use to see a bump in the line).
Quote:
Originally Posted by mankite View Post

You guys are just out there. Why so serious about something that is so simple. Soon I'll be replacing my Integra 80.2 with the new Maranz 8801. I'll let you guys know what I think when I'm done, no charge. smile.gif

hey.. no kidding
some of these responses back arent worth eating because they are long but dont charge up enough electrical gush to get my brain squirting.
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post #379 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Thanks Theresa - you are of course correct - I am mixing up my woofs and my, er, non-woofs smile.gif  I will correct my post.
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Can you please provide more details of the test?
yes...as soon as I finish my sandwich..lol..what would you like to know?....speakers are paradigm 60s..were all in our early 40s...ears properly working..this test was just for fun..to see or hear what might be different..hold on. (Still eating sandwich).. There's so much to listen for..little details...dynamics..the clicks in the background of steely Dan...etc..etc..were not scientists with special tools or anything..just our ears!..but what details do you want to know about?...the turkey is boars head..the bread..martins potato bread..lol
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post #380 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 07:43 PM
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I'M HUNGRY!!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

yes...as soon as I finish my sandwich..lol..what would you like to know?....speakers are paradigm 60s..were all in our early 40s...ears properly working..this test was just for fun..to see or hear what might be different..hold on. (Still eating sandwich).. There's so much to listen for..little details...dynamics..the clicks in the background of steely Dan...etc..etc..were not scientists with special tools or anything..just our ears!..but what details do you want to know about?...the turkey is boars head..the bread..martins potato bread..lol

I see the atoms free and fine,

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Jumping from ring to outer ring;
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post #381 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 07:46 PM
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I performed some SBT's a few years ago…I got around the level matching challenge by taking it from opposite angle. Since I couldn't level match Component A & B, every iteration was scripted to have a completely different combination of volume, treble, and bass. For each iteration the listener had to write down A or B, there were 20 iterations. Therefore, the two components were not just competing with each other, but with itself as well. For test subject I employed the wife, whose bias is to save as much money as possible (to make available for her hobby, designer fashion!). For comparison's sake, we then reversed roles where i was the listener and she would make up a different script.

The goal was, there needs to be a really major difference to escape a 50% guessing result.

My setup at the time was ideal, because the audio stack was at the opposite end of the room and completely invisible to the listener. Wherever the same amp was scripted between iterations, I still pulled out and reinserted the banana plugs, going through the same motions to ensure the listener hears the same background sounds between iterations.

I suggest this approach to those who are curious, while I'm sure it loses out in ultimate accuracy to scientific double-blind testing, but gains in relevancy because it uses your equipment, in your acoustical space, with subjects who care about music as you do. It's most satisfying to come to your conclusions based on your own experience rather than swallowing kool-aid from either camp.
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post #382 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

...the turkey is boars head..

Don't see much Boar's Head around here...but I have a soft spot for Jenny-O's sun dried tomato seasoned turkey breast slices..

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #383 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Thanks Theresa - you are of course correct - I am mixing up my woofs and my, er, non-woofs smile.gif  I will correct my post.
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Can you please provide more details of the test?
yes...as soon as I finish my sandwich..lol..what would you like to know?....speakers are paradigm 60s..were all in our early 40s...ears properly working..this test was just for fun..to see or hear what might be different..hold on. (Still eating sandwich).. There's so much to listen for..little details...dynamics..the clicks in the background of steely Dan...etc..etc..were not scientists with special tools or anything..just our ears!..but what details do you want to know about?...the turkey is boars head..the bread..martins potato bread..lol

How/who handled the switching?  Everything level matched?

 

your comment about swapping cables but them thinking you switched amps brings about expectation bias.....seems they knew you changed something hence thinking it sounded different

 

Not bashing your methods as you said it was just for fun, it's just that most of the comments here and in-home tests lack the proper controls for them to be considered valid scientific tests

 

I think this all comes down to two different mindsets:  those of the analytical/science/engineering mindset who understand all the variables and impact on what they hear and the need for proper testing  vs those that simply believe what they hear and couldn't care less about anything else

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post #384 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 08:10 PM
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The test was not fair from the start..the JC_1 are mono blocks that cost triple what the other amps cost..so of course it was going to sound better...the denon, was warm,laid back,..the outlaw was very nice but not as transparent as the halo..we also tossed in my parasound a.23 amp..on the denon, you could not even hear the claps in the Sade song...they were completely missing!
A good amp is very neutral.. Nothing pops out at you..you just hear all the music just the way its suppose to be heard...this thread is just going back and forth..I'm not trying to proof nothing..I know!..as I said before cables..interconnects..and yes even power cords make a difference in what we hear..its OK to not believe..
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post #385 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

Don't see much Boar's Head around here...but I have a soft spot for Jenny-O's sun dried tomato seasoned turkey breast slices..
Now THATS worth talking about..lol. Good stuff!
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post #386 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

The test was not fair from the start..the JC_1 are mono blocks that cost triple what the other amps cost..so of course it was going to sound better...the denon, was warm,laid back,..the outlaw was very nice but not as transparent as the halo..we also tossed in my parasound a.23 amp..on the denon, you could not even hear the claps in the Sade song...they were completely missing!
A good amp is very neutral.. Nothing pops out at you..you just hear all the music just the way its suppose to be heard...this thread is just going back and forth..I'm not trying to proof nothing..I know!..as I said before cables..interconnects..and yes even power cords make a difference in what we hear..its OK to not believe..

costing more does not have to translate to sounding better, that's just what you think and want to happen
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post #387 of 433 Old 11-29-2012, 08:37 PM
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Not true, I already stated that I liked the least expensive EAD over its higher priced brothers. Try again.

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post #388 of 433 Old 11-30-2012, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

The test was not fair from the start..the JC_1 are mono blocks that cost triple what the other amps cost..so of course it was going to sound better...the denon, was warm,laid back,..the outlaw was very nice but not as transparent as the halo..we also tossed in my parasound a.23 amp..on the denon, you could not even hear the claps in the Sade song...they were completely missing!
A good amp is very neutral.. Nothing pops out at you..you just hear all the music just the way its suppose to be heard...this thread is just going back and forth..I'm not trying to proof nothing..I know!..as I said before cables..interconnects..and yes even power cords make a difference in what we hear..its OK to not believe..

rolleyes.gif cables and power cords too...
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post #389 of 433 Old 11-30-2012, 04:37 AM
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rolleyes.gif
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post #390 of 433 Old 11-30-2012, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

As I mentioned earlier, there is no requirement in this forum's policy for all statements or opinions to be rendered with scientific backing. What I don't understand is the relentless dogging of anyone with an opinion that differs from the Borg. wink.gif
We're talking about sound and enjoyment here, not some elaborate technical detail where the Earth is going to be destroyed if we don't get it right. OTOH, December 21st rapidly approaches; relax and enjoy what you have. wink.gif

Not once has anyone suggested that people shouldn't enjoy their gear or buy what they want. What does get questioned are unsupportable subjective opinions that conflict with factual and validated information.
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