Can YOU hear the difference between amplifiers?? - Page 15 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Can you hear the difference between amplifiers?
1 - Absolutely 35 22.73%
2 - Generally Yes 47 30.52%
3 - Undecided... 15 9.74%
4 - Doubtful but perhaps 30 19.48%
5 - Absolutely Not 27 17.53%
Voters: 154. You may not vote on this poll

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post #421 of 433 Old 11-30-2012, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by codoug View Post

This discussion is further confirmation of the findings of psychoacoustics. And the power of confirmation bias (google it).
For one final time: Of course you (and I and most of "the rest of us") can hear differences in various set ups. However, given well-designed, well-manufactured amplifiers, the amplifiers are NOT causing the differences that you hear. There are lots of reasons that you (and I) hear differences, most of them having to do with how fleeting auditory memory is and how powerful our brains' pattern forming circuitry is. As I noted in an earlier post, I have participated in a number of blind (and double blind) listening tests. Neither I nor anyone else in any of the test groups could reliably (better that pure chance) identify different amps by their sound. I also noted that, outside of that "blind" environment, I hear the same subjective differences that everyone here vehemently claims are real and valid. So what? All that proves is that we are all human, all subject to the same psychoacoustic effects, all subject to the entire range of biases that our brains lock us into.
The simple truth is that our senses, via our brains, lie to us.
If anyone is interested, I have access to some wonderful speaker wire salvaged from the damaged Three Mile Island reactor. It features dilithium shielding so no skin effect or gamma ray interference. It has zero impedance loss from DC to light. It also serves as a handy night light. (Shamelessly stolen and paraphrased from an old Bob Carver newsletter).
Wow...your right my brain WAS lying to me the whole time...I just sold all my equipment.. 13k worth and bought a Bose sound wave radio...holy crap!..it sounds just as good!...and I saved all that money that I'm gonna need for therapy now...by the way ..you got any of that 3-mile nuclear speaker wire left? I'm gonna need just a 4' peice after my brain realized what I just did!
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post #422 of 433 Old 11-30-2012, 08:34 PM
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Only 13k worth. Thought the golden ears club had higher standards. wink.gif Your cables and interconnects should be most of that from your previous posts.

Glad to see mankite and eshy continuing the battle but i'd sure love to see them do a double blind type test....

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post #423 of 433 Old 11-30-2012, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esh516 View Post

Too funny!...I know about the pen that's why I asked if it was a serious quote lol...I bought one years ago...used it once..like selling ice to a eskimo

But in an earlier post you said the marker "does make a very very slight difference.. I'm serious!...". So are you an eskimo wink.gif.

Bill


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, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

Denon 4311 (in preamp mode), Parasound 2100, Boston Acoustics A7200 amp, Oppo BDP-103, Consonance CD120, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk Song Towers, Song Center, ADS 300C (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
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post #424 of 433 Old 11-30-2012, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bubbawilly View Post

There are a number of possible answers. He may not have the auditory accuity necessary to discern differences subtle or otherwise, he may be a follower of the Rev. Jim Jones willing to drink the no difference koolaid, or he has something to sell. Typically, those in the first camp acknowledge their physical limitation. Consider the mentality of the second camp prior to engaging in any debate. The last camp will fiercely defend their livelihood. As long as we understand one another we can make informed decisions. Engage at your own risk.

+1

You fought the battle and came to your answer...now its time to move past all this, more confident than ever before you've made the right call. The correct answer is neither one way nor the other, but YOUR way. Emotionally secure people are happy when you're happy.
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post #425 of 433 Old 11-30-2012, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Only 13k worth. Thought the golden ears club had higher standards. wink.gif Your cables and interconnects should be most of that from your previous posts.
Glad to see mankite and eshy continuing the battle but i'd sure love to see them do a double blind type test....
Lol..I Neva said I had golden ears..silver maybe..ha! Guess they are fairly good if I can hear things others can't...and no..I only have about 2600$ in cables..etc..and there worth every penny!..hey..not to change the subject but anyone out there using a anthem Mrx 500 as a pre-amp?
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post #426 of 433 Old 11-30-2012, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

But in an earlier post you said the marker "does make a very very slight difference.. I'm serious!...". So are you an eskimo wink.gif.
Bill
Far from it..I'm in south Florida..funny thing about the pen..I got my new music direct catalog today..and there it is!..best selling tweak 10 yrs running..that's what the add says..lol..and no..I used the pen and thought I noticed something slightly different...but it was the zanex kicking in...sorry
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post #427 of 433 Old 11-30-2012, 09:45 PM
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I just threw a number out there in case the wife see's this post...ha!
I don't have a exact number..and would like to keep it that way!
Anyway..like I said time and time again ..this thread is a no win one for all of us...I'm not trying to convince anyone into what I believe in
Let's just relax and listen to our music!
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post #428 of 433 Old 12-01-2012, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

I never have quite understood the point of all those qualifications to make a statement about an amplifier and to disjoint capability from sound quality. I'm guessing many, but I'm sure not all, people that buy a Corvette don't buy it to operate it like a Chevette all the time. Even if they operate it like a Chevette most of the time, the other times the difference is clear and worth it to them, although to you perhaps it's not worth it just for an occasional blast.
And, since this is a "Science" forum (which, by the way, I've read the rules a number of times and there is no requirement for one's post to be rooted in science) if you go by all measurements it is unlikely that any two amps measure identically. So, it's not a matter of that they do or don't sound the same because they don't. Just from a practical matter you typically can't hear the difference under the highly qualified conditions, i.e. operating the Corvette at Chevette-like levels.

The reason for the conditions "level matched, not faulty and within the comfort zones" is the same reason most every other experiments keep all factors equivalent outside of what is being tested. Since we are testing "sound quality", we need to test within the confines of the "capability" of both amplifiers. Would you test speaker cables and not keep the lengths the same - because if you go too short then you risk not even being able to make a connection and then the test would be dead easy.

As for disjointing capability and sound quality, this is because we don't know what kind of "capability" each person requires. e.g. a person has bought some speakers for his small bedroom, the speakers are rather efficient and easy to drive, he wants to buy an amp, and you come along and tell him that Amp A (more capable amp) sounds heaps better than Amp B based on some test you did where you did not level match, or you drove Amp B into distortion in a room the size of an olympic swimming pool.

Or how about looking at it from the opposite direction. Person A claims that the 25wpc Tube amp sounds so much better than the 250wpc ss amp based on listening tests he did in his bedroom. His friend person B just bought some speakers, inefficient ones and is driving it in a large room and likes to listen to music loud, and takes person A's advice and buys the tube amp and is disappointed.

This is the point many have been trying to make. You buy based on capability and not sound quality because outside of crappy poorly designed/QC'ed products, the sound should not differ audibly between two non faulty amps. Nobody has said anything about throwing out expensive amps and relying on your iPod headphone output to drive your speakers.
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Originally Posted by mankite View Post

The difference between my statements and yours is I'm not trying to convince you to agree with me. I don't care whatcha believe. Why are you worried about what I believe?

Actually, we are discussing, not trying to convince. In a public forum, the reason a lot of people chime in when bs is spread is because there are a great many people who "lurk" and want to learn, if the nonsense goes unchecked, then many of these people will learn the wrong stuff. So it's irrelevant if we are having this discussion with you or with anybody else, it's the subject matter that is under consideration, not the individual. The fact you continue to ignore what is responded to you whilst making a great deal of posts in this thread says you actually do care to convince others of your position (actions speak louder than words).
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

As I mentioned earlier, there is no requirement in this forum's policy for all statements or opinions to be rendered with scientific backing. What I don't understand is the relentless dogging of anyone with an opinion that differs from the Borg. wink.gif
We're talking about sound and enjoyment here, not some elaborate technical detail where the Earth is going to be destroyed if we don't get it right. OTOH, December 21st rapidly approaches; relax and enjoy what you have. wink.gif

There is no requirement agreed. But then, if you are so busy enjoying the sound you get from your equipment, then why post? The fact you post shows you care enough to join in on the discussion - which is all it really is. Nobody is being sold anything, nobody is being asked to convert, nobody is going to be punished for having the wrong answer.
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Originally Posted by mankite View Post

So if one was to compare a Ferrari to Camry do you have to go under 130mph to make it fair? He likes the Halo better!!! As well he should as its a superb piece.

Comparisons of an amplifiers sound quality is not analogous to the top speed of a car. The discussion is around whether amps sound different, not about whether all amps are equally capable (which nobody is claiming). If you are going to participate in this discussion, at the very least, learn to read what others have posted.
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post #429 of 433 Old 12-01-2012, 03:29 PM
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No amp is perfect so they will sound different.

Mankite
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post #430 of 433 Old 12-01-2012, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mankite View Post

No amp is perfect so they will sound different.

assuming of course that all differences are audible, which is kinda the main question . . .
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post #431 of 433 Old 12-01-2012, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mankite View Post

No amp is perfect so they will sound different.

There is no question that whenever there is are audible differences, there are one or more corresponding measurable differences.

There is also no question that measurable differences cannot be heard by anybody, even under the most sensitive listening condidtions, if they are small enough.

Therefore there are measurable differences that are so small that they can't be heard.

So, just because because there are differences, doesn't mean that they are necessarily audible.
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post #432 of 433 Old 12-01-2012, 04:40 PM
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Ya know...amps do sound the same ,if you are walking around,cleaning house ,you know..not really paying attention..its when you sit in the sweet spot..with absoulutly no distractions..just critically listening ,that's when you (or I) notice the difference..I really don't understand when..to me..the diffrence is sooo obvious.. Its like going from standard def. To high def.. Anyway I'm jumping ship to another thread..I am not trying to proof anything all my post have been my own observations and my own beliefs..I will drop by to see how this is all going from time to time..by the way anyone wanna buy a Bose wave radio for 25$...ha!
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post #433 of 433 Old 12-01-2012, 08:42 PM
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Probably should have locked it earlier....

Thank you
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