Is it my receiver or speakers that's under powered? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 20 Old 11-19-2012, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys,

I have a Yamaha RX-V467 paired with KEF bookshelf speakers and center.

Subwoofer: BIC F-12

I've always noticed it took quite a bit for these speakers to really shine. When watching a bluray, I have to crank it to around -10db. Normal tv viewing, it's probably sitting around -23db. With black friday around the corner, I was thinking about upgrading to floor standing speakers and moving these to the rear; however, I am thinking what if my receiver isn't powerful enough for an upgrade...

What are your thoughts on my setup and what I should upgrade next. I watch most of my content from my HTPC. TV shows & movies. Little music.
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post #2 of 20 Old 11-19-2012, 11:15 AM
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^^^

assuming you have run ypao, those volume levels sound perfecrly normal and in no way indicate that the avr is underpowered...

iow, you are fine...

- chris

 

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post #3 of 20 Old 11-19-2012, 11:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
assuming you have run ypao, those volume levels sound perfecrly normal and in no way indicate that the avr is underpowered...
iow, you are fine...

I have. Thanks. In that case... whats next to upgrade? I want better sound. While it sounds good, it doesn't really blow me away.
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post #4 of 20 Old 11-19-2012, 11:27 AM
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1) speakers/sub...

2) the room they are in...

repeat 1 and 2 until satisfied... smile.gif

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #5 of 20 Old 11-19-2012, 05:49 PM
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Your receiver is fairly modest. And your bookshelf speakers are inefficient.

Your easiest path to "sound that blows you away" is some efficient (90db+) 8 ohm speakers.
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post #6 of 20 Old 11-19-2012, 06:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Hm... anyone know of a set of floor standing speakers I can grab for around $300 (pair)? I almost got the Polk 70s on newegg for $300 the other day... then I read some reviews that argued other bookshelf speakers being better for cheaper.
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post #7 of 20 Old 11-19-2012, 06:27 PM
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Frys has been selling some nice JBL floor standing towers for <$300 about 50% off..
The JBLs are very efficient and a real 50W/CH amplifier powers them nicely..

Just my $0.02.. wink.gif
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post #8 of 20 Old 11-19-2012, 08:32 PM
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Fry's also has the Infinity P363 towers for $109 each.

Afro GT
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post #9 of 20 Old 11-19-2012, 08:34 PM
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Check Vann's.com for some Klipsch speakers. Very efficient and great for TV and movies.

Klipsch RF 7 based HT 7.4, Pioneer SC 35, Acurus 200 Five, Dayton 18 Ultimxa Dual Sub Cab(2), Dayton 18 Ultimax Large Vented Sub Cab (2), on Berhinger I Nuke DPS amps, Samsung BDP F 7500, Asus/My Book Live HPC 4 TB

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post #10 of 20 Old 11-20-2012, 03:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Is there a consensus on what's the best bang for the buck floor standing speakers for my price range?

I don't have a Frys near me (NJ), so I'd have to ship. Could you guys provide suggested models? I don't want to buy completely blind.

Tapped and talked.
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post #11 of 20 Old 11-20-2012, 04:20 AM
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I saw a black Friday ad for best buy that had half price Klipsch floor standers listed. Don't remember the model number.

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post #12 of 20 Old 11-20-2012, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalJason View Post

Your receiver is fairly modest.

There are 3 relevant truths:

(1) Just about every AVR has 100 wpc +/- 3 dB.

(2) Very few people are troubled by clipping in the power amps of their AVR.

(3) It takes 10 dB more power to create the impression of doubled loudness. That's 10 times! IOW you next power amp needs to be rated at no less then 1 KW/channel 8 ohms, low distortion.
Quote:
And your bookshelf speakers are inefficient.

Read and reconsider:

http://www.kef.com/html/us/showroom/hi-fi_series/c_series/fact_sheet/bookshelf/c3/index.html

If 88 dB/W speakers are "inefficient" home audio speakers then there is a blizzard in San Diego today. ;-)

His speakers have average efficiency.
Quote:
Your easiest path to "sound that blows you away" is some efficient (90db+) 8 ohm speakers.

88 db is only 2 dB less than 90 dB. While I see home speakers rated at 95 dB efficiency, I suspect that at least some of that is specsmanship. That all said 95 dB is only 7 dB more than 88 dB and thats still less than 10 dB.

As I pointed out in the discussion of amplifier power, 3 dB more loudness isn't a good justication for even just a chicken to cross the road. ;-)

The weakest parts of his system are the cheap subwoofer, room acoustics and system setup.

Running YPAO is just the beginning when it comes to system tuning.

Just because his sub has a 12" driver doesn't mean it has enough Xmax to blow your nose. The anemic 150 watt (rms? peak? PMPO?) power amp driving it is probably a tacit admission of the fact.
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post #13 of 20 Old 11-20-2012, 05:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

There are 3 relevant truths:
(1) Just about every AVR has 100 wpc +/- 3 dB.
(2) Very few people are troubled by clipping in the power amps of their AVR.
(3) It takes 10 dB more power to create the impression of doubled loudness. That's 10 times! IOW you next power amp needs to be rated at no less then 1 KW/channel 8 ohms, low distortion.
Read and reconsider:
http://www.kef.com/html/us/showroom/hi-fi_series/c_series/fact_sheet/bookshelf/c3/index.html
If 88 dB/W speakers are "inefficient" home audio speakers then there is a blizzard in San Diego today. ;-)
His speakers have average efficiency.
88 db is only 2 dB less than 90 dB. While I see home speakers rated at 95 dB efficiency, I suspect that at least some of that is specsmanship. That all said 95 dB is only 7 dB more than 88 dB and thats still less than 10 dB.
As I pointed out in the discussion of amplifier power, 3 dB more loudness isn't a good justication for even just a chicken to cross the road. ;-)
The weakest parts of his system are the cheap subwoofer, room acoustics and system setup.
Running YPAO is just the beginning when it comes to system tuning.
Just because his sub has a 12" driver doesn't mean it has enough Xmax to blow your nose. The anemic 150 watt (rms? peak? PMPO?) power amp driving it is probably a tacit admission of the fact.

I'm frequently dismayed when I see efficiency "specs" given for speakers taken as gospel truth when in reality they are more marketing than anything else. There are 86/db/watt/meter that have 90db given as their efficiency.
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post #14 of 20 Old 11-20-2012, 05:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g_bartman View Post

I saw a black Friday ad for best buy that had half price Klipsch floor standers listed. Don't remember the model number.

Are they any good?
http://goo.gl/rURRh - $175 ea
http://goo.gl/eGlKv

Reading through this thread, seems like mixed opinions. Guess I'd have to listen in person. In the meantime, isn't there a popular go-to value speaker? Is it the Polk 70 and did I screw up by not biting on $300 for the pair?
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post #15 of 20 Old 11-20-2012, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilfleck View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by g_bartman View Post

I saw a black Friday ad for best buy that had half price Klipsch floor standers listed. Don't remember the model number.

Are they any good?
http://goo.gl/rURRh - $175 ea

Something wrong someplace. If this is a 2-way ported floorstander with a waveguide tweeter, what's that second 6 1/2" whatsis on the front of the speaker?

No way can a single 6 1/2 speaker be the cure for a 12 inch long-stroke subwoofer that ain't there!

At least the picture matches the speaker's specs.

However the same basic truth applies.

No way can two 6 1/2 speakesr be the cure for a 12 inch long-stroke subwoofer that ain't there!
Quote:
Reading through this thread, seems like mixed opinions.

Yup, and you just ignored a big chunk of it.
Quote:
Guess I'd have to listen in person.

Not my favorite answer. The sound of speakers is profoundly affected by the room they are in and the setup. If you are going to audition speakers meaningfully, do it right (in your listening room, with an optimized setup for that speaker) or don't do it at all!

Quote:
In the meantime, isn't there a popular go-to value speaker? Is it the Polk 70 and did I screw up by not biting on $300 for the pair?

Your biggest mistake so far involved things like not learning how to spell Hsu, and/or not spending $500 or more on a decent subwoofer. ;-)
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post #16 of 20 Old 11-20-2012, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilfleck View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by g_bartman View Post

I saw a black Friday ad for best buy that had half price Klipsch floor standers listed. Don't remember the model number.

Are they any good?
http://goo.gl/rURRh - $175 ea
http://goo.gl/eGlKv

Reading through this thread, seems like mixed opinions. Guess I'd have to listen in person. In the meantime, isn't there a popular go-to value speaker? Is it the Polk 70 and did I screw up by not biting on $300 for the pair?

Sure there are, the polk monitors, the andrew jones pioneers, and the infinity P363's are among the most commonly referenced budget speakers talked about on this site. Start with one of them.

You shoulda got the polk monitor 70's when you had the chance instead of second guessing yourself. tongue.gif

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post #17 of 20 Old 11-20-2012, 12:58 PM
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Newegg is having a black friday special on the Polk Monitor 60's. $99 each with free shipping.

wink.gif
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post #18 of 20 Old 11-20-2012, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilfleck View Post

I want better sound.

If that is your goal then going to Polk monitor series is taking a backward step from that goal. Louder? Likely. So if your equating loud with better than get the Polks. If you want something better than you might need to spend a little more.

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post #19 of 20 Old 11-27-2012, 07:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Are the Polk Monitor 60 and 70 not as good quality as my KEF bookshelfs? The floorstanding KEF's are definitely out of my price range and unfortunately, there are no local retailers who carry KEF anymore frown.gif
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post #20 of 20 Old 11-27-2012, 08:11 AM
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I have the Polk M60, and while they sound great for a budget floorstander I wish I would have spent a little more money. I would suggest looking at premier acoustic and bic acoustech floorstanders. The prices on these are around the price of polk monitor series but the driver and build quality is that of the RTI series and upper end Klipsh. I recently just picked up the premier acoustic pa-6s for my side surrounds and they sound so much better than any speaker in my system right now (lol?). A neighbor has the Premier Acoustic PA-8F which he bought for his game room (I convinced him after having purchased the pa-150 sub). They sounded so awesome, we both agreed they sounded better than his Polk RTI A7 (who would have thought), so now the Premier acoustics sit in his main theater and the Polks in his game room. The premiers can be had for close to $400 for a pair and the PA-6F for probably less than the Monitors you were looking at that will absolutely destroy them. They are still doing their Black Friday deals too (as far as it looks from the website), I'd look into it.

I haven't heard the Bic Acoustech's in person, so I have no real world experience with them, I've only read and researched and everything I've seen has been positive. To me they are the ID Klipsch speakers and the Premiers are the ID Polk speakers (They have no relation this is all just perception).

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