Pioneer SC-1222-K Anyone? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 385 Old 01-26-2013, 02:23 AM
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Originally Posted by GaryWA View Post

Yeah, I believe Audyssey (Denon's room correction software) does allow you to set different crossovers.

Have you taken a look at the 23xx? I'm pretty sure there isn't much of a difference between the two and it's a lot cheaper. (I think)

The main difference will be for the pre-outs and trigger options. I am going to eventually use an external amp to power at least the front 3 speakers. That's why I am looking at the 33xx series. I was looking at the 1222, but no 12v triggers.

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post #182 of 385 Old 01-26-2013, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by javygonx View Post

Hi, I dont have a server to host it but sure, lets do this so everyone can try it. I cant say if its much better than the mcacc guide availble on the net. But I can assure is more simple, easy and with great results. This document is only the basics. Later I will do a more advanced procedure. Its in the works right now. But I can guarantee that this first version works great. Just 5 pages of document. I wiil port it to pdf too. So if you have the server then let me know and we can start working on it. Thanks to all for being interested in this guide. I want to hear any feedbacks from it. Thank you.

Can always use something like DropBox. Upload the file, right click it to get the public link, then post the link here.

If it gets a TON of downloads DropBox will stop traffic to it for a while, but I dont the file would get *that* many downloads.

BTW, my Onkyo 809 is going back and this Pioneer is on the way.
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post #183 of 385 Old 01-26-2013, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by GaryWA View Post

Yep. That's one thing about Pioneer I don't like, universal crossover. Other brands you can set a crossover for each individual speaker. But oh well, not a big deal.

This was my biggest hangup before ordering this receiver.

My rear surrounds are just tiny cubes, for WAF reasons (and I agree.....didnt want honkin speakers hanging on the walls in our "open" floorplan). They can only go down to 150Hz safely. Yet my fronts can be crossed at 80Hz (and possibly even lower, but 80 is fine)

Was able to determine the small cubes have a 150Hz high pass filter, so anything below 150 gets "dropped" anyway. Going to set the global xover value at 80Hz, it means Ill have a "hole" from 80 to 150 in the surrounds, but I dont think thats a big deal....and in fact that must be how its been forever since the surrounds themselves were dropping everything under 150 anyway. Bass between 80 and 150 is routed to the sub *right now* but I really dont think its THAT much bass (would be an interesting question - how much bass gets sent to a surround speaker?)

Since 99% of my music listening is 2 channel, the surrounds wont be running during music use. For HT use I dont think "the hole" really makes a difference. Maybe someday Ill upgrade to normal-size surrounds but I figure if I can make a global xover value work for my situation, anyone can!
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post #184 of 385 Old 01-26-2013, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by chrisexv6 View Post

This was my biggest hangup before ordering this receiver.

My rear surrounds are just tiny cubes, for WAF reasons (and I agree.....didnt want honkin speakers hanging on the walls in our "open" floorplan). They can only go down to 150Hz safely. Yet my fronts can be crossed at 80Hz (and possibly even lower, but 80 is fine)

Was able to determine the small cubes have a 150Hz high pass filter, so anything below 150 gets "dropped" anyway. Going to set the global xover value at 80Hz, it means Ill have a "hole" from 80 to 150 in the surrounds, but I dont think thats a big deal....and in fact that must be how its been forever since the surrounds themselves were dropping everything under 150 anyway. Bass between 80 and 150 is routed to the sub *right now* but I really dont think its THAT much bass (would be an interesting question - how much bass gets sent to a surround speaker?)

Since 99% of my music listening is 2 channel, the surrounds wont be running during music use. For HT use I dont think "the hole" really makes a difference. Maybe someday Ill upgrade to normal-size surrounds but I figure if I can make a global xover value work for my situation, anyone can!

I did not realize this. So for example, i can't set my sub crossover to 80 and adjust other spearks accordingly? I am new to this, but everything I seem to be reading talks about adjusting the crossover on fronts, sub, etc. to help equalize the sound and get the most out of your speakers. I would be interested in getting other opinions on this. Is this a big setback in peopls minds? I wasn't too concerned with the 12v triggers because it sounds like that can be taken care of by some of the power strips/converters out there.
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post #185 of 385 Old 01-26-2013, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryWA View Post

When you set speakers to "small" anything below the crossover point, lets say 80hz gets sent to the sub.

However, if you set it to "large" ALL frequencies are sent to that speaker, regardless of the crossover, or the ability of the speaker to produce those frequencies.

That's why it's recommended to set ALL speakers to "small" and xover at the highest out of your speakers. IE. your surround can only go to 75hz, so set it to 80hz even if your main can go down to 40hz.
What Gary says here is true. Just forgot to mention that LFE goes directly to the sub no matter if your speakers are set to large.
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post #186 of 385 Old 01-26-2013, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by javygonx View Post

What Gary says here is true. Just forgot to mention that LFE goes directly to the sub no matter if your speakers are set to large.

My one quesiton or concern is the global xo on this AVR. I am looking at some Def tech speakers and the fronts have a good range. For example, the specs on the 8060 fronts say set them to large. Everything I read says to set all speakers besides the sub to small. With the xo if i set it at lets say 100 (That seems to be the limitation of the rears/center) am I missing out on all the goodness from the front l/r of the def tech and their dedicated sub in lets say the 30-100 range. I know an HSU will handle the low 20s but I dont want it to handle 20-100, i would like the fronts to do that job. Thoughts? Thank you again for your help on this

http://www.definitivetech.com/products/BP-8060ST-CS-8040HD-System
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post #187 of 385 Old 01-26-2013, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by MNaudioguy View Post

My one quesiton or concern is the global xo on this AVR. I am looking at some Def tech speakers and the fronts have a good range. For example, the specs on the 8060 fronts say set them to large. Everything I read says to set all speakers besides the sub to small. With the xo if i set it at lets say 100 (That seems to be the limitation of the rears/center) am I missing out on all the goodness from the front l/r of the def tech and their dedicated sub in lets say the 30-100 range. I know an HSU will handle the low 20s but I dont want it to handle 20-100, i would like the fronts to do that job. Thoughts? Thank you again for your help on this

http://www.definitivetech.com/products/BP-8060ST-CS-8040HD-System

I answered in "that other forum", but for your towers I actually think you are OK to set them to large. They are full range, Def Tech says to set them to full range, and my guess is they have an internal x-over that routes the bass/non-bass frequencies to the correct drivers. The 10" sub in each of the towers allows them to accept the full range of sound.

Set the global x-over value to 80Hz, since Def Tech says thats the recommended setting for the center channel. Set the center channel and rear surrounds speaker size to SMALL. Now anything under 80Hz meant for the center or the surrounds will get routed to the sub. With the fronts set to LARGE *any* frequency will go to the speakers, then the internal x-over will handle routing them.

I did see Def Tech recommends setting the surrounds to 100Hz, but I wouldnt worry about it....the frequency response goes low enough that even 80Hz should be safe.
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post #188 of 385 Old 01-26-2013, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by chrisexv6 View Post

I answered in "that other forum", but for your towers I actually think you are OK to set them to large. They are full range, Def Tech says to set them to full range, and my guess is they have an internal x-over that routes the bass/non-bass frequencies to the correct drivers. The 10" sub in each of the towers allows them to accept the full range of sound.

Set the global x-over value to 80Hz, since Def Tech says thats the recommended setting for the center channel. Set the center channel and rear surrounds speaker size to SMALL. Now anything under 80Hz meant for the center or the surrounds will get routed to the sub. With the fronts set to LARGE *any* frequency will go to the speakers, then the internal x-over will handle routing them.

I did see Def Tech recommends setting the surrounds to 100Hz, but I wouldnt worry about it....the frequency response goes low enough that even 80Hz should be safe.

In this instance though if i added a dedicated sub, would i miss out on the 80Hz and below range that the fronts can handle? Is that a huge deal? I know I am asking some basic questions and I thank you for your time. I am just wondering if or how i could still keep the fronts handling lets say 50+ and utilizing their sub but having the dedicated sub do its job and really handle that 20-50Hz range. Does that make sense or am i missing something?
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post #189 of 385 Old 01-26-2013, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNaudioguy View Post

In this instance though if i added a dedicated sub, would i miss out on the 80Hz and below range that the fronts can handle? Is that a huge deal? I know I am asking some basic questions and I thank you for your time. I am just wondering if or how i could still keep the fronts handling lets say 50+ and utilizing their sub but having the dedicated sub do its job and really handle that 20-50Hz range. Does that make sense or am i missing something?

The rule is actually very simple:

- If you have speakers really capable to handle low frequency, say as low as 40Hz, set them to LARGE. Bass directed to them will only be handled by them, never driven to the sub. Obviously, in this case, if the speaker can only take 40Hz or above, any low frequency BELOW 40 HZ will be missed if directed to these speakers. IT IS NOT AFFECTED BY THE XOVER at all. XOVER will only affect speakers set to SMALL. If your cubes can only handle 150 HZ or higher, set the XOVER to 150. Bass below to 150 will be handled by the sub but only when directed to the small speakers.
Last but not least, cheap subs normally don't handle very low frequency, most can't go below 30Hz , so SOME bass will be lost anyway . The source is also important, I doubt cable boxes can output very low frequencies, for example.

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post #190 of 385 Old 01-26-2013, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by slimoli View Post

The rule is actually very simple:

- If you have speakers really capable to handle low frequency, say as low as 40Hz, set them to LARGE. Bass directed to them will only be handled by them, never driven to the sub. Obviously, in this case, if the speaker can only take 40Hz or above, any low frequency BELOW 40 HZ will be missed if directed to these speakers. IT IS NOT AFFECTED BY THE XOVER at all. XOVER will only affect speakers set to SMALL. If your cubes can only handle 150 HZ or higher, set the XOVER to 150. Bass below to 150 will be handled by the sub but only when directed to the small speakers.
Last but not least, cheap subs normally don't handle very low frequency, most can't go below 30Hz , so SOME bass will be lost anyway . The source is also important, I doubt cable boxes can output very low frequencies, for example.

Thank you! what if i want to add a HSU 15 at some point. If i leave my fronts set to Large, when would the sub pick up the lower frequency vs. the mains? Is that even possible to do?
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post #191 of 385 Old 01-26-2013, 03:09 PM
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Anyone move from Pioneer 1021/1121 to this receiver? If so, do you feel it is a significant improvement?
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post #192 of 385 Old 01-26-2013, 03:48 PM
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That's my exact upgrade path. I am about to go sell my 1021 on Craigslist. I won't have time to report back on the 1222 until next weekend, but if you want to wait I'll post up a review.
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post #193 of 385 Old 01-26-2013, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNaudioguy View Post

Thank you! what if i want to add a HSU 15 at some point. If i leave my fronts set to Large, when would the sub pick up the lower frequency vs. the mains? Is that even possible to do?
No, once set to large the receiver will send the bass directed to those speakers straight to them. Sub is not involved when you set the speaker to large. If you have a fantastic sub, set everything to small and end of story. In plain English, there is NO WAY to have the sub pick up the lower frequency when you set the speaker to large. If the 1222 had separate Xover per each channel, that would be possible but with a single Xover it's "all or nothing" , either the large speaker or the sub will handle the bass, but not both.
If separate Xover was possible, you could set it to 50 Hz for the large and 120Hz for the cubes, for example. In this case, no bass would be lost above the sub low frequency limit.
I hope I'm not making things even more confusing , let's stick to what the 1222 can do , one single Xover.

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post #194 of 385 Old 01-26-2013, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by GaryWA View Post

That's my exact upgrade path. I am about to go sell my 1021 on Craigslist. I won't have time to report back on the 1222 until next weekend, but if you want to wait I'll post up a review.

Thanks GaryWA! I'm also in the same boat: I purchased the 1021K on newegg just about a year ago (got a great deal on that too). I'm really happy with the setup and the sound. I'm thinking that the class D amps, lower heat, and major wattage boost (150 vs 600watts) will make for a huge upgrade.
Last year I tried the Sony AV Headunits because I use a Bravia TV and I was totally underwhelmed with Sony vs Pioneer. I think that I'll take the plunge into the 1222K also and try it out.
My only concern is that the depth of the head unit is significantly longer than the 1021K. It's also much taller and weights 10pounds more. Here are the differences:
Pioneer SC-1222
17.13" x 7.28" x 17.36"
VS:
1021K:
17.16 x 6.6 x 14.27

Luckily, the width is the same, so it will fit into the standard furniture. Height I don't mind so much as I can move things around. Length however, it's going to be hanging off the rear end of my cabinet.
I wonder whether I will need to get a board or some other sort of stabilizer, etc. Hopefully it will work great.
The nicest thing is that I see 1021 units selling for over $250 on ebay, pretty much what I paid for it!
So, I'm thinking that the total cost of this upgrade will only be about $300 total.

Looking forward to your thoughts Gary, and I'll post mine as well!
-T
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post #195 of 385 Old 01-26-2013, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by slimoli View Post

No, once set to large the receiver will send the bass directed to those speakers straight to them. Sub is not involved when you set the speaker to large. If you have a fantastic sub, set everything to small and end of story. In plain English, there is NO WAY to have the sub pick up the lower frequency when you set the speaker to large. If the 1222 had separate Xover per each channel, that would be possible but with a single Xover it's "all or nothing" , either the large speaker or the sub will handle the bass, but not both.
If separate Xover was possible, you could set it to 50 Hz for the large and 120Hz for the cubes, for example. In this case, no bass would be lost above the sub low frequency limit.
I hope I'm not making things even more confusing , let's stick to what the 1222 can do , one single Xover.

Actually. Yes there is. Please don't spew out misinformation so adamantly when you're not sure.

If you set the Subwoofer to "PLUS" it will get all frequencies in the LFE channel, but it is not recommended if the fronts are set to large because bass cancellation could potentially happen.

Don't believe me?
Page 85. http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/StaticFiles/Manuals/Home/SC-1222-K_OperatingInstructions061112.pdf


@tech, I had to settle for $180 on Craigslist, I didn't want to deal with all the fees plus shipping on ebay.
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post #196 of 385 Old 01-26-2013, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by GaryWA View Post

Actually. Yes there is. Please don't spew out misinformation so adamantly when you're not sure.

.

Who are you to say that ? Mr.Know everything ?
I don't spread misinformation here or anywhere else. I know what I am talking about and clearly you don't.
The PLUS setting on the 1222 or any other Pioneer receiver I know (I had 5 of them, BTW) is just a REPRODUCTION of ALL the bass to the sub. The discussion here is, until your very uninformed post came up, about how to DIRECT THE BASS to the proper channel. The PLUS DOES NOT change the direction of the bass nor has anything to do with large,small,Xover or anything else mentioned here. When PLUS is set and you have a speaker set as large, for example, the same bass will be sent to the sub AND the large speakers. That's not what the original poster was talking or asking about. PLUS will result on an extra bass, not what a real 5.1 or 7.1 should be. The movie director expect you to have every frequency ON THE RIGHT CHANNEL. Using PLUS is like using matrix surround or any other DSP available on AV receivers.
Stop acting like a child and don't make accusations about something you have a lot to learn.

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post #197 of 385 Old 01-26-2013, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by GaryWA View Post

Actually. Yes there is. Please don't spew out misinformation so adamantly when you're not sure.

If you set the Subwoofer to "PLUS" it will get all frequencies in the LFE channel, but it is not recommended if the fronts are set to large because bass cancellation could potentially happen.

Don't believe me?
Page 85. http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/StaticFiles/Manuals/Home/SC-1222-K_OperatingInstructions061112.pdf


@tech, I had to settle for $180 on Craigslist, I didn't want to deal with all the fees plus shipping on ebay.

Thanks Gary! I understand the 1222k has only one global crossover setting. Pioneer must do it for a reason. For my situation should i be looking at somethihng other than the 1222k to have multiple xo's or will i be just as satisfied with the 1222k and the def tech 8060 system? I appreciate any feedback.
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Originally Posted by MNaudioguy View Post

Thanks Gary! I understand the 1222k has only one global crossover setting. Pioneer must do it for a reason. For my situation should i be looking at somethihng other than the 1222k to have multiple xo's or will i be just as satisfied with the 1222k and the def tech 8060 system? I appreciate any feedback.

If you are adamant about having a dedicated sub, I would think those Def Tech speakers might not be your best bet. Those speakers essentially HAVE a dedicated sub in each. The amp is built in, you can connect an LFE channel to them, etc. They would become the ".2" from the 7.2 output of the Pioneer.

Heck, even the center channel has an 8" driver in it. I would think you should have plenty of bass from all of that. If you wanted a dedicated sub, Im sure there are other Def Tech speakers that would work well alongside it, they might even save you some $$$ and space.
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post #199 of 385 Old 01-26-2013, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by chrisexv6 View Post

If you are adamant about having a dedicated sub, I would think those Def Tech speakers might not be your best bet. Those speakers essentially HAVE a dedicated sub in each. The amp is built in, you can connect an LFE channel to them, etc. They would become the ".2" from the 7.2 output of the Pioneer.

Heck, even the center channel has an 8" driver in it. I would think you should have plenty of bass from all of that. If you wanted a dedicated sub, Im sure there are other Def Tech speakers that would work well alongside it, they might even save you some $$$ and space.

I totally hear where you are coming from. I guess since the space is 6500 cubic ft, i figured I would need a dedicated sub eventually becuase these two towers wouldnt totally cut it. Anyway, i appreciate everyone's comments/input. I will drop it on this thread and let a new convo/question get going. I dont want to keep hijacking, haha.
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No, once set to large the receiver will send the bass directed to those speakers straight to them. Sub is not involved when you set the speaker to large. If you have a fantastic sub, set everything to small and end of story. In plain English, there is NO WAY to have the sub pick up the lower frequency when you set the speaker to large.]

That's what I saw. That's what I replied to. Don't kill the messenger.
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post #201 of 385 Old 01-27-2013, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by GaryWA View Post

That's what I saw. That's what I replied to. Don't kill the messenger.

To pick up means to get it from. As I said, it's only possible if the receiver has separate Xover per channel. The PLUS setting won't "pick up" the bass FROM the large speakers, will just REPLICATE the same bass, not the ideal setup for those who want faithful reproduction of the audio. I always assume people here want the best, natural, non-fake sound. Not everybody can appreciate that, I understand. Sometimes I feel sorry for guys who put 2 18" woofers in the trunk and think they have a wonderful sound, but, hey, it's their taste isn't it ?
You could state your opinion without attacking anybody, I would do the same and everybody here could enjoy the forum much better.

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post #202 of 385 Old 01-29-2013, 04:48 AM
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My 1222k arrives in 2 days from Newegg- paid $549 shipped. Anything I should know about the upgrade from the 1021k? Things to be aware of, etc?
Thanks for all of your help-
T
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post #203 of 385 Old 01-29-2013, 10:00 AM
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Review of the Pioneer SC-1222 comparable Pioneer Elite SC-61...


REVIEW: http://www.hometheater.com/content/pioneer-elite-sc-61-av-receiver




Pioneer Elite SC-61 A/V Receiver HT Labs Measures

HT Labs Measures
Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 127.2 watts
1% distortion at 150.3 watts

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 109.0 watts
1% distortion at 127.7 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 99.4 watts
1% distortion at 110.3 watts

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post #204 of 385 Old 01-29-2013, 10:48 AM
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Ah! so Pioneer rep was correct in saying that this receiver doesn't drop power a lot with all channels driven.
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post #205 of 385 Old 01-29-2013, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by techneanderthal View Post

My 1222k arrives in 2 days from Newegg- paid $549 shipped. Anything I should know about the upgrade from the 1021k? Things to be aware of, etc?
Thanks for all of your help-
T
Yes, be awere that you will save on air conditioning. No more heat.

Apart of that, two notes regarding Pandora:

1. You will need to upgrade your unit firmware using a USB stick. The latest firmware is not downloadable from internet directly by the receiver and fixes some issues with Pandora.
2. In order to configure Pandora, use the front panel or the remote for entering into the Pandora login/password setup. Do not use the iOS/Android App, if you do that you will get a server error.

Enjoy the difference between the 20th century AB amps and the 21st century D3 technology.

Regards

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·· AV System
Receiver: Pioneer SC-1222K
Spkrs: homemade monitors + Energy Take Classic 5.1
Display: Samsung UN55ES8000
Src: Comcast DVR / Apple TV 3 / Xbox360 slim / HTPC / AirPlay / Pandora / Bluetooth*

*Pre-processor: Noozxoide EIZO-rewire PRO
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post #206 of 385 Old 01-29-2013, 02:05 PM
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Have looked at the manual online but can't find if this receiver overlays the volume level over OSD. Does it?
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post #207 of 385 Old 01-29-2013, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by KramerTC View Post

Have looked at the manual online but can't find if this receiver overlays the volume level over OSD. Does it?

Nope. Pioneer receivers used to do it if you had a Pioneer display but I'm not sure even this is the case any longer. I would like it as well.

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post #208 of 385 Old 01-29-2013, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OPPIZ View Post

Review of the Pioneer SC-1222 comparable Pioneer Elite SC-61...


REVIEW: http://www.hometheater.com/content/pioneer-elite-sc-61-av-receiver




Pioneer Elite SC-61 A/V Receiver HT Labs Measures

HT Labs Measures
Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 127.2 watts
1% distortion at 150.3 watts

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 109.0 watts
1% distortion at 127.7 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 99.4 watts
1% distortion at 110.3 watts

Those are some very SEXY numbers.


@slimoli, I concede. I should have read the previous conversations. Sorry.
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post #209 of 385 Old 01-29-2013, 03:19 PM
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@slimoli, I concede. I should have read the previous conversations. Sorry.

Thank you . I understand we both were just trying to help a fellow member to understand how the 1222 handles the different frequencies. Not an obvious subject , by any means. We are cool.

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post #210 of 385 Old 01-29-2013, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slimoli View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KramerTC View Post

Have looked at the manual online but can't find if this receiver overlays the volume level over OSD. Does it?

Nope. Pioneer receivers used to do it if you had a Pioneer display but I'm not sure even this is the case any longer. I would like it as well.

Thank you. I think the top model does volume over OSD (without requiring that proprietary connection anymore). I was hoping this model would.
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Pioneer Sc 1222 7 2 Channel Network Ready Av Receiver , Pioneer Elite Sc 55 Sc55 9 1 Channel 3d Ready A V Receiver , Pioneer Elite Sc 68 9 2 Channel Thx Ultra 2 Plus A V Receiver , Pioneer Elite Sc 61 7 2 Channel Network Ready Av Receiver , Pioneer Sc 1522k 9 2 Channel Av Receiver
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