Got the Speakers, Looking for Receiver Guidance - AVS Forum
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:56 AM - Thread Starter
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I was running a Onkyo HTiB system for about 4 to 5 years which replaced another JBL HTiB system that died after 10 years, finally decided to get a nicer set-up. I've been searching for a few months now and after much horse trading via CL my speaker set-up looks to be complete. Will be running a 5.1 set-up, the room is 16' wide by 21' deep by 8' ceilings, one end opens up into the kitchen. The speakers I have put together:

Fronts: Paradigm Reference Studio 40's V2
Center Channel: Paradigm Reference Studio CC 450 V2
Sub: Velodyne CT-100 10" Powered
Rear Surround: Paradigm ADP-190 Dipole

Now it is time to start delving into the receiver search. My Onkyo HTiB system, an HT-SR750 5.1 system had an advertised 110 wpc (http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=HT-SR750&class=Systems&p=s), but I gotta say, those were about the most anemic 110 wpc I've ever heard. I know alot of that had to do with the speakers.

My question to you guys who are much more astute than myself: Is the receiver I have worth keeping vs. upgrading to something better (in the ~$500 range)? I don't mind upgrading but my fear is that whatever I do purchase isn't going to be much better than what I have. Here are some of the receivers I've honed in on:

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXNR709/Onkyo-TX-NR709-7.2-Channel-3-D-Ready-Network-A/V-Receiver/1.html

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXNR809/Onkyo-TX-NR809-7.2-Channel-Network-A/V-Receiver/1.html

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882120205

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARSR5006/Marantz-SR5006-AV-Receiver-with-Networking-and-AirPlay/1.html#!more

I have perused some of the conversations and realize that I will have to expend some more effort educating myself, but figured I'd ask for opinions early on. Thanks......Mark.
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:21 AM
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Some food for thought here: I have had Onkyo for some time now. I like the equipment and what they can do. If you check out the failure thread, you will notice that many of us have had HDMI board failure. IF you decide to stick with Onkyo, make certain you get it from an authorized seller otherwise you may not have a warranty. The board goes out about 1.5 to 2 years from new. If you get a refurb, they usually only come with a 1 year warranty, rather than 2. Also, some of us have opted for the additional 2 years of extended warranty. The part numbers of the HDMI boards have changed, indicating some kind of redesign, but there are a couple of second time failures. Nobody really knows if the new boards will fail again or not.

I know this doesn't answer your question, but I felt it is information that you might find valuable.

John
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:00 AM
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All those Onkyo's you have listed will be better than what you have. However, given all the problems Onkyo has had, I'd be a little hesitant before purchasing. The Marantz is a very nice receiver so that would be a solid choice. I would also look at the Denon 2312CI at ac4l too. While Sony's are usually crap, the new DN1030 has gotten some pretty favorable reviews and might be worth a look.
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:14 AM
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Any receiver with audyssey multeq (or equivalent room correction software....if there is such a thing tongue.gif) or higher level of room correction will be a step above what you got. The Onkyo 709 and 809 will be a remarkable upgrade over what you got due to the feature sets alone and the fact they use multeq xt. I have an 809 and it is fabulous and has not missed a beat (yet anyway....knock on wood).

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coreseller View Post

I was running a Onkyo HTiB system for about 4 to 5 years which replaced another JBL HTiB system that died after 10 years, finally decided to get a nicer set-up. I've been searching for a few months now and after much horse trading via CL my speaker set-up looks to be complete. Will be running a 5.1 set-up, the room is 16' wide by 21' deep by 8' ceilings, one end opens up into the kitchen. The speakers I have put together:
Fronts: Paradigm Reference Studio 40's V2
Center Channel: Paradigm Reference Studio CC 450 V2
Sub: Velodyne CT-100 10" Powered
Rear Surround: Paradigm ADP-190 Dipole
Now it is time to start delving into the receiver search. My Onkyo HTiB system, an HT-SR750 5.1 system had an advertised 110 wpc (http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=HT-SR750&class=Systems&p=s), but I gotta say, those were about the most anemic 110 wpc I've ever heard. I know alot of that had to do with the speakers.
My question to you guys who are much more astute than myself: Is the receiver I have worth keeping vs. upgrading to something better (in the ~$500 range)? I don't mind upgrading but my fear is that whatever I do purchase isn't going to be much better than what I have. Here are some of the receivers I've honed in on:
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXNR709/Onkyo-TX-NR709-7.2-Channel-3-D-Ready-Network-A/V-Receiver/1.html
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXNR809/Onkyo-TX-NR809-7.2-Channel-Network-A/V-Receiver/1.html
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882120205
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARSR5006/Marantz-SR5006-AV-Receiver-with-Networking-and-AirPlay/1.html#!more
I have perused some of the conversations and realize that I will have to expend some more effort educating myself, but figured I'd ask for opinions early on. Thanks......Mark.

The amplifier sections of all the receivers linked, do not vary significantly from the receiver you currently have. Buying any of those receivers won't make your system any louder.

What exactly do you feel you're lacking? Is it just volume?
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NorCalJason View Post

The amplifier sections of all the receivers linked, do not vary significantly from the receiver you currently have. Buying any of those receivers won't make your system any louder.
What exactly do you feel you're lacking? Is it just volume?

That is the info I was looking for although I must admit I was hoping for a different answer. Yes I am looking for more volume and obviously better sound clarity, wasn't sure if better speakers alone were the answer, looks like I'll give it a try. The advertised 110 wpc astound me as to their weakness, especially in comparison the my garage set-up of 50 wpc NAD receiver pushing 4 EV floor standing speakers. Once again, maybe it's just the low quality of the Onkyo's HTiB speakers.

I was told by another fellow that the amp sections were nowhere near alike between what I currently have vs. the newer Onkyo options listed. How do you look into that?

Lastly, in looking over CL and Ebay, I sure noticed that Onkyo had what seemed to be more of their fair share of broken units up for sale "as is, or for parts". Looks like there's an obvious reason per the posts above.
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 67jason View Post

Any receiver with audyssey multeq (or equivalent room correction software....if there is such a thing tongue.gif) or higher level of room correction will be a step above what you got. The Onkyo 709 and 809 will be a remarkable upgrade over what you got due to the feature sets alone and the fact they use multeq xt. I have an 809 and it is fabulous and has not missed a beat (yet anyway....knock on wood).

Actually the system I have did indeed come with a corded microphone that I had to place in various positions in the room for initial set-up, sound like the same thing?
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coreseller View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalJason View Post

The amplifier sections of all the receivers linked, do not vary significantly from the receiver you currently have. Buying any of those receivers won't make your system any louder.

I'll second the above

Here's some more details.

To obtain significantly more volume with more amplifier power takes a horrendous amount more power. Twice the loudness takes 10 times the power. Just about everything with a power cord has 50 watts so 10 times that is 500 watts and receivers that do 500 watts are mostly made out of unobtainium.
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That is the info I was looking for although I must admit I was hoping for a different answer. Yes I am looking for more volume and obviously better sound clarity, wasn't sure if better speakers alone were the answer, looks like I'll give it a try. The advertised 110 wpc astound me as to their weakness, especially in comparison the my garage set-up of 50 wpc NAD receiver pushing 4 EV floor standing speakers. Once again, maybe it's just the low quality of the Onkyo's HTiB speakers.

Yes, the speakers matter lots!, the room acoustics matter, speaker placement matters.

HTIB speakers are all over the map, but most of the pale in comparison with even modest separates. Polk and Infinity are good places to start.
Quote:
I was told by another fellow that the amp sections were nowhere near alike between what I currently have vs. the newer Onkyo options listed. How do you look into that?

You can look at power ratings, but for the real details you get AVR service manuals and analyze the schematics.
Quote:
Lastly, in looking over CL and Ebay, I sure noticed that Onkyo had what seemed to be more of their fair share of broken units up for sale "as is, or for parts". Looks like there's an obvious reason per the posts above.

The AVR market is very competitive and there are many options. If Onkyo gives you a bad feeling, screw 'em! You still have Yamaha, Pioneer, Sony, etc..etc., etc.
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Arny. Given your post count and length of time on the board your opinion certainly deserves my credence. Once again, here are the speakers I have:

Fronts: Paradigm Reference Studio 40's V2
Center Channel: Paradigm Reference Studio CC 450 V2
Sub: Velodyne CT-100 10" Powered
Rear Surround: Paradigm ADP-190 Dipole

In your opinion would I be better served pursuing a Yamaha (a friends advice) in the $500 to $600 range to replace the Onkyo unit I have? Here are the Onkyo's specs:

Amplifier Section

Power Output -
Power Output -
Front L/R 110 W + 110 W (8 ohms, 1 kHz, 2 channels driven, FTC)
Front L/R 110 W + 110 W (8 ohms, 1 kHz, 2 channels driven, FTC)
Center 110 W (8 ohms, 1 kHz, 2 channels driven, FTC)
Center 110 W (8 ohms, 1 kHz, 2 channels driven, FTC)
Surround L/R 110 W + 110 W (8 ohms, 1 kHz, 2 channels driven, FTC)
Surround L/R 110 W + 110 W (8 ohms, 1 kHz, 2 channels driven, FTC)
Surround Back L/R -
Surround Back L/R -
Dynamic Power 210 W (3 ohms, 1 ch)
190 W (4 ohms, 1 ch)
130 W (8 ohms, 1 ch)
Dynamic Power 210 W (3 ohms, 1 ch)
190 W (4 ohms, 1 ch)
130 W (8 ohms, 1 ch)
THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) 0.08 % (Rated power)
THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) 0.08 % (Rated power)
Damping Factor 60 (Front, 1 kHz, 8 ohms)
Damping Factor 60 (Front, 1 kHz, 8 ohms)
Input Sensitivity and Impedance 200 mV/47 k-ohms (Line)
Input Sensitivity and Impedance 200 mV/47 k-ohms (Line)
Output Level and Impedance 200 mV/2.2 k- ohms (Rec out)
Output Level and Impedance 200 mV/2.2 k- ohms (Rec out)
Frequency Response 5 Hz–100 kHz/ +1 dB, -3 dB (Direct mode)
Frequency Response 5 Hz–100 kHz/ +1 dB, -3 dB (Direct mode)
Tone Control ±10 dB, 50 Hz (Bass)
±10 dB, 20 kHz (Treble)
Tone Control ±10 dB, 50 Hz (Bass)
±10 dB, 20 kHz (Treble)
Signal-to-Noise Ratio 100 dB (Line, IHF-A)
Signal-to-Noise Ratio 100 dB (Line, IHF-A)
Speaker Impedance 8 ohms–16 ohms
Speaker Impedance 8 ohms–16 ohms
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Old 12-11-2012, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by coreseller View Post

Thanks Arny. Given your post count and length of time on the board your opinion certainly deserves my credence. Once again, here are the speakers I have:

Fronts: Paradigm Reference Studio 40's V2
Center Channel: Paradigm Reference Studio CC 450 V2
Sub: Velodyne CT-100 10" Powered
Rear Surround: Paradigm ADP-190 Dipole

In your opinion would I be better served pursuing a Yamaha (a friends advice) in the $500 to $600 range to replace the Onkyo unit I have? Here are the Onkyo's specs:

My Onkyo HTiB system, an HT-SR750 5.1 system had an advertised 110 wpc (http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=HT-SR750&class=Systems&p=s), but I gotta say, those were about the most anemic 110 wpc I've ever heard. I know alot of that had to do with the speakers.

More germane is the sensitivity of the satellites for the HTSR 750 system which were 82 dB/W/m. per your reference above. Not all that efficient. Their size is : 6 5/16" x 13 3/8" x 3 11/16" (161 x 340 x 93 mm)

The Paradigms you are looking at are rated at 92 dB / 89 dB per http://www.paradigm.com/products/archives/paradigm-reference/studio-series/studio-40

The minimum of 7 dB addtiional efficiency is something like having 6 times the amp power! Their far greater volume displacment from dimenions of 22 in x 8-1/4 in x 12-3/4 in suggest that they will have more bottom end as well. I'm wary of speaker FR ratings period and when there is no +/= dB I'm really worried!

The big difference I see in the AVRs is the automated tuning system which seems to be pretty basic-to-almost non existent in your existing receiver. Tell you what. Do the speaker upgrade, listen to it for a while and make up your own mind about the receiver upgrade. The speaker upgrade should have huge benefits! Also, don't forge t about room acoustics.
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

More germane is the sensitivity of the satellites for the HTSR 750 system which were 82 dB/W/m. per your reference above. Not all that efficient. Their size is : 6 5/16" x 13 3/8" x 3 11/16" (161 x 340 x 93 mm)
The Paradigms you are looking at are rated at 92 dB / 89 dB per http://www.paradigm.com/products/archives/paradigm-reference/studio-series/studio-40
The minimum of 7 dB addtiional efficiency is something like having 6 times the amp power! Their far greater volume displacment from dimenions of 22 in x 8-1/4 in x 12-3/4 in suggest that they will have more bottom end as well. I'm wary of speaker FR ratings period and when there is no +/= dB I'm really worried!
The big difference I see in the AVRs is the automated tuning system which seems to be pretty basic-to-almost non existent in your existing receiver. Tell you what. Do the speaker upgrade, listen to it for a while and make up your own mind about the receiver upgrade. The speaker upgrade should have huge benefits! Also, don't forge t about room acoustics.


"The minimum of 7 dB addtiional efficiency is something like having 6 times the amp power!"

Now we're getting somewhere.........Thanks again Arny, I'll hook up the speakers when I get home from this work trip next weekend. Gonna have to figure out how to hook up the Velodyne sub, it's rear connections don't look like they'll jive with the single cable going from receiver to onkyo sub now.
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by coreseller View Post

Thanks Arny. Given your post count and length of time on the board your opinion certainly deserves my credence. Once again, here are the speakers I have:
Fronts: Paradigm Reference Studio 40's V2
Center Channel: Paradigm Reference Studio CC 450 V2
Sub: Velodyne CT-100 10" Powered
Rear Surround: Paradigm ADP-190 Dipole
In your opinion would I be better served pursuing a Yamaha (a friends advice) in the $500 to $600 range to replace the Onkyo unit I have? Here are the Onkyo's specs:

Again, a change in brand isn't going to make your system any louder.

The only solution to that problem is tons of clean power. That means a separate amplifier... And THAT means $$$$.00

Before going that far, are you sure everything is setup correctly?
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Again, a change in brand isn't going to make your system any louder.
The only solution to that problem is tons of clean power. That means a separate amplifier... And THAT means $$$$.00
Before going that far, are you sure everything is setup correctly?

Well, it all started out as a total revamp from the original Onkyo HTiB system I described above, scored the speakers over the past few weeks / months of searching then figured the next logical step was to purchase another receiver. I originally was thinking NAD but many others started pointing me towards Onkyo again, well that idea got shot down in short order here.

As to your set-up question, I haven't even set the new speakers up yet. My original question addressed whether or not the new Onkyo options I linked above were going to be a worthwhile upgrade vs. the Onkyo Receiver that came with the HTiB system I already have.
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by coreseller View Post

As to your set-up question, I haven't even set the new speakers up yet. My original question addressed whether or not the new Onkyo options I linked above were going to be a worthwhile upgrade vs. the Onkyo Receiver that came with the HTiB system I already have.

Wait... Now I"m confused. You haven't even hooked up your speakers yet, but want louder sound?

eek.gif
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Wait... Now I"m confused. You haven't even hooked up your speakers yet, but want louder sound?
eek.gif

Confused doesn't come close to describing me at this point lol. eek.gif

Main Question, forgetting anything I said about speakers;

Is the receiver I have worth keeping vs. upgrading to something better (in the ~$500 range)?

Again, I do appreciate the help.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:13 PM
 
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I remember my first beer! tongue.gif
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Old 12-12-2012, 01:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coreseller View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 67jason View Post

Any receiver with audyssey multeq (or equivalent room correction software....if there is such a thing tongue.gif) or higher level of room correction will be a step above what you got. The Onkyo 709 and 809 will be a remarkable upgrade over what you got due to the feature sets alone and the fact they use multeq xt. I have an 809 and it is fabulous and has not missed a beat (yet anyway....knock on wood).

Actually the system I have did indeed come with a corded microphone that I had to place in various positions in the room for initial set-up, sound like the same thing?

same thing....no...similar....yes. Your current receiver uses audyssey 2EQ which does nothing for sub woofer frequencies. Upgrading to multeq or XT or XT32 will provide audible benefits and his highly recommended if you have a sub in your set up.

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!
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Old 12-12-2012, 05:23 AM - Thread Starter
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same thing....no...similar....yes. Your current receiver uses audyssey 2EQ which does nothing for sub woofer frequencies. Upgrading to multeq or XT or XT32 will provide audible benefits and his highly recommended if you have a sub in your set up.


Thanks for your help Jason.
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Old 12-12-2012, 05:41 AM - Thread Starter
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I remember my first beer! tongue.gif

How insightful...................

I'm guessing the two main problems are my comparative lack of knowledge on the topic (which is why I came here) and difficulties communicating what I am trying to find out via describing / typing things out. Some responses were also made without fully reading my prior posts, something I've done before myself.

Thanks again guys for the advice, I'm going to try a few things then if unhappy with the results will purchase another receiver.
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Old 12-12-2012, 06:11 AM
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Gonna have to figure out how to hook up the Velodyne sub, it's rear connections don't lo
ok like they'll jive with the single cable going from receiver to onkyo sub now.




Hope this helps.
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:20 AM
 
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aww come on! never seen "Beerfest" or "Step brothers" ? Youtube it. Meant as a joke. smile.gif
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Old 12-12-2012, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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aww come on! never seen "Beerfest" or "Step brothers" ? Youtube it. Meant as a joke. smile.gif

Didn't know you AVS guys had a sense of humor......smile.gif Sorry bout that HC, been a very ugly week and no I didn't make the connection. Being new here along with not knowing squat nor how to convey anything has me a bit frazzled.

Thanks for the diagram Arny. My current Onkyo Sub has 1, and only one RCA looking plug that goes into it from the current Onkyo HTiB Receiver. Here is what the rear of my New Velodyne Sub looks like, any ideas where to put it? Input Red / Right?

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Old 12-15-2012, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, got back into town and yesterday and got busy this morning hooking the new speakers up to the old HTiB receiver, incredible improvement. Only issue is the Velodyne Subwoofer, all I get is a hum when I hook up the one outgoing wire from the receiver to it. I tested it using the speaker inputs / outputs on the kids basement stereo, works fine hooked up that way, I REALLY don't want to have to run speaker wires from receiver to sub location then from sub to F / R speakers in my family room, that would entail untold wire fishing nightmares. I'm thinking this is where the original HTiB receiver is truly showing it's limitations and ultimately push me into another receiver. I've tried all the inputs along with toggling the switches, any ideas?

Above is the pic of the Velodyne hookups, below is a pic of the HTiB Sub I am replacing to show what I am talking about, One Line Input:

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