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post #1 of 166 Old 12-17-2012, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello everyone....my name is Charles
I have just recently re-done my MAN-CAVE...and Iv bought the Pioneer Elite SC-67 along with Polk Audio's RTiA9's for my mains...they sound pretty good...but these monsters suck up the power like crazy !! Now ...I like to really crank it up at tymz....and my SC-67 at 130 watts per channel will clip when I turn it up....I was thinking of buying the Emotiva XPR-2 / 600x2 power amp....I want a lotta head room so that it is effortless to power these hungry speakers....What do uall think ???
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post #2 of 166 Old 12-17-2012, 09:34 PM
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I think it would be WAY overkill for those speakers, but if you've got the money to burn why not. If it were me, for that setup, I would save myself $900 and get the XPA-3 (or even the UPA-2) and put the rest into room treatments if you don't have any. You'd get much better improvement in sound quality for the money spent. Those speakers should only need ~128W or so to hit 105dB each at ~ 10'. You can even step up to the XPA-2 if you need a little more power, but I would doubt it without knowing your specific setup. Anything over that would be wasted. Your Polks are fairly efficient.

I have some fairly inefficient speakers (Revel Performa F52) and can barely hear a difference between my Denon 4311 vs. the XPA-2. Only when I crank it up over 95dB do I hear a slightly smoother response in the higher frequencies when attached to the XPA-2. Even then, I really have to be listening critically to notice it.
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post #3 of 166 Old 12-17-2012, 10:37 PM - Thread Starter
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....Ok....Emotiva does make an XPR/300x2....and its 1/2 the price of the 600x2....I really looking for power and clarity....and no strain on the amps....my Pioneer Elite SC67 gets loud enuff....but its working very hard...I was thinking that if I had a great power amp with alotta head room....it would solve my issue....????
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post #4 of 166 Old 12-17-2012, 11:07 PM
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Sounds like way over kill to me eek.gif.

600 watts per channel available power to power 90dB efficient 8 ohm speakers at a distance of say 10 feet will get you enough volume to make your ears bleed. You will likely never use more then a fraction of the available power to achieve you desired listening levels. What you dont use is not going to do anything for you.

Also doesn't the new xpr line of amps require its own dedicated 20 amp circuit in order to put out its maximum power rating?
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post #5 of 166 Old 12-17-2012, 11:21 PM - Thread Starter
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OOOO...thts a very good ??? That wld really sukk if Iget one of these and I cant power it up...Il check into it right away.
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post #6 of 166 Old 12-18-2012, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 67jason View Post

Also doesn't the new xpr line of amps require its own dedicated 20 amp circuit in order to put out its maximum power rating?

If you're going to bench test it at full rated power that'd probably be true but for music/movie the average/continuous load never approaches that.

Sounds like it's supplied with a power cord having a NMEA 5-20 plug so, yes, it may be a technical requirement to comply. Although, I still don't believe it would be any problem, materially, operating on a 15A circuit..

I run amps as, or more, powerful than the XPR-2. While I do have a couple dedicated 20A circuits, I run two amps (one QSC PLX 3402 and one PLX 2402) on each circuit and have never tripped a breaker playing movies or music.

You have to remember that a 600W x 2 amp, especially on the front channels, typically won't be putting out 600W x 2 continuous power. The average continuous power will be much, much less and the breaker will easily handle the short peak demands.

EDIT: removed comments about replacing receptacles.
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post #7 of 166 Old 12-18-2012, 08:10 AM
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While it can be most likely done successfully, for safety's sake, I would never replace a 5-15 receptacle with a 5-20 unless the wiring and breaker are specifically rated for 20A. I've seen houses where the wiring can't even handle 15A as is let alone someone trying to pull 20A out of it. There are reasons why electrical codes exist.
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post #8 of 166 Old 12-18-2012, 09:38 AM
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Does Code precludes a 20A combo receptacle on a 15A circuit? The breaker protects the wiring from overload. I am not advocating to increase the breaker size.

EDIT: Yes, it does seem putting a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit is precluded by NEC in table 210.21(B)(3). Previous comment rescinded.
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post #9 of 166 Old 12-18-2012, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chazz1234 View Post

Hello everyone....my name is Charles
I have just recently re-done my MAN-CAVE...and Iv bought the Pioneer Elite SC-67 along with Polk Audio's RTiA9's for my mains...they sound pretty good...but these monsters suck up the power like crazy !!

With 90 dB/w sensitivity they must make a lot of sound doing it.
Quote:
Now ...I like to really crank it up at tymz....and my SC-67 at 130 watts per channel will clip when I turn it up.

Based on what objective information?
Quote:
...I was thinking of buying the Emotiva XPR-2 / 600x2 power amp....I want a lotta head room so that it is effortless to power these hungry speakers....What do uall think ???

Standard answer. If you want to make your system even just twice as loud before clipping with more power, you need a 1300 wpc amp.

BTW, the speakers are rated by the manufacturer at 500 wpc max so even the 600 wpc amp risks permanent damage to your speakers.

Following is an estimate of the max SPL and power your speaker could handle if its 3 each 7" bass drivers were utterly SOTA:

Freq,Hz Max SPL, DB Displacement Limited Max power, Watts

10 83 0.2
20 95 3.1
30 102 16
40 107 50
50 111 122
60 114 254
70 117 470
80 119 802*
90 121 1285*
100 123 1958*
130 127 5594*

* actually thermally limited to 500 watts

The bottom line is that your speakers can't handle even just 500 watts below about 72 Hz if their 7" drivers were SOTA which they probably aren't. Things are probably even worse than what my model predicts.

You need a good subwoofer to obtain true full range operation of your system. If you do that, you will dramatically increase the effectiveness of the power amps in your receiver because you won't be wasting their power trying make a subwoofer out of midrange speakers (AKA "Trying to teach a pig to fly").

So, save the money you want to spend for the power amp that won't really help you all that much and invest it in a subwoofer that will largely eliminate the need for said power amp and give you far deeper and cleaner bass.
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post #10 of 166 Old 12-18-2012, 01:59 PM
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^^
excellent post
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post #11 of 166 Old 12-18-2012, 02:05 PM
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^^^
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Yes, a most excellent post.
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post #12 of 166 Old 12-18-2012, 04:17 PM
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Yes, that is quite true in the context of an effort to play louder. However, if you're pushing the limit of what 130W can do cleanly, then going to 600W is not an insignificant change (near 7dB) with respect to available headroom.
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post #13 of 166 Old 12-18-2012, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

Yes, that is quite true in the context of an effort to play louder. However, if you're pushing the limit of what 130W can do cleanly, then going to 600W is not an insignificant change (near 7dB) with respect to available headroom.

Yea, but I'm fairly confident either his ears or his speakers will die long before that though. Is still stand by my opinion that the XPR-2 is WAY overkill for his speakers. He'll never realize the benefits of those over the XPA-2 or even the XPA-3 for that matter. $900 difference for no useful benefit is quite a bit unless he's got money to burn and wouldn't even think twice about the loss.

Charles, the decision is up to you. I didn't mean to rain on your parade. Just wanted to give you my opinion since you asked. If you can swing that much money, that's a great choice in amps for the money. Not sure if there are other areas in your system that could benefit more with upgrades, but I would make sure I addressed those issues before spending more than you need to on an amp.

Just as a reference, I myself am debating about getting this very amp versus the XPR-5. My speakers are much more inefficient than yours and I'm about to receive another pair that are even less efficient. My new pair will only be 82dB/W/M. I also have a 9 speaker setup (with two more in the near future) so an external amp is necessary in my case. So yes, I know what it's like to want more than you really need.
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post #14 of 166 Old 12-18-2012, 06:42 PM
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take care of those ears. the only ones you got
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post #15 of 166 Old 12-18-2012, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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U all are great !!! ok...let me fill uall in....I have the Pioneer Elite sc-67....Polk Audio RTiA9's/FXiA6's/CSiA6/ and a QSC K-SUB......now...Polk Audio recommends a 50 - 500 watt amp to push the RTiA9'z....I am very happy with the sound so far...but...I do want to get all I can outta the RTiA9'z....the adition of the sub is frikin awsum...i have it pretty well dialed in.....just wanna know if there is anything I can do to make it any better......O and by the way......Iv spent years as a singer in a heavy Metal Band....I know what good a great audio sound like.....as far as playing gigs...but Im brand new to audiophile equipment....I dont mind spending the $$$$ if it gets me what I want...I just dont want to do any trial and error with the cash....lol...done that before.......I want a freekin hot rod....I like to cruise...but when i step on the gas....I want the my passengers to piss on themselves hahahahhahaha......hehehe
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post #16 of 166 Old 12-18-2012, 08:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Im not a pro audio guy at all....so my thinking was....I can get a car with a 4 clndr engine to a 120 miles per hr.....but if I get a car with a blown hemi V8...it can do 120mph with ease and with quality....Am I way off base with sound????
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post #17 of 166 Old 12-18-2012, 09:00 PM
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Car analogy doesn't quite relate like that. The analogy implies that you would be able to use the full power of the amps when you need it. Think more like having that full blown Hemi that never leaves a busy mall parking lot. You've got all that power, but you can't use it because you're limited by the rest of the environment. The XPA-2 or possibly even the XPA-3 will be more than enough to get you what you want with all the headroom you need at ~$900 less. If you want to use a car analogy think of it as buying a bus to transport your family of four. Sure, there's a lot a room just in case, but the room for growth is just wasted when you even a minivan would be more than enough.

Then again, if it makes you feel better that you've got more than enough just in case and it increases your enjoyment of the system even though it may just be a placebo effect then it is worth it if you've got the cash. It's never a waste of disposable income (to you) if you perceive it to make a difference. How we may perceive it is another question altogether.
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post #18 of 166 Old 12-18-2012, 09:10 PM
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Why not get a pro audio amp to push those speakers? They have gobs of power and cost much less than that XPR-2. Behringer and Crown are two worth looking at. The new iNuke is supposed to be pretty good - and they are cheap.
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post #19 of 166 Old 12-18-2012, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

even though it may just be a placebo effect then it is worth it if you've got the cash. .

The "is it worth it" subjectivity aside, going from 130W to 600W does not fall into the may be a placebo effect category.
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post #20 of 166 Old 12-18-2012, 09:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Well...thats one of my ??? Iv had many pro audio amps....QSC/Crown/Carvin...etc...and I do know that they can get my loud enuff....But does the quality of an Audiophile amp make a difference???I just sold a Carvin 3800 watt amp...so I know loud.....but the Emotiva amps or even up to McIntosh amps that weigh 100+ pounds and are supposed to give you warmth clarity and plenty of headroom...etc Im looking for the best sound that I can get outta my system.....will adding a good quality power amp get me there????
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post #21 of 166 Old 12-18-2012, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

The "is it worth it" subjectivity aside, going from 130W to 600W does not fall into the may be a placebo effect category.

You're taking that out of context. I was comparing it the XPA-2. 300W to 600W will mean nothing to him when he won't even be using the full 300W to begin with. Since Charles likes car analogies. Does going 65mph in a Ferrari feel faster than going 65mph in a Yugo? I would think not. Just because he has all that power, doesn't mean he's going to use it all. Then again, he might hear a very noticeable difference if he runs the XPR-2 at full tilt on those speakers. As in he would hear major distortion possibly followed by silence as the speakers die a horrible death. That's if he hasn't gone deaf already.

The XPA-2 will push his speakers to 108dB a piece anechoic at ~10' distance. That doesn't include room gain or running a pair which should net him another 3dB from the second speaker alone. Room gain will most likely add a few more dB on top of that. Can anyone comfortably listen to sustained 111dB? That's not peak either. Most people find reference levels loud. That's just 85dB per speaker with 105dB peaks. I know he said he was a heavy metal musician, but that doesn't mean these levels are still not loud to him.
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post #22 of 166 Old 12-18-2012, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by chazz1234 View Post

Well...thats one of my ??? Iv had many pro audio amps....QSC/Crown/Carvin...etc...and I do know that they can get my loud enuff....But does the quality of an Audiophile amp make a difference???I just sold a Carvin 3800 watt amp...so I know loud.....but the Emotiva amps or even up to McIntosh amps that weigh 100+ pounds and are supposed to give you warmth clarity and plenty of headroom...etc Im looking for the best sound that I can get outta my system.....will adding a good quality power amp get me there????

Wow, what a can of worms you've opened with that line of questioning. You need to bust out the popcorn and watch out for the debate that is sure to come. All properly designed amps will sound the same if used within their rated specs. There is no such thing as "audiophile" amps. There is only consumer and pro amps. The difference lies in the design goals. Consumer amps are designed to run without a fan (usually), are subjectively pleasing to the eye and have remote turn on functionality. Pro amps are designed to be efficient, rugged and cost effective. An amplifiers job is to do just that, amplify the signal it receives. No more, no less. If it does anything to the sound it is now a sound processor.

That being said, some amplifiers can and do add a sound signature to them. For this exercise let's ignore those as that's not what an amplifier should be doing. Assuming we are comparing properly designed pro and consumer amps, they will sound the same within their rated specs. If you can live with the looks of pro amps I would highly recommend them for even more cost savings. Fan noise can be mitigated by simple replacements with quieter fans. I have a Behringer EPX4000 that is dead silent after my fan replacement. Don't judge an amp based solely on it's weight either. Heavy can mean that is a class A, B, A/B or H amp. Class D amps are very light and can put out enormous amount of power. My LG clone is ~28lbs IIRC and is rated to 14kW. My former Emotiva XPA-2 weighed in at 72lbs and is rated at 1kW.

So after much babbling on my part, the short answer to your question is no, an "audiophile" amp will not get you there. I don't have any experience with Carvin, but I can tell you the Crown and QCS amps are very good. If you get one with enough power that is all you need. Heck, you can even get a Behringer EP4000 for about three bills and be done with it. It has more power than the XPR-2. You just don't get the nifty remote power on via 12V triggers that the Emotiva will offer.

You have to ask yourself, what exactly are you looking for. Are you happy with the sound quality and just want it louder? If so, just get a decent amp that fits your requirement and don't get into paying gobs of money into power you won't use. Do you want better quality sound? If so, you would have to look at what you have or don't have and address that. A higher powered amp may help if you say your receiver is clipping, but it won't make a huge improvement. It will only allow you to play a little louder before it begins to distort. You have to know if the amp is you limiter or if it's you speaker though. If you speaker itself is at it's limit due to mechanical or thermal limits then no amount of additional power can fix that.

That Elite SC-67 is no slouch. Where is it in the sound that you want to improve? MCACC does not do any EQing of the sub channels. Are you crossing your mains over to the subs? That should take a huge load off the demands of the speakers and receiver amps. The QSC sub you have has a very narrow frequency band (48Hz - 134Hz -6dB/+6dB) that means the F3 is somewhere north of 50Hz. Is it possible you are turning up the volume to try to fill in the lower octaves that your sub can't reproduce? Ok, I'll stop babbling for now.
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post #23 of 166 Old 12-19-2012, 12:22 AM - Thread Starter
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WOW Guys...This is frikin great....I really like learning about all this.....and all of u are awsum !!!
My Sc-67 has 2 lines out for subs.....the QSC K-Sub has 2 inputs.....I plugged them both in.....I have the sub up almost half and it blends in very well.........since I do NOT listen to House/Rap/or HipHop the bass signal seems to be fine for listening to Judas Priest/Fight/Metalica/Queensryche....etc......altho sum of the new Ozzy is tuned down to low frikin B .....the only way to get that really clean wld be to go to an 18 inch sub.....I almost did it....but the K-Sub fit perfectly in the entertainment center........the signal for the sub is separate from the mains....and the AUTO room EQ did a pretty good job of tuning the rest of the system up....I tweeked it a little...but it sounds pretty good......but Im lookin for AWSUM........I just got off the phone with a musician friend of mine who works with a guy who installs home theater Equipment....he said hes gonna come over on Sunday and take look....but he seems to think that adding sound stuff to my walls will help out tremendously....he also said that if i get another Power Amp...to get a good EQ to go along with it....hahahhahaha.....the never ending search for the GOLDEN SOUND.....has now opened even more questions that need answering.......JUST GOTTA LOVE BIGBOY TOYZ !!!!!!
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post #24 of 166 Old 12-19-2012, 12:31 AM - Thread Starter
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OK...I have an idea???
If getting a larger power amp isnt my HOLY GRAIL......and a power amp is a power amp....and if a power amp doesnt influence the actual sound quality.....what id I got another pair of RTiA9'z ???? what it paralleled them...2 pair on each side...they are 8 ohm speakers....so If I did this that wld turn each side to 4 ohms...thus almost doubling my wattage.....and having twice the speakers...it should make it REALLY FULL with out having to get another amp ???? I do know that if I was running a Marshall Full stack.....if I added another Full stack (2 more cabinets )...the sound went from great....to OMG !!!!!
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post #25 of 166 Old 12-19-2012, 12:33 AM - Thread Starter
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*** Thats....what if I paralleled them......
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post #26 of 166 Old 12-19-2012, 12:54 AM - Thread Starter
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O....one more bit of info on my system....I have the RTiA9'z bi-amped....and my center ( CSiA6 ) is also bi-amped....
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post #27 of 166 Old 12-19-2012, 04:29 AM
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Biamping, in the presumed manner you're doing it, delivers zero additional power to the speakers from a practical standpoint, if that's where you're heading.
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post #28 of 166 Old 12-19-2012, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

You're taking that out of context. I was comparing it the XPA-2. 300W to 600W will mean nothing to him when he won't even be using the full 300W to begin with. Since Charles likes car analogies. Does going 65mph in a Ferrari feel faster than going 65mph in a Yugo? I would think not. Just because he has all that power, doesn't mean he's going to use it all. Then again, he might hear a very noticeable difference if he runs the XPR-2 at full tilt on those speakers. As in he would hear major distortion possibly followed by silence as the speakers die a horrible death. That's if he hasn't gone deaf already.
The XPA-2 will push his speakers to 108dB a piece anechoic at ~10' distance. That doesn't include room gain or running a pair which should net him another 3dB from the second speaker alone. Room gain will most likely add a few more dB on top of that. Can anyone comfortably listen to sustained 111dB? That's not peak either. Most people find reference levels loud. That's just 85dB per speaker with 105dB peaks. I know he said he was a heavy metal musician, but that doesn't mean these levels are still not loud to him.

Those numbers would be peak. From the Peak SPL calculator ( which matches fairly well with my own observations from my system) says peak levels @ 10 ft will be ~108dB @ 130W, ~111dB @ 300W, and ~114dB @ 600W (not counting the perhaps 1-2dB dynamic headroom of the amps). So, subtract 10dB from that for an easy number to work with for continuous levels and your at 98, 101, and 104 respectively.

Don't want to see anyone blow up their speakers or go deaf, but that's their prerogative.

So, to sum up....

1. Is this the best use of the money? Probably not, but I like big amps too even if don't run the system WFO all the time. It's there for when when I do.
2. Will going from 130W to 600W make a huge difference? Well, "huge" is subjective. Regardless of that can of worms, it will be a noticeable difference when pushing the system.
3. With great power comes great responsibility, so...
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Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #29 of 166 Old 12-19-2012, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by chazz1234 View Post

OK...I have an idea???
If getting a larger power amp isnt my HOLY GRAIL......and a power amp is a power amp....and if a power amp doesnt influence the actual sound quality.....what id I got another pair of RTiA9'z ???? what it paralleled them...2 pair on each side...they are 8 ohm speakers....so If I did this that wld turn each side to 4 ohms...thus almost doubling my wattage.....and having twice the speakers...it should make it REALLY FULL with out having to get another amp ???? I do know that if I was running a Marshall Full stack.....if I added another Full stack (2 more cabinets )...the sound went from great....to OMG !!!!!

it would be "louder"... it would not be "better"... it would be a sonic disaster...

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post #30 of 166 Old 12-19-2012, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by chazz1234 View Post

Well...thats one of my ??? Iv had many pro audio amps....QSC/Crown/Carvin...etc...and I do know that they can get my loud enuff....But does the quality of an Audiophile amp make a difference???

With good pro amps there is no relevant quality difference to make a difference.
Quote:
I just sold a Carvin 3800 watt amp...so I know loud...

I've never really looked close at Carvin amps and I haven't seen any formal independent tests of them so I don't know what they are all about.

I do have a fair amount of experience with Behringer, Crown and QSC. I know of quite a few great-sounding home systems that are based on them.
Quote:
..but the Emotiva amps or even up to McIntosh amps that weigh 100+ pounds and are supposed to give you warmth clarity and plenty of headroom...etc I'm looking for the best sound that I can get outta my system.....will adding a good quality power amp get me there????

The size and weight of some audiophile amps makes me laugh - they are based on the very crude and naive idea that you can buy sound quality by the pound.

Simply not so, and its going to be even less so once the switchmode revolution picks up some steam.
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