Denon 2313ci -- crossover function not working? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 8 Old 01-02-2013, 05:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

I recently took delivery of my new Klipsch RW-12d subwoofer for my home theater buildout. Next on the list are a projector screen and a set of good surround speakers from Ascend Acoustics, but for now I'm projecting on a wall and using a cheap pair of RCA 2-way stereo speakers with 5.25" main drivers. I have no center or surround. Everything is connected through my Denon AVR-2313ci.

Anyway, I wanted to run Audyssey with the subwoofer connected, run some tests, and watch a few bassy movie scenes to see how it all works together. Audyssey ran fine, setting my front speakers to "small" and the front crossover to 60hz; basically what I expected. The "ring drop" scene at the beginning of Lord of the Rings was a good initial test. Then, just to see what it could really do, I downloaded this MP3:

http://www.pyon.fr/hcfr/Bass%20Test%20Tones/Bass%20Test%20Tones%20-%20Linear%20Sweep%2060hz%20-%205hz.mp3

As the title indicates, it's a linear sweep from 60hz down to 5hz, and it really shows off what the Klipsch can do. It's fun to listen to the air rushing in and out of the port at the bottom of the range. biggrin.gif However, I noticed that the main drivers on my front speakers are also getting signal all the way down to 5hz as well, and it's going to tear the surrounds to shreds if that keeps up (and I keep playing super-deep bass on constant repeat with the volume cranked up, which I won't). Given the crossover setting, I expected activity from the fronts only at the very top of the sweep and tapering off sharply.

Why isn't my receiver honoring the crossover setting? Suggestions? Thoughts?

Thanks. smile.gif

Living Room: Denon 2113ci + BIC V1020 + Panasonic BDT220 + AppleTV + uVerse DVR + Panasonic P42S2 plasma
Theater: Denon 2313ci + Klipsch RW12d + Panasonic BDT220 + Mac mini + uVerse wired receiver + Epson 8350 PJ + 100" screen
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post #2 of 8 Old 01-06-2013, 05:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Nobody has any ideas?

Living Room: Denon 2113ci + BIC V1020 + Panasonic BDT220 + AppleTV + uVerse DVR + Panasonic P42S2 plasma
Theater: Denon 2313ci + Klipsch RW12d + Panasonic BDT220 + Mac mini + uVerse wired receiver + Epson 8350 PJ + 100" screen
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post #3 of 8 Old 01-06-2013, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeRobb View Post

Hi,

I recently took delivery of my new Klipsch RW-12d subwoofer for my home theater buildout. Next on the list are a projector screen and a set of good surround speakers from Ascend Acoustics, but for now I'm projecting on a wall and using a cheap pair of RCA 2-way stereo speakers with 5.25" main drivers. I have no center or surround. Everything is connected through my Denon AVR-2313ci.

Anyway, I wanted to run Audyssey with the subwoofer connected, run some tests, and watch a few bassy movie scenes to see how it all works together. Audyssey ran fine, setting my front speakers to "small" and the front crossover to 60hz; basically what I expected. The "ring drop" scene at the beginning of Lord of the Rings was a good initial test. Then, just to see what it could really do, I downloaded this MP3:

http://www.pyon.fr/hcfr/Bass%20Test%20Tones/Bass%20Test%20Tones%20-%20Linear%20Sweep%2060hz%20-%205hz.mp3

As the title indicates, it's a linear sweep from 60hz down to 5hz, and it really shows off what the Klipsch can do. It's fun to listen to the air rushing in and out of the port at the bottom of the range. biggrin.gif

That's called chuffing or port noise and it is generally considered to be a serious flaw. FAIL!!! Somebody apparently tried to make the box too small by putting in too skinny of a piece of pipe. :-( Sometimes this noise can be reduced by rounding the corner on the hole on the front of the box. If you think about the relatively small volume that a properly enlarged pipe would add to the size of the box, you might understand my irritation at such a rookie mistake.
Quote:
However, I noticed that the main drivers on my front speakers are also getting signal all the way down to 5hz as well, and it's going to tear the surrounds to shreds if that keeps up (and I keep playing super-deep bass on constant repeat with the volume cranked up, which I won't). Given the crossover setting, I expected activity from the fronts only at the very top of the sweep and tapering off sharply.

Why isn't my receiver honoring the crossover setting? Suggestions? Thoughts?

Don't know what your crossover settings are. Believe it or not, it matters. Seem to have a spate of posters who believe that other people are telekinetic. :-(

Perhcance the those speakers are set to large?

If these speakers are set to small and a crossover in the usual 80 Hz range then response should be about 20 dB down at 20 Hz which should be enough to keep the woofer cones from flailing themselves to death. The real acid test is whether or not there is actually any audible sound coming out of those speakers. There might be some visible cone motion but if there isn't any groaning that you can hear over the chuffing that you say is coming from the Little subwoofer that can't, then you are OK.
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post #4 of 8 Old 01-06-2013, 09:14 AM
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Re low range signal from the main speakers: Make sure all speakers are small. If Audyssey set 60 Hz, you can leave it there, or even bump it up to 80 Hz. Make sure the bass setting is LFE, not LFE + Main (although setting speakers to small should make this irrelevant). Make sure that you are not testing using PURE or DIRECT, but rather something like STEREO.

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post #5 of 8 Old 01-08-2013, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

That's called chuffing or port noise and it is generally considered to be a serious flaw. FAIL!!! Somebody apparently tried to make the box too small by putting in too skinny of a piece of pipe. :-( Sometimes this noise can be reduced by rounding the corner on the hole on the front of the box. If you think about the relatively small volume that a properly enlarged pipe would add to the size of the box, you might understand my irritation at such a rookie mistake.
There does seem to be some significant port noise from the Klipsch at very low frequencies. The sub came very highly recommended from people on this site, so I doubt it's normal for this unit. I'll do a bit more research, but I've been wondering if I need to send it in for warranty repair/replacement. Good thing I still have the box. biggrin.gif
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Don't know what your crossover settings are. Believe it or not, it matters. Seem to have a spate of posters who believe that other people are telekinetic. :-(
Perhcance the those speakers are set to large?
Quoting my first post: "Audyssey ran fine, setting my front speakers to "small" and the front crossover to 60hz"
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

If these speakers are set to small and a crossover in the usual 80 Hz range then response should be about 20 dB down at 20 Hz which should be enough to keep the woofer cones from flailing themselves to death. The real acid test is whether or not there is actually any audible sound coming out of those speakers. There might be some visible cone motion but if there isn't any groaning that you can hear over the chuffing that you say is coming from the Little subwoofer that can't, then you are OK.

I'll unplug the sub and see what's audible in isolation, but I'm fairly sure they're running at full power all the way to 5Hz.

I'll try 80Hz (and higher) for the crossover setting and see if it makes a difference, but judging by the actual movement of the speaker cones, I don't think ANY attenuation is happening. I'll also try the LFE vs LFE+Main setting and the sound modes that highmr mentioned.

Thanks guys. Any more input would be helpful. smile.gif

Living Room: Denon 2113ci + BIC V1020 + Panasonic BDT220 + AppleTV + uVerse DVR + Panasonic P42S2 plasma
Theater: Denon 2313ci + Klipsch RW12d + Panasonic BDT220 + Mac mini + uVerse wired receiver + Epson 8350 PJ + 100" screen
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post #6 of 8 Old 01-08-2013, 07:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, so it turned out to be the sound modes. When streaming the aforementioned MP3 via Airplay, the MOVIE, MUSIC, and GAME modes all result in the AVR display saying STEREO and the crossover settings working as configured. But if I press PURE, the display says DIRECT and the mains receive full strength signal with no attenuation all the way down to 5hz. This is the case regardless of the crossover setting, speaker size setting, or Subwoofer Mode setting (LFE / LFE + Main).

This seems wrong to me, like maybe a firmware issue. Can anyone explain to my why it should work this way?

Living Room: Denon 2113ci + BIC V1020 + Panasonic BDT220 + AppleTV + uVerse DVR + Panasonic P42S2 plasma
Theater: Denon 2313ci + Klipsch RW12d + Panasonic BDT220 + Mac mini + uVerse wired receiver + Epson 8350 PJ + 100" screen
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post #7 of 8 Old 01-08-2013, 07:31 PM
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Pure/Direct mode probably ignores all bass management as it does no processing. Just don't use that mode if it doesn't do what you want. Stick with stereo.

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post #8 of 8 Old 01-09-2013, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeRobb View Post

Okay, so it turned out to be the sound modes. When streaming the aforementioned MP3 via Airplay, the MOVIE, MUSIC, and GAME modes all result in the AVR display saying STEREO and the crossover settings working as configured. But if I press PURE, the display says DIRECT and the mains receive full strength signal with no attenuation all the way down to 5hz. This is the case regardless of the crossover setting, speaker size setting, or Subwoofer Mode setting (LFE / LFE + Main).
This seems wrong to me, like maybe a firmware issue. Can anyone explain to my why it should work this way?

Not a firmware issue at all, rather acting as designed. The point of either DIRECT or PURE DIRECT (same as DIRECT but removes the video processing as well) modes is to minimize the digital signal processing which then also disables bass management (ie. speakers are treated as LARGE) and Audyssey.

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