Anyone here using an Emotiva UMC-200? What are your thoughts? - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 530 Old 12-11-2013, 11:35 PM
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EmoQ equalization is based on a single point measurement. That's generally a bad idea because the frequency response within the listening area can vary quite a lot.

Markus

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post #452 of 530 Old 12-12-2013, 04:48 AM
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Audyssey sets my fronts as large and my center was small with 40hz, has done that with both Denon and Onkyo. I just get used to changing it afterwards, because I run all 3 as small and crossed at 80. smile.gif

With audyssey distance and level has been pretty good, though I do boost the LFE 4db or so.

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post #453 of 530 Old 12-12-2013, 05:10 AM
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^
Yes, Audyssey is pretty useless when a monophonic bass optimization strategy is desired.

Markus

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post #454 of 530 Old 12-12-2013, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

I'm enjoying my 200 but its not set it and forget it.

The first week takes many fine tuning . I previously had a mid level denon avr and like the emo much better.


I agree, ran emoq multiple times, it sucked the life out of my midrange and lower frequencies, but at the same time my high end is crystal clear. Using the setting Flat brings back the mids and bass, but the high end is a bit muddy (when compared to the emoq settings).

I had a Yamaha reciever before my UMC-200, and was always satisfied with YPAO settings, but then again, I've never had a full on pre/pro before, so I didn't know any better. All I can go off of is my impressions so far.

Looks like I'll have to go the manual EQ route, which I've never had to do before. Totally clueless about REW and how it all works, but with more time and reading I'm sure I'll get the hang of it. It's a bit overwhelming at first but I like the challenge.

AVR - Emotiva UMC-200 + UPA-700 / Sources - PS3/Xbox360
Fronts - Klipsch KF-28 / Center - Klipsch RC-62
Sides - Klipsch VS-14 / Rears - Klipsch VS-14
Sub1 - SVS PB12-NSD / Sub2 - SVS PB12-NSD
PRJ - Mitsubishi HC5 / SCN - 120" ES cinewhite
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post #455 of 530 Old 12-12-2013, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freespace303 View Post

I agree, ran emoq multiple times, it sucked the life out of my midrange and lower frequencies, but at the same time my high end is crystal clear. Using the setting Flat brings back the mids and bass, but the high end is a bit muddy (when compared to the emoq settings).

I had a Yamaha reciever before my UMC-200, and was always satisfied with YPAO settings, but then again, I've never had a full on pre/pro before, so I didn't know any better. All I can go off of is my impressions so far.

Looks like I'll have to go the manual EQ route, which I've never had to do before. Totally clueless about REW and how it all works, but with more time and reading I'm sure I'll get the hang of it. It's a bit overwhelming at first but I like the challenge.

If EMOQ is increasing the upper range and decreasing mid and low it is no woinder that flat is as you describe.
Flat disengages EMOQ. It does not set a FR to achieve a flat setting.
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post #456 of 530 Old 12-12-2013, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

If EMOQ is increasing the upper range and decreasing mid and low it is no woinder that flat is as you describe.
Flat disengages EMOQ. It does not set a FR to achieve a flat setting.

Seems like manual EQ using REW is pretty much the only solution considering what I want to achieve. I just ordered the UMIK-1. Now to learn all about manual EQing. Wish me luck!

AVR - Emotiva UMC-200 + UPA-700 / Sources - PS3/Xbox360
Fronts - Klipsch KF-28 / Center - Klipsch RC-62
Sides - Klipsch VS-14 / Rears - Klipsch VS-14
Sub1 - SVS PB12-NSD / Sub2 - SVS PB12-NSD
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post #457 of 530 Old 12-12-2013, 12:13 PM
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Im thinking about just getting an XPA-3 now and using my Oppo 103D as the pre pro. I can set level and measurements in the Oppo, and I have the nice CM140 spl meter. Next time chadb is in for my display, I can get the UMC200 in and let him calibrate it with all his gear.

Im betting I may enjoy the XPA3 on my speakers even without "room correction"

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post #458 of 530 Old 12-12-2013, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freespace303 View Post

Seems like manual EQ using REW is pretty much the only solution considering what I want to achieve. I just ordered the UMIK-1. Now to learn all about manual EQing. Wish me luck!

LUCK!!smile.gif
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post #459 of 530 Old 12-12-2013, 12:51 PM
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What a lot of people don't seem understand is there a lot of factors that apply to room correction apps.Most people have never heard a truly flat output from their system and probably never will. What you need is a signal generator, a microphone of high quality, an equalizer and the biggest one, a room that has no acoustics of it's own. Carpet, tile, wood or laminate floors, furniture, drapes, etc. effect how your system sounds, every brand of speaker sounds different too, every room layout is different and where the speakers are placed makes a huge difference. I always start with the 2 foot rule for speaker placement 2' from back wall 2' from side walls and adjust from there. You have 1 of the 4 things needed to achieve FLAT sound, the EQ, but now you have another variable, in the fact no 2 people hear the same. My suggestion is to get a test CD (XLO, AYRE) to achieve the best speaker placement first b/4 preforming ANY room correction app. What's nice about the 200 is you can still adjust the EQ and Q settings with Emo-Q engaged ( "Q" is the degree of slope of the frequency being used) and adjust it to what sounds good to you and your room. Plus you have 3 more to play with! Have fun!


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post #460 of 530 Old 12-12-2013, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freespace303 View Post

Seems like manual EQ using REW is pretty much the only solution considering what I want to achieve. I just ordered the UMIK-1. Now to learn all about manual EQing. Wish me luck!

Just in case you haven't seen this thread already: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs

Markus

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post #461 of 530 Old 12-12-2013, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huber13 View Post

What a lot of people don't seem understand is there a lot of factors that apply to room correction apps.Most people have never heard a truly flat output from their system and probably never will. What you need is a signal generator, a microphone of high quality, an equalizer and the biggest one, a room that has no acoustics of it's own. Carpet, tile, wood or laminate floors, furniture, drapes, etc. effect how your system sounds, every brand of speaker sounds different too, every room layout is different and where the speakers are placed makes a huge difference. I always start with the 2 foot rule for speaker placement 2' from back wall 2' from side walls and adjust from there. You have 1 of the 4 things needed to achieve FLAT sound, the EQ, but now you have another variable, in the fact no 2 people hear the same. My suggestion is to get a test CD (XLO, AYRE) to achieve the best speaker placement first b/4 preforming ANY room correction app. What's nice about the 200 is you can still adjust the EQ and Q settings with Emo-Q engaged ( "Q" is the degree of slope of the frequency being used) and adjust it to what sounds good to you and your room. Plus you have 3 more to play with! Have fun!

Flat in-room is not what people prefer. I'm sure you're aware of the Harman studies.
By the way, if there's anything psychoacoustic studies have shown, then it's the fact that people do hear the same.
Here's some good info: http://seanolive.blogspot.com/

Markus

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post #462 of 530 Old 12-12-2013, 03:48 PM
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Yeah I know I won't get a flat response, but emoq has left me with a sound I like less than flat, which confirms what other people have said on the forums. Emoq isn't great, and its only a baseline anyway. Besides, I've been wanting to learn about this REW stuff for a while. I'm sure with some time and learning, I'll find a sound thats in between flat and emoq, and something I'll finally be happy with I hope.

Thanks for that link!

AVR - Emotiva UMC-200 + UPA-700 / Sources - PS3/Xbox360
Fronts - Klipsch KF-28 / Center - Klipsch RC-62
Sides - Klipsch VS-14 / Rears - Klipsch VS-14
Sub1 - SVS PB12-NSD / Sub2 - SVS PB12-NSD
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post #463 of 530 Old 12-12-2013, 04:57 PM
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At the end of the day, your ear and what you like should be the final judge. My experience thus far has been that I really like emo-q, and leave it as is regarding eq and x-over points. I do however use a Radio Shack db meter to set the levels of each speaker manually. I also tend to boost the center channel a bit on the remote in most flicks, for dialog enhancement.
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post #464 of 530 Old 12-13-2013, 02:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oatmeal769 View Post

At the end of the day, your ear and what you like should be the final judge.

Regarding recordings yes, the ear should be the final judge. Regarding quality of reproduction I don't agree. Reproduction is a technical process not a creative one. Ears can't replace measuring equipment.

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post #465 of 530 Old 12-13-2013, 05:38 AM
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Im leaning towards ordering an outlaw 7125 in a couple of weeks and using my Oppo as a pre pro. Sure it doesnt have room eq, but I can see how big of a difference I notice as someone who has had Audyssey forever. Next time Chad is in town I can hire him for an audio cal, and buy the UMC200 for that.

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post #466 of 530 Old 12-13-2013, 05:45 AM
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^
Smart idea to use the Oppo 103/105 as a pre/pro. If you need EQ then a miniDSP is probably the better choice than a UMC-200. The UMC-200 has only 3 bands of PEQ where it's needed most (the subs) wheras the miniDSP can do a lot more, e.g. subsonic filter to protect bass reflex subs, fully variable crossover slopes, Linkwitz transform, etc.

Markus

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post #467 of 530 Old 12-13-2013, 08:15 AM
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I have an SR6007 Marantz with Audyssey XT. After thinking about it, Im just going to keep it and use as the pre pro. I was trying to save space and amps are easy, but when you start trying to get into pre/pro options not many of them are small, many are expensive, and some have issues. Its a mixed bag. I can see why all these people just buy an AVR with Audyssey and use it as a pre pro.

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post #468 of 530 Old 12-13-2013, 08:24 AM
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Personally I think pre/pros are nonsense. You get the chance to swamp amps in case speakers don't match but that's it. In my opinion, more important would be a EQ stage that doesn't require DA/AD/DA conversion.
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post #469 of 530 Old 12-13-2013, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

^
Personally I think pre/pros are nonsense. You get the chance to swamp amps in case speakers don't match but that's it. In my opinion, more important would be a EQ stage that doesn't require DA/AD/DA conversion.

I love my pre/pro and will never go back to an avr. I am not a set it and forget type with settings . Its great to have the choice of both
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post #470 of 530 Old 12-13-2013, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

I love my pre/pro and will never go back to an avr. I am not a set it and forget type with settings . Its great to have the choice of both

At least you are not too OC to enjoy it!! Like some who nit pick the **** out of every thing.
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post #471 of 530 Old 12-13-2013, 12:18 PM
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What i don't understand is when people post daily in a thread to not buy the product . Do they really have that much time on their hands to do it. THeir are many threads on avs where the doomsayer nitpicks the cra*(#$# out of something. In the end its just stuff. Return it if you don't like it.
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post #472 of 530 Old 12-13-2013, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Flat in-room is not what people prefer. I'm sure you're aware of the Harman studies.
By the way, if there's anything psychoacoustic studies have shown, then it's the fact that people do hear the same.
Here's some good info: http://seanolive.blogspot.com/

"then it's the fact that people do hear the same."

Don't ever tell an audiologist that. smile.gif (No, I am not an audiologist)

They may share the same preferences but people do not hear the same.

Measured listening tests say differently.

The listeners in the Harman studies were "trained" listeners, not average listeners.

Trained listeners over time can learn to hear around their perceptual listening deficiencies.

Wonderful thing this human brain we have, it actually has the ability to create what is missing from our sensory input.

That being said, I appreciate Harman's studies, I think Harman has done amazing research to improve the sound of reproduced music.

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post #473 of 530 Old 12-13-2013, 02:35 PM
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Hooked up the new UMC 200 to my system and Im having issues frown.gif

Called Emotiva to speak with tech support, and had to leave a VM.

UMC 200- connected to a new Crown XLS 1500 stereo mode pro gear amp. PS3, Cinematube media player connected to 200 via HDMI monoprice cables.


1) PS3 and Cinematube media player WILL give picture only, but NO sound whatsoever. It gets weirder though, because while I cant get any sound from any source unit, I CAN get white noise test tones from the built in tone generator in the menu system.

2) Is the onscreen menu supposed to look a bit on the spartan side? Was hoping for an improvement from my Denon GUI from 5 yrs ago, but this seems like similiar in appearance. Sort of Atari-like.

3) Lastly I need to test but is anyone noticing any degradation of PQ using the HDMI out. Streamed MKVs from the Cinematube (HDD) thru the 200 look more pixelated than I remember. Need to test that more.


One would think it could be the connections, but then were it the HDMI cables, why would I get a picture? The HDMI out from the pro to my Pioneer 5070 plasma is the same cable I used yesterday direct to the tv and it worked fine. Made sure processor volume was up 30-50%, and Crown amp was turned to about 40%. Were it the RCAs patch cables between the pro and the amp, I shouldnt have gotten white noise tones I would think. I double-checked my connections too.

Is there a certain mode I need to activate or turn off here ?

Really stumped. Ive set up home theater systems for decades since my teens and never had problems like this. Dont want to have to return this but may have to.. Any ideas?

Thanks all

Kevin
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post #474 of 530 Old 12-13-2013, 02:42 PM
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Go on emotiva lounge and you will get much more help. Have you tried toslink cable for audio ?
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post #475 of 530 Old 12-13-2013, 02:50 PM
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Not yet but will give it a go later tonight
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post #476 of 530 Old 12-13-2013, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Regarding recordings yes, the ear should be the final judge. Regarding quality of reproduction I don't agree. Reproduction is a technical process not a creative one. Ears can't replace measuring equipment.
Anything one listens to that is not live is a recording.
If one is most interested in reproducing a recording as closely as the engineers and producer/director intended for it to be heard, then yes, your statement is true. This is best done using measuring equipment. If one is interested in simple enjoyment of their toy, then their ear should be the judge, measurements be damned. If someone likes more sub than THX calls for, more power to them. It doesn't make it wrong.
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post #477 of 530 Old 12-13-2013, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

What i don't understand is when people post daily in a thread to not buy the product . Do they really have that much time on their hands to do it. THeir are many threads on avs where the doomsayer nitpicks the cra*(#$# out of something. In the end its just stuff. Return it if you don't like it.

Well you had the time to post the above wink.gif. If a specific component has issues then I'll post about it. If I'm looking at a specific component and I'm not familiar with it I appreciate feedback on it positive or negative. Then I can decide to buy it knowing as much as possible.

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post #478 of 530 Old 12-14-2013, 02:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Repdetect View Post

"then it's the fact that people do hear the same."

Don't ever tell an audiologist that. smile.gif (No, I am not an audiologist)

They may share the same preferences but people do not hear the same.

Measured listening tests say differently.

The listeners in the Harman studies were "trained" listeners, not average listeners.

Trained listeners over time can learn to hear around their perceptual listening deficiencies.

Wonderful thing this human brain we have, it actually has the ability to create what is missing from our sensory input.

That being said, I appreciate Harman's studies, I think Harman has done amazing research to improve the sound of reproduced music.

Hearing is not just processing that happens in the outer and inner ear. It also involves higher level processes in the brain.
Of course there are interindividual differences but this doesn't warrant the conclusion that "we all hear different". We all know what the word "green" represents. If this wouldn't be true then humans never would have developed language. Some people need hearing aids others need glasses. These are cases to the left and the right of an Gaussian distribution. Most people hear the same.

Markus

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post #479 of 530 Old 12-14-2013, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freespace303 View Post

I agree, ran emoq multiple times, it sucked the life out of my midrange and lower frequencies, but at the same time my high end is crystal clear. Using the setting Flat brings back the mids and bass, but the high end is a bit muddy (when compared to the emoq settings).

I had a Yamaha reciever before my UMC-200, and was always satisfied with YPAO settings, but then again, I've never had a full on pre/pro before, so I didn't know any better. All I can go off of is my impressions so far.

Looks like I'll have to go the manual EQ route, which I've never had to do before. Totally clueless about REW and how it all works, but with more time and reading I'm sure I'll get the hang of it. It's a bit overwhelming at first but I like the challenge.

This was exactly my experience as well.

Spending many hours trying to use the PEQ by ear proved to be fruitless. Even though using REW looks intriguing and might fix the sound issue, I decided that I didn't want to go through that hassle for a simple bedroom set up. I boxed the UMC-200/UPA-700 combo and shipped it back for a refund. Next time I'll make sure that if special tools or software id needed in order to set up my equipment, I'll be fully aware. smile.gif

The manual that came with this unit was void of any information on how to set the PEQ. It might be a good idea for Emotiva to offer additional hardware or literature to better assist their customers for equipment such as the UMC-200. Or at least make the customer more aware that 3rd party tools may be required in order to properly set up the PEQ.
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post #480 of 530 Old 12-14-2013, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Zzyzx242 View Post

This was exactly my experience as well.

Spending many hours trying to use the PEQ by ear proved to be fruitless. Even though using REW looks intriguing and might fix the sound issue, I decided that I didn't want to go through that hassle for a simple bedroom set up. I boxed the UMC-200/UPA-700 combo and shipped it back for a refund. Next time I'll make sure that if special tools or software id needed in order to set up my equipment, I'll be fully aware. smile.gif

The manual that came with this unit was void of any information on how to set the PEQ
. It might be a good idea for Emotiva to offer additional hardware or literature to better assist their customers for equipment such as the UMC-200. Or at least make the customer more aware that 3rd party tools may be required in order to properly set up the PEQ.

OH SHEET!!! You just opened the door to let Bill in. biggrin.gif
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