Anyone here using an Emotiva UMC-200? What are your thoughts? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 530 Old 05-20-2013, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by videoaddikt View Post

Wow, Bill, I am surprised. I enjoyed your posts and easily relataed to most of them. Maybe if I did not already own a UMC-200 I would have been banned also as I have been critical about the way the updates were handled. I don't feel knowledgeable enough to attack them on a technical basis at this point. (I am avaddikt on emo) but I certainly never found anything inflammatory in your posts...never personal attacks, only balanced criticism IMO.

videoaddikt,

Thanks for your thoughts smile.gif. I appreciated your posts over at the Lounge as well.
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Originally Posted by cwt View Post

Bill you should have taken up Keiths offer of an upgraded firmware umc200 after your posts methinks . Must say your posts don't sail as close to the wind as some do ; shocked too ..

cwt,

The offer by KeithL (Emotiva staff) was appreciated but that is something I would have requested anyhow. My issue is what happens in the future when further FW updates are offered? I'm not willing to send the UMC-200 back to Emotiva and have my system down for a week. I just do not have the patience or computer skills to deal with the hit or miss FW update process with the UMC-200. Did Emotiva beta test the UMC-200's FW update process? To me it looks like they did not leaving it up to UMC-200 owners to work it out. To have a UMC-200 owner well versed in computers offer a better FW update process than the one given by Emotiva is kind of embarrassing IMO.

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post #182 of 530 Old 05-20-2013, 06:57 AM
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In all fairness, some did have success with the written emo pdf. In fact, it is possible most did, since not everyone responds on forums with the voracity of some of us. We may never know.

No emails were sent out. If you did not check the site you would not be aware of the 'fix'. Maybe emails to the masses are still pending. Then again, maybe I am giving them too much credit.

Keith also inferred that this is not a software company in response to concerns about how the update was presented. Kind of lame, with all deference to Keith who typically is helpful with assorted issues.

My first emo purchase was a used Emotive XPA-5 amp on Audiogon last year, that I am very happy with. For that matter I am pleased with the UMC-200. The fact is they have been around a while now, and have developed some fine products. But it appears they take customer feedback even on their own forum with a grain of salt, or not at all.
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post #183 of 530 Old 05-20-2013, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by videoaddikt View Post

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In all fairness, some did have success with the written emo pdf. In fact, it is possible most did, since not everyone responds on forums with the voracity of some of us. We may never know.

I agree that some did report the FW update went fine per Emotiva's instructions. But one has to admit that the whole multi step process even when going without any issues is far more complicated than it should be. By that I mean many A/V components offer simple FW updates with the push of one button and the update runs without further steps. I have done FW updates for my Oppo 103 and Denon 4311 this way without any issues at all.

Quote:
No emails were sent out. If you did not check the site you would not be aware of the 'fix'. Maybe emails to the masses are still pending. Then again, maybe I am giving them too much credit.

With my 103 and 4311 connected to the net I get messages that FW updates are available when powered up. I'm not sure if the UMC-200 is capable of being connected to the net though.

Quote:
Keith also inferred that this is not a software company in response to concerns about how the update was presented. Kind of lame, with all deference to Keith who typically is helpful with assorted issues.

That response was just totally unprofessional and wrong IMO.

Quote:
My first emo purchase was a used Emotive XPA-5 amp on Audiogon last year, that I am very happy with. For that matter I am pleased with the UMC-200. The fact is they have been around a while now, and have developed some fine products. But it appears they take customer feedback even on their own forum with a grain of salt, or not at all.

I agree that Emotiva makes fine audio products at very affordable prices. But as you mentioned they do not seem to take criticism very well even when presented in a respectful way.

Bill


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post #184 of 530 Old 05-20-2013, 09:30 AM
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I completed the update process, using the 'denist' method outlined in the Emo forum thread. It was not successful the first time.
For some strange reason it loaded files 1 thru 4 consecutively. It should have started with #4 first according to the originator. And I had a mismatch DSP message on conclusion.
I ran it again and everything loaded as expected (file 4 loads first, and 1,2 & 3 consecutively.) No errors!

So far I've seen an improvement in EMQ performance, Including the center channel level is now optimized as it should be.
Also, Dolby Stereo is now selected automatically based on programming input.
These were two obvious issues that have been fixed. Hopefully others will be there when I need them.
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post #185 of 530 Old 05-20-2013, 10:27 AM
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In reference to those UMC-200 owners that requested an update log that indicates what issues the new FW addresses this is a response by an Emotiva employee on the Lounge.

Third, several people have asked for an update log, but as far as I know nobody here has promised to provide one. The reason is that some "fixes" or changes affect multiple issues, and some issues may be affected by multiple firmware changes. We MAY provide a partial list of items addressed - but that is NOT a promise.

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post #186 of 530 Old 05-20-2013, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

In reference to those UMC-200 owners that requested an update log that indicates what issues the new FW addresses this is a response by an Emotiva employee on the Lounge.

Third, several people have asked for an update log, but as far as I know nobody here has promised to provide one. The reason is that some "fixes" or changes affect multiple issues, and some issues may be affected by multiple firmware changes. We MAY provide a partial list of items addressed - but that is NOT a promise.

Bill

Not a very good answer, is it? Especially when you consider we the consumers provided info about the issues since we were basically beta testing the initial release. So that's the answer we get.
They should provide a basic list of changes. It is always possible there were some in-production hardware changes which may have had some bearing on whether ALL units experienced the exact same issues. And actually there is some evidence reading through the posts that may well be the case.
But there were issues noted by most if not all users, including reviewers that SHOULD be documented. No excuse, at a minimum!
If they came right out and said they will not provide a change-log, it's their policy, blah blah blah.. I could accept that easier (although it would still stink) than to say MAY and NOT a promise. I don't know going on there, but seems some serioius attitude adjustments are needed.
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post #187 of 530 Old 05-20-2013, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by videoaddikt View Post

Not a very good answer, is it? Especially when you consider we the consumers provided info about the issues since we were basically beta testing the initial release. So that's the answer we get.
They should provide a basic list of changes. It is always possible there were some in-production hardware changes which may have had some bearing on whether ALL units experienced the exact same issues. And actually there is some evidence reading through the posts that may well be the case.
But there were issues noted by most if not all users, including reviewers that SHOULD be documented. No excuse, at a minimum!
If they came right out and said they will not provide a change-log, it's their policy, blah blah blah.. I could accept that easier (although it would still stink) than to say MAY and NOT a promise. I don't know going on there, but seems some serioius attitude adjustments are needed.

I agree with your thoughts 100%. The attitude of this specific employee seems to be that Emotiva is doing everyone a favor by providing the FW update. Very poor communication skills as far as I'm concerned.

Bill


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, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

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post #188 of 530 Old 05-20-2013, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

cwt,

The offer by KeithL (Emotiva staff) was appreciated but that is something I would have requested anyhow. My issue is what happens in the future when further FW updates are offered? I'm not willing to send the UMC-200 back to Emotiva and have my system down for a week. I just do not have the patience or computer skills to deal with the hit or miss FW update process with the UMC-200.

Bill

Can appreciate that thought Bill ; this upgrade and its potential with its many steps to brick my 200 means a loong trip back to tennessee from aus . Ime used to plugging in thumb drives for pvr's or letting the ethernet do my oppo ; no expert here and in no hurry to wait for a solid step by step method for a windows 8 pc wink.gif
Quote:
Third, several people have asked for an update log, but as far as I know nobody here has promised to provide one. The reason is that some "fixes" or changes affect multiple issues, and some issues may be affected by multiple firmware changes. We MAY provide a partial list of items addressed - but that is NOT a promise.

Curious ; it is par for the course that some things inevitably are broken when a new firmware is released sometimes - even for oppo - but a bit of transparency would only be appreciated you'd think ..
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post #189 of 530 Old 05-20-2013, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

I did not have to install the firmware myself and until they offered me a unit with a fixed firmware, my review would have been much more tepid than it was. While the unit sounded great (especially for the price), I felt that it was flawed and had some issues that needed to be fixed. When Emotiva sent me a second unit (with the new firmware), every issue I had with the piece was fixed. They told my editor at the time that the firmware would be released about a week after we posted the review online. Frankly, if I'd have known it would be nearly 8 weeks before the firmware would be released, I think the tone of my review would have been different. Furthermore, seeing what hoops you have to jump through in order to update the firmware, I'm pretty shocked at how complicated it is. Most "non-AVS" users won't be able to handle this very well IMO.

Thanks David , I appreciate your forthright reply.

I did the new firmware install yesterday and did some listening last night and was blown away by how much better the umc-200 now sounds via EmoQ.

My earlier efforts made some vocals sound a bit strident, now they're smooth as silk and soundstaging is through the back wall.

I was surprised by some of the eq'ing... +12db at some frequencies, I lowered those by 6db without any perceptible effect.

I have to admit the frustration loading the new firmware was well worth it.... now.

Thanks again, I look forward to reading more of your reviews.

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post #190 of 530 Old 05-20-2013, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I certainly have no ill will towards Emotiva. Although it would have been nice if the staff member who disabled my account had given a reason why. My last posts on the Lounge were in the UMC-200 Update thread (#115 and #116) which don't seem to be the type of posts to get one banned IMO.

Bill

I have followed your posts there,all reasonable, and my initial response was...WTF!

Doesn't make sense.

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post #191 of 530 Old 05-20-2013, 03:58 PM
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I like it how he (Keith) ignored my response to his post quoting me, indicating that a changelog was promised.

His posts now have resorted to sarcastic replies along the lines of 'if other companies do crap jobs, then it makes it alright for us to do a crap job.'

Either the list is embarassing, as it misses things, or they dont want the fixes to be tested by users.
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post #192 of 530 Old 05-20-2013, 04:54 PM
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Keith seems like a very arrogant individual. He's comparing a small A/V company to NASA and Microsoft. He states "no change log was promised", yet Dan (the president of the company) started the damn thread and said a list of fixes would be posted before the firmware release. Sounds like a promise to me. I'd post my thoughts there, but I'd get banned again.

It's these cans! He hates these cans!
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post #193 of 530 Old 05-20-2013, 05:13 PM
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I really think it would be in Emotiva's best interest if they banned KeithL from the Lounge biggrin.gif. I agree that the comparison to NASA is a joke and just more excuses IMO. I respect companies that step up and admit their mistakes and do not offer up excuses like "well other companies have issues as well".

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post #194 of 530 Old 05-20-2013, 05:17 PM
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Yeah I replied with the same directly under his post, which he conveniently seemed to ignore.

It seems to me that many of these users must get some sort of enjoyment out of pain, as even those that have gone through the rigmorale of the update seem to come out the other side with "emotiva is awsome".

Still yet to update my UMC-200, was hoping for a changelog, but I doubt its coming.

This also concerned me a bit:
Quote:
Anyone else notice that Emo-q has become really gullible? Anyone else with adjustable bass on their speakers try turning the bass way up and see what Emo-q does. It will turn the speaker volume way low compared to the other speakers and make no EQ adjustments. I started poking at it because I did not like my Emo-q results after the update. I may have got lucky with my previous Emo-q run that went well before the update. Manuel EQ seems to be the most reasonable method at this point.
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post #195 of 530 Old 05-20-2013, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I certainly have no ill will towards Emotiva. Although it would have been nice if the staff member who disabled my account had given a reason why. My last posts on the Lounge were in the UMC-200 Update thread (#115 and #116) which don't seem to be the type of posts to get one banned IMO.

Bill

I do not understand why you were booted off. You are always so positive in your Emotiva comments. Almost to the point of being a fanboy. smile.gifsmile.gif

Seriously, WTF is Emotiva thinking. I have been a long time supporter (that may change). Maybe because I have not met Keith. Regardless of their excellent support after the sale they are out of order IMO for the way they treated you.
I would think that post 128 and 132 also got booted.
After days or months of promises the release is made on Friday and now Emotiva acts as if owners should have waited until beginning of the week to upgrade. If their process wasn't so screwed up it would not matter when the update was performed.
I will stop now before I talk myself out of a UMC-200.
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post #196 of 530 Old 05-20-2013, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

I do not understand why you were booted off. You are always so positive in your Emotiva comments. Almost to the point of being a fanboy. smile.gifsmile.gif

Seriously, WTF is Emotiva thinking. I have been a long time supporter (that may change). Maybe because I have not met Keith. Regardless of their excellent support after the sale they are out of order IMO for the way they treated you.
I would think that post 128 and 132 also got booted.
After days or months of promises the release is made on Friday and now Emotiva acts as if owners should have waited until beginning of the week to upgrade. If their process wasn't so screwed up it would not matter when the update was performed.
I will stop now before I talk myself out of a UMC-200.

That's the rough part. The UMC-200 is a really good pre/pro. At least if you do order one, the update will have been installed at the factory. EmoQ worked much better for me (even before the update that I won't do until I can read the change log) than Audyssey XT from my old Marantz SR5006.

I really like their products and what Dan is trying to do, but it's like they spread their resources too wide. At certain aspects, their customer service is amazing, yet they can't post a simple list on a web page. I mean the XMC has been "coming soon" for over 5 years, and is listed on their product page for at least a year. I don't like that.

If you question it over on their boards, you get chastised. I did when someone had already bought Denon 4520, and I said try it without external amps first. SOME people flipped out. I worry if I post anything that can be construed as a negative comment, I'll get flamed by the fan boys or banned by the mods.

It's these cans! He hates these cans!
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post #197 of 530 Old 05-20-2013, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

I do not understand why you were booted off. You are always so positive in your Emotiva comments. Almost to the point of being a fanboy. smile.gifsmile.gif

Seriously, WTF is Emotiva thinking. I have been a long time supporter (that may change). Maybe because I have not met Keith. Regardless of their excellent support after the sale they are out of order IMO for the way they treated you.
I would think that post 128 and 132 also got booted.
After days or months of promises the release is made on Friday and now Emotiva acts as if owners should have waited until beginning of the week to upgrade. If their process wasn't so screwed up it would not matter when the update was performed.
I will stop now before I talk myself out of a UMC-200.

Mud,

Thanks, I appreciate your thoughts smile.gif. I knew you would see right thru me that I'm an Emotiva fanboy at heart wink.gif. Hold on as I pour another glass of bluberry Kool-Aid biggrin.gif.

Bill


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post #198 of 530 Old 05-20-2013, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by gostillerz View Post

That's the rough part. The UMC-200 is a really good pre/pro. At least if you do order one, the update will have been installed at the factory. EmoQ worked much better for me (even before the update that I won't do until I can read the change log) than Audyssey XT from my old Marantz SR5006.

I really like their products and what Dan is trying to do, but it's like they spread their resources too wide. At certain aspects, their customer service is amazing, yet they can't post a simple list on a web page. I mean the XMC has been "coming soon" for over 5 years, and is listed on their product page for at least a year. I don't like that.

If you question it over on their boards, you get chastised. I did when someone had already bought Denon 4520, and I said try it without external amps first. SOME people flipped out. I worry if I post anything that can be construed as a negative comment, I'll get flamed by the fan boys or banned by the mods.

gostillerz,

I'm glad the FW update worked out well and that Emo-Q is working better smile.gif. I wanted to order the UMC-200 and compare it to the 4311. But with the recent events I'll pass and stay with the 4311 which is working just fine. I recall the posts about the 4520 rolleyes.gif.

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Who cares whether you get kicked off emo lounge. Just create another profile . There is always ways around it. Send pm's to people you like and let them know who you are
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post #200 of 530 Old 05-20-2013, 08:53 PM
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Who cares whether you get kicked off emo lounge. Just create another profile . There is always ways around it. Send pm's to people you like and let them know who you are

Whats the point of that? Like I'm going to disguise myself so I can post on the Lounge. Not my style, no thanks smile.gif.

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post #201 of 530 Old 05-21-2013, 01:26 AM
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Isn't the point of posting on a forum to talk to your buddies and help others. Walking on tippy toes to not piss off the mods is crazy to me. Seeing other people post here too scared to put it on emo lounge is not my style. If they run a blue koolaid gang their then don't bother and be better for it. If most of the people on emo are on here , then its no loss. Some of the People who run forums are like border patrol. Inflated importance of there actual worth .
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post #202 of 530 Old 05-21-2013, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Well when I attempted to log on to my Lounge account a short while ago I got this message "An Error Has Occurred. Your account has been disabled by a staff member. You will be able to access your account again on Jun 18, 2013, 11:36am". I didn't think any of my recent posts on the Lounge warranted the ban but I guess not. I've been a member over there for a number of years and I've never been banned. Oh well I guess the decision to buy the UMC-200 has been made a lot easier wink.gif.

Bill

Bill,

I have seen posts in several different boards from various people that they too have been "Banned" over at Emo. Seems like any comments about the f/w update and a specific staff member's approach in his posts have resulted in this step.

Looks like Emotiva is in full blown defence of the update and that same staff member. Looks like my 200 will be going out the door at a sale price without a f/w update. LoL

V
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post #203 of 530 Old 05-21-2013, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

I did not have to install the firmware myself and until they offered me a unit with a fixed firmware, my review would have been much more tepid than it was. While the unit sounded great (especially for the price), I felt that it was flawed and had some issues that needed to be fixed. When Emotiva sent me a second unit (with the new firmware), every issue I had with the piece was fixed. They told my editor at the time that the firmware would be released about a week after we posted the review online. Frankly, if I'd have known it would be nearly 8 weeks before the firmware would be released, I think the tone of my review would have been different. Furthermore, seeing what hoops you have to jump through in order to update the firmware, I'm pretty shocked at how complicated it is. Most "non-AVS" users won't be able to handle this very well IMO.

David,

It would be interesting to see you get an original UMC-200 and have you do the f/w update yourself THEN evaluate the 200 with shipping firmware. Who knows if the items you believe were corrected by the beta got included in the actual release.

Reviewing a beta (don't mean to offend here) is not reality, and can cause people to believe the product is something that it will never be.

V
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post #204 of 530 Old 05-21-2013, 06:31 AM
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KeithL's posts are and always have had a tinge of arrogance. With the UMC-200s f/w update he has gone quite crazy with his slamming customers, other companies and his bugger off if you don't like it that's just too bad.

Seems like Andrew is towing the party line defending the f/w update software & process blaming people for not following Emotiva's instructions word for word & step-by-step.

I expect to see many more banned people there unless someone at Emotiva pulls his access. I would say this is an indication of things to come from Emo & their attitude on the forum.

I know that I had planned on getting the XMC-1 but I don't believe they will be able to bring the product as envisioned to market.

It's a sad day for ID customers.
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post #205 of 530 Old 05-21-2013, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visiter555 View Post

David,

It would be interesting to see you get an original UMC-200 and have you do the f/w update yourself THEN evaluate the 200 with shipping firmware. Who knows if the items you believe were corrected by the beta got included in the actual release.

Reviewing a beta (don't mean to offend here) is not reality, and can cause people to believe the product is something that it will never be.

V

Emotiva told us at the time that this was the firmware they were planning to release. It fixed every flaw that I had found in my testing. Given the nature of "moving targets" with firmware updates from EVERY manufacturer these days, this would literally be impossible to accomplish because another firmware could be just around the corner that could fix one thing and break another.

David Vaughn

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Sound & Vision Magazine (Print & Online)

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post #206 of 530 Old 05-21-2013, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

Emotiva told us at the time that this was the firmware they were planning to release. It fixed every flaw that I had found in my testing. Given the nature of "moving targets" with firmware updates from EVERY manufacturer these days, this would literally be impossible to accomplish because another firmware could be just around the corner that could fix one thing and break another.

All this was reference in the review so I do not see the problem.
It is Emotiva's credibiltiy that takes the ding.
A simple statement from them would have been all that was needed to explain the delay.

- Rich

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post #207 of 530 Old 05-21-2013, 11:10 AM
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David,

As was asked by someone earlier, will you be reviewing a production version or updating your review to clarify the beta nature and that it may not have been the same fixes released that were on the unit you reviewed?

V
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post #208 of 530 Old 05-21-2013, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

I do not understand why you were booted off. You are always so positive in your Emotiva comments.
The answer lies in this quote from George Orwell's novel, 1984.

“He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.”

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #209 of 530 Old 05-21-2013, 12:02 PM
 
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I guess I tried to control the past er, the present, um, what I mean to say is I got booted too and got absolutely no warning or anything. I mean it's their sand box, but I think their sand has some hidden surprises from the neighbourhood cats.
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post #210 of 530 Old 05-21-2013, 01:03 PM
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Let me introduce myself. I am an Emotiva UMC-200 owner, and this is my first post to this forum. I have been following this thread for the past week. I don't post much on any forum, but I read a lot.

It took 3 days, 4 different computers, 6 different usb cables, and 3 different methods to finally get the firmware update to work on my UMC-200. I can't really tell how many hours I spent working on this. What really bothered me about all of this was that Emotiva offered absolutely no help to users who were stuck in the endless loading loop. It was the members of the forum who actually worked out a method to actually get the firmware to update. KeithL's remark that some units might be different from others so that the firmware update didn't work on those has me worried. I had already experienced KeithL's condescending attitude in a series of emails where I was seeking help with the sound modes. He didn't seem to understand that the unit would not remember sound mode setting after the unit was turned off. After I asked him had he actually used a UMC-200, he turned around and admitted there was a problem and that a new firmware would be out in about 2 weeks; this was at the end of January. So I understand the frustration of UMC-200 owners. I no longer have any faith in Emotiva, Another Emotiva forum member was told by a moderator in a different thread that if he didn't like Emotiva to just move on. I'm moving on. My UMC-200 will be going out the door just as soon as I find a replacement.
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