2013 4K Harman Kardon AVR 2700 & 3700 receivers - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 793 Old 06-04-2014, 11:32 AM
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Going to return my AVR 2700 receiver on Friday.  The engineers can't seem to find what's wrong.  I hope the new unit works with my LG UHD TV.

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post #722 of 793 Old 06-04-2014, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stockjock View Post

Here's a question. I have an older Harman Kardon AVR 520. It came out before HDMI cables or even flat screen HDTVs really, but it's built like a tank, performs flawlessly, and sounds pretty good to my ears.

Would it be wise to consider the AVR 2700 if I could get one at a decent price? Or should I subscribe to the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" theorem and stick with my older, albeit still high quality AVR 520 as long as it continues to perform well?

Where you are lacking in the latest surround sound technologies, the 520 has an excellent amp section that even the AVR 3700 (step up to the 2700) can't touch. I have two suggestions: buy a AVR 3700 and use the multi channel pre outs (the AVR 2700 only has a subwoofer pre out) and connect to the AVR 520 and use the AVR 3700 as a pre amp and the 520 as your power amp OR the least expensive solution is to hunt down an AVR 3600. The 3600 is the last of the true high current H/K receivers and would be the closest to the power of the AVR 520 and still give you the up to date surround codecs, hdmi, Dolby Volume, and a strong amp section. It even has pre outs to hook up extra power amplifiers if you desire. Hope this helps...
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post #723 of 793 Old 06-04-2014, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by corchid View Post

The 3600 is the last of the true high current H/K receivers and would be the closest to the power of the AVR 520 and still give you the up to date surround codecs, hdmi, Dolby Volume, and a strong amp section. It even has pre outs to hook up extra power amplifiers if you desire. Hope this helps...

Does the AVR 3650 have the same high current design or no?
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post #724 of 793 Old 06-04-2014, 04:52 PM
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Does the AVR 3650 have the same high current design or no?

No it does not. Before the 3650, the Harman Kardon design team moved from here in the U.S. to China where they started taking the "over designs" away from the power supplies. The AVR 3600 weighs 4 lbs more than the 3650 (due to bigger power supply in the 3600). The 3650 is rated at 110 watts per channel in 2 channel mode but look at this all channels driven test-- http://www.soundandvision.com/content/harman-kardon-avr-3650-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures Harman Kardon also changed the way they rated their amplifiers so I know for a fact the AVR 3600 is more powerful (even though it's spec'd at only 80 watts). I also own the AVR 3600 and it provides more than enough power (I also had a THX Ultra Onkyo AVR before the H/K and at least in my system, the 3600 seems to have as much power but better sound quality than the 50+ lb. Onkyo TX-SR805).
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post #725 of 793 Old 06-04-2014, 05:00 PM
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I have had HK AVRs back to the 7000. More recently I have had 240,430, 645, 3650, 7550 & 3700.

There is no comparison to the old school VS new (3600-3700) My 7550 was by far the best, the 3600-3700 could not hold a candle to the 645 as far as audio dynamics,

I returned my defective 7550 & got the 3700 which I absolutely hated (sonically) Harman was nice enough to fix & return my 7550 & I could not be happier.
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post #726 of 793 Old 06-04-2014, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by e30cabrio View Post

I have had HK AVRs back to the 7000. More recently I have had 240,430, 645, 3650, 7550 & 3700.

There is no comparison to the old school VS new (3600-3700) My 7550 was by far the best, the 3600-3700 could not hold a candle to the 645 as far as audio dynamics,

I returned my defective 7550 & got the 3700 which I absolutely hated (sonically) Harman was nice enough to fix & return my 7550 & I could not be happier.

I completely agree about the old school (U.S. designed) vs the new school (Chinese designed). Of course we have to keep in mind comparing these AVRs that the 520, 645 and even 7550 don't even have anything recent to compare them to since H/K's top of the line now is the "3 series" (AVR 3700, 3650, 3600, 345, 320 etc). Not even my beloved 3600 can hold a candle to the higher end H/K's of yesteryear of course but I will put it up against anything in it's price range or series!
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post #727 of 793 Old 06-18-2014, 01:24 PM
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well we are getting one for free, the catalouge we were given made it look like we'd get a 2700 but, instead it's a 1710.

http://www.harmankardon.com/estore/h...R%201710_HK_US

is it any good? is it even close to comparable with the 2700? is it a piece of crap?
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post #728 of 793 Old 06-18-2014, 03:00 PM
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I'm still rocking a HK AVR 1600. Rated at 45watts/channel it can blow me out of the room with movies and has as much power as I need for music since upgrading to Klipsch.

Too bad it is the last HK I will buy.

When I replace it, it will likely be with a Denon that has subEQ.

It has been a great and trouble free receiver since the day I got.

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post #729 of 793 Old 06-19-2014, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by e30cabrio View Post
I have had HK AVRs back to the 7000. More recently I have had 240,430, 645, 3650, 7550 & 3700.

There is no comparison to the old school VS new (3600-3700) My 7550 was by far the best, the 3600-3700 could not hold a candle to the 645 as far as audio dynamics,

I returned my defective 7550 & got the 3700 which I absolutely hated (sonically) Harman was nice enough to fix & return my 7550 & I could not be happier.
Okay, should I assume that the AVR3600 or even AVR2600 (for example) has a better amplifier than my AVR520 since it has a lot more current and is US designed? Or is that not correct?

Last edited by stockjock; 06-19-2014 at 09:29 AM.
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post #730 of 793 Old 06-19-2014, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by stockjock View Post
Okay, should I assume that the AVR3600 or even AVR2600 (for example) has a better amplifier than my AVR520 since it has a lot more current and is US designed? Or is that not correct?

I have no 3600 experience. Perhaps M Code can enlighten us on that.

I can say I love the 7550!
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post #731 of 793 Old 06-27-2014, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by stockjock View Post
Okay, should I assume that the AVR3600 or even AVR2600 (for example) has a better amplifier than my AVR520 since it has a lot more current and is US designed? Or is that not correct?
No, your avr 520 is actually stronger than both the 3600 and 2600.

Specs: avr 520 85 x2, 75 all channels driven, 45 amp HCC, 35lb
avr 3600 80x2, 60 all channels driven, 35 amp HCC, 31.5lb
avr 2600 65x2, 55 all channels driven, 35 amp HCC, 26lb

Old school of thought is the heavier the receiver, the bigger the power supply, heatsinks, etc. The 3600 is the closest to the power of your 520 with most of the modern features (hdmi, dolby volume, dolby true hd, dts master, high def on screen display with overlay). The more recent HKs (avr 2650, 3650, 2700, 3700) really aren't even TRUE high current amplifiers any more. The HCC spec with those are probably marketing fluff now. Harman Kardon is no longer what they used to be.....
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post #732 of 793 Old 07-01-2014, 12:52 PM
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Would the Denon Amplifiers be considered as good as the HK. I like my HK 2700 but the Denon x1100 has features which interest me. What about the new sony 850 or 1050. Would they compare?
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post #733 of 793 Old 07-01-2014, 03:02 PM
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Would the Denon Amplifiers be considered as good as the HK. I like my HK 2700 but the Denon x1100 has features which interest me. What about the new sony 850 or 1050. Would they compare?
I used to be a Denon fan before I got H/K. To my ears, Denon has a sterile/dead sound to them. Just for example I had a Denon e-300 in my bedroom system and was impressed with the features but not the sound. I replaced it with a H/K avr 1700 and the sound is MUCH better. No comparison. Denon had more networking features, Audyssey, etc but the H/K sounds more dynamic with much better imaging and midrange with smooth highs. I also replaced a Denon AVR-2808ci with my H/K avr 3600 and found the amp section on the Harman to be much better sounding (and more powerful despite being rated for less power:80W vs 110W). Sony is not known for good sounding receivers at all.

Harman Kardon>Denon>Sony given the same price points....
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post #734 of 793 Old 07-01-2014, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by corchid View Post
I used to be a Denon fan before I got H/K. To my ears, Denon has a sterile/dead sound to them. Just for example I had a Denon e-300 in my bedroom system and was impressed with the features but not the sound. I replaced it with a H/K avr 1700 and the sound is MUCH better. No comparison. Denon had more networking features, Audyssey, etc but the H/K sounds more dynamic with much better imaging and midrange with smooth highs. I also replaced a Denon AVR-2808ci with my H/K avr 3600 and found the amp section on the Harman to be much better sounding (and more powerful despite being rated for less power:80W vs 110W). Sony is not known for good sounding receivers at all.

Harman Kardon>Denon>Sony given the same price points....
I just wanted to hear it for myself. I had just purchased my 2700 and then the 1710 was just release I emailed HK to ask what was the difference as they have the same wattage output? The HK guy said that the 2700 had a better components, higher quality amp section. They both have the same power output, the 1710 has a higher power consumption.
I also can can honestly say Dolby volume works. Even with the volume at -40 the dialogue is clear.
They say the true quality of an amplifier is shown when playing music, the HK sounds so much better than my 2 previous AV receivers (pioneer and yamaha), and you don't need room correction. If anyone has the JBL Studio 5 loudspeakers try an HK 2700 or 3700. You will be surprised.. I also agree about the volume. The previous owned pioneer was rated at 49.5 watts per channel x 5 at 8 ohms, the HK is rated at about 35W x 5 at 6 ohms. I actually find the HK more powerful with better dynamics, plus doesn't distort at high volume levels. 5 channels continuous rating is misleading I believe. When watching a movie or TV when are all 5 channels outputting content at the same volume at the same time. Plus, the majority of dialogue is from the centre channel which is usually a speaker with better sensitivity. Am I correct about this?

Last edited by Paulo72; 07-02-2014 at 09:51 AM.
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post #735 of 793 Old 07-02-2014, 03:59 PM
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I just wanted to hear it for myself. I had just purchased my 2700 and then the 1710 was just release I emailed HK to ask what was the difference as they have the same wattage output? The HK guy said that the 2700 had a better components, higher quality amp section. They both have the same power output, the 1710 has a higher power consumption.
I also can can honestly say Dolby volume works. Even with the volume at -40 the dialogue is clear.
They say the true quality of an amplifier is shown when playing music, the HK sounds so much better than my 2 previous AV receivers (pioneer and yamaha), and you don't need room correction. If anyone has the JBL Studio 5 loudspeakers try an HK 2700 or 3700. You will be surprised.. I also agree about the volume. The previous owned pioneer was rated at 49.5 watts per channel x 5 at 8 ohms, the HK is rated at about 35W x 5 at 6 ohms. I actually find the HK more powerful with better dynamics, plus doesn't distort at high volume levels. 5 channels continuous rating is misleading I believe. When watching a movie or TV when are all 5 channels outputting content at the same volume at the same time. Plus, the majority of dialogue is from the centre channel which is usually a speaker with better sensitivity. Am I correct about this?
You're right about everything about the sensitivity about center channel speakers. The center channel carries more than 50% of the movie sound and most of the dialog but it does not mean the center channel speaker is more sensitive. In fact, I have the Boston Acoustics Horizon Series and Boston rates all the speakers with the same sensitivity spec (89db 1W/1M). Also, you're correct about the all channels driven test being overrated. Movie and TV watching usually only stresses one or two channels at a time and distance compensation and program material also helps as well. All channels driven test means the signal would hit all channels at once, at the same time (no delays, distance compensation), and be at the same signal level and be in phase for that spec to matter in everyday listening.
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post #736 of 793 Old 07-02-2014, 04:06 PM
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You're right about everything about the sensitivity about center channel speakers. The center channel carries more than 50% of the movie sound and most of the dialog but it does not mean the center channel speaker is more sensitive. In fact, I have the Boston Acoustics Horizon Series and Boston rates all the speakers with the same sensitivity spec (89db 1W/1M). Also, you're correct about the all channels driven test being overrated. Movie and TV watching usually only stresses one or two channels at a time and distance compensation and program material also helps as well. All channels driven test means the signal would hit all channels at once, at the same time (no delays, distance compensation), and be at the same signal level and be in phase for that spec to matter in everyday listening.
The JBL 530's are rated at 86db but the 520C at 88db (centre channel) . The sensitivity is just average but they are easy to drive and very dynamic speakers. They get even better once broken in, plus they are 6ohms, which extracts a little bit more power out of an amp. Talking about amplifier power , the HK 3700 is rated at 125 watts x 2 at 0.07% distortion. Sound and Vision tested it. It was 151 Watts x 2 at 0.1% distortion at 8 ohms. What alot of people don't realize is to get double the volume (spl) you have to increase power output (wattage) 10 times, which is why an amp pushing out 25 extra watts isn't noticeable. I myself own the HK 2700, I don't need the preouts or zone 2. I didn't want to spend another $200 for the 3700.

Last edited by Paulo72; 07-02-2014 at 04:19 PM.
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post #737 of 793 Old 07-02-2014, 04:10 PM
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The JBL 530's are rated at 86db but the 520C at 88db (centre channel) . The sensitivity is just average but they are easy to drive and dynamic speakers They get even better once broken in, plus they are 6ohms, which push a little bit more power out of an amp.
It just depends on the speakers. My Bostons are the same but my Polk Blackstone TL1900 5.1 set, the center is a little more sensitive. My Polk Monitors I had before the Bostons, the center was rated a 1db lower.
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post #738 of 793 Old 07-02-2014, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo72 View Post
The JBL 530's are rated at 86db but the 520C at 88db (centre channel) . The sensitivity is just average but they are easy to drive and very dynamic speakers. They get even better once broken in, plus they are 6ohms, which extracts a little bit more power out of an amp. Talking about amplifier power , the HK 3700 is rated at 125 watts x 2 at 0.07% distortion. Sound and Vision tested it. It was 151 Watts x 2 at 0.1% distortion at 8 ohms. What alot of people don't realize is to get double the volume (spl) you have to increase power output (wattage) 10 times, which is why an amp pushing out 25 extra watts isn't noticeable. I myself own the HK 2700, I don't need the preouts or zone 2. I didn't want to spend another $200 for the 3700.

Just an observation...
Sound & Vision run their tests @ 1kHz, not the full bandwidth of 20Hz-20kHz...
Therefore to make a correct & proper comparsion, decrease their rating by @ least 30%..

Just my $0.05...
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post #739 of 793 Old 07-03-2014, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Just an observation...
Sound & Vision run their tests @ 1kHz, not the full bandwidth of 20Hz-20kHz...
Therefore to make a correct & proper comparsion, decrease their rating by @ least 30%..

Just my $0.05...

Thanks for letting me know. I also saw the output ratings on a German website. The 3700 was rated at 44W (6ohms @ 1kHz) for 5 channels driven continuosly. They rated the 3700 for stereo performance 8/10 and surround at 24/30. Power output is not very high, but I find I don't need more. I never have approached -10db on the volume scale, plus I can't have it too loud, live in a condo. Low volume clarity and dynamics with dolby volume engaged is second to none.
For music I turn it off. Plus I don't use ez set/eq, I find it muffles the sound reducing the dynamics and clarity.

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post #740 of 793 Old 07-03-2014, 07:52 AM
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Thanks for letting me know. I also saw the output ratings on a German website. The 3700 was rated at 44W (6ohms @ 1kHz) for 5 channels driven continuosly. They rated the 3700 for stereo performance 8/10 and surround at 24/30. Power output is not very high, but I find I don't need more. I never have approached -10db on the volume scale, plus I can't have it too loud, live in a condo. Low volume clarity and dynamics with dolby volume engaged is second to none.
For music I turn it off. Plus I don't use ez set/eq, I find it muffles the sound reducing the dynamics and clarity.
Got it..
Just wanted to clarify the specs.. Many just look for the biggest number and expect they are getting the most power output.. The HK has excellent amplifiers, however like the other brands they are reducing the VA capabilty of the power supply.. That would never have happened if Dr.Harman was still alive and running the brands...

Just my $0.05...
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post #741 of 793 Old 07-04-2014, 10:24 AM
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Got it..
Just wanted to clarify the specs.. Many just look for the biggest number and expect they are getting the most power output.. The HK has excellent amplifiers, however like the other brands they are reducing the VA capabilty of the power supply.. That would never have happened if Dr.Harman was still alive and running the brands...

Just my $0.05...

The new sony avr's get rave reviews. Would it be worthwhile to try one? I'm scared I would be wasting my money.
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post #742 of 793 Old 07-10-2014, 11:54 AM
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Just an observation...
Sound & Vision run their tests @ 1kHz, not the full bandwidth of 20Hz-20kHz...
Therefore to make a correct & proper comparsion, decrease their rating by @ least 30%..

Just my $0.05...

Mr. M Code. I remember reading that you worked on the development of HK receiver's You mentioned that HK design and produce top quality amplifiers, the problem is their new power supplies in the av receivers which have decreased in quality. Are the new SMPS power supplies as good as the older analogue? How would the HK amps compare to the new Sony str-dn 850/1050? I was thinking of replacing my 2700 for the new Sony 850. Would you consider this a not so smart idea? Especially when it comes to sound quality.

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post #743 of 793 Old 07-10-2014, 06:17 PM
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Mr. M Code. I remember reading that you worked on the development of HK receiver's You mentioned that HK design and produce top quality amplifiers, the problem is their new power supplies in the av receivers which have decreased in quality. Are the new SMPS power supplies as good as the older analogue? How would the HK amps compare to the new Sony str-dn 850/1050? I was thinking of replacing my 2700 for the new Sony 850. Would you consider this a not so smart idea? Especially when it comes to sound quality.

We developed the SMPS for HK 5 years ago and it took up to the 1700/2700/3700 before they decided to implement..
Frankly speaking, we don't know what other design changes they applied, the SMPS we developed had very comparable specs to the original EL linear supply. But now due to increased cost pressures and totally different executive/product management we don't how much was cut out...
Additionally they adopted this BS method of hyped/stretched power specs...

Maybe if the loudspeakers are subwoofer/satellite systems played @ reasonable levels not much audible differences, but if pushing full-range @ higher levels certain audible clipping problems are likely.. If we had an AVR sample, we could measure it and qwikly quantify the differences. But now our technical resources have shifted from AVRs to soundbars and wireless connectivity components.. We have been approached to get back into the AVR segment but unfortunately the market has taken a dive for the worst..
Pushing for increased HDMI input/outputs, more advertised watts, lower costs, cheaper build quality, no overdesign, obsolesence/throw away mentality..

For sure, they have less real power, shorter product life...

Just my $0.05...
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post #744 of 793 Old 07-11-2014, 03:16 PM
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Did I make a mistake getting the 2700> I own B&W speakers and returned a Pioneer 1223-K for this.
I am finding the Bass Boomy and feel the 1223-K sounded better.

Is it because it was a class D3 amp?

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post #745 of 793 Old 07-11-2014, 03:28 PM
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Did I make a mistake getting the 2700> I own B&W speakers and returned a Pioneer 1223-K for this.
I am finding the Bass Boomy and feel the 1223-K sounded better.

Is it because it was a class D3 amp?

Are you using Logic 7, try Pro Logic. What content are you playing that's boomy (movies, music)? I find logic 7 can be boomy. Have you manually calibrated you speakers (spl meter), you also may have to change your crossover settings. For music turn off Dolby Volume, I notice the same thing with. music. Try loweing your sub gain. Is your subwoofer positioned in a corner or close to a wall. The reason why could be many factors.
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post #746 of 793 Old 07-11-2014, 03:35 PM
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Thanks for getting right back to me.

I turned off Dolby and that helped a lot. I also tried Pro Logic and the bass is much better.

I did not have this issue with the Pioneer.

Question, is a D3 amp better that the HK 2700?

Now the sound sounds clearer to me.

So when I watch a movie, I have to reset everything again?

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post #747 of 793 Old 07-11-2014, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frocco View Post
Thanks for getting right back to me.

I turned off Dolby and that helped a lot. I also tried Pro Logic and the bass is much better.

I did not have this issue with the Pioneer.

Question, is a D3 amp better that the HK 2700?

Now the sound sounds clearer to me.

So when I watch a movie, I have to reset everything again?

I have no idea if the pioneer D3 amps are better. I've heard they are good. As MCode mentioned, HK amps are excellent, they are cheaping out on their power supplies, as is the majority of manufacturers. I find turning off Ez Set/Eq improves clarity, open up the sound and makes the bass punchier. At least it does with my speakers. Logic 7 is only found on Harman Kardon Brands. I believe was designed by Lexicon? You don't have to reset everything to turn off ez set/eq. It can easily be switched off in the 2700/3700.

Last edited by Paulo72; 07-11-2014 at 06:45 PM.
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post #748 of 793 Old 07-11-2014, 06:02 PM
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I also am not getting Art Work displayed on the TV when I use AirPlay.
Is this normal?

Thanks

Frank
TC-P50-ST30
Dish HOPPER with Sling
B&W Speakers/Polk Active Sub
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post #749 of 793 Old 07-15-2014, 08:52 AM
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I mentioned on how the sound opened up after turning off the ez set/eq. After I did the latest firmware update on my 2700 I left it at that. Lately I tried turning it back on. Funny thing is I actually prefer the sound now with the ez set/eq turned on. Weird. Does anybody know if the latest firmware update changed anything which would lead to this conclusion, or maybe it's my ears? Maybe my speakers are finally broken in? I actually find the sound clearer, where as before I found it muffled with ez set/eq turned on. Also I know have the initial volume when turning on the receiver to -25 (default) where as before I had it set to -30. Maybe that affects my perception as my brains perception changes with the initial increase in volume/dynamics. The mind is a funny thing. The sound is so nice. I cannot believe I was actually thinking of replacing the HK with a sony or denon. I had a pioneer before. It sounded ok, after a lot of tweaking. The pioneer didn't have the depth and dynamics of the HK.

Last edited by Paulo72; 07-15-2014 at 11:25 AM.
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post #750 of 793 Old 07-15-2014, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
We developed the SMPS for HK 5 years ago and it took up to the 1700/2700/3700 before they decided to implement..
Frankly speaking, we don't know what other design changes they applied, the SMPS we developed had very comparable specs to the original EL linear supply. But now due to increased cost pressures and totally different executive/product management we don't how much was cut out...
Additionally they adopted this BS method of hyped/stretched power specs...

Maybe if the loudspeakers are subwoofer/satellite systems played @ reasonable levels not much audible differences, but if pushing full-range @ higher levels certain audible clipping problems are likely.. If we had an AVR sample, we could measure it and qwikly quantify the differences. But now our technical resources have shifted from AVRs to soundbars and wireless connectivity components.. We have been approached to get back into the AVR segment but unfortunately the market has taken a dive for the worst..
Pushing for increased HDMI input/outputs, more advertised watts, lower costs, cheaper build quality, no overdesign, obsolesence/throw away mentality..

For sure, they have less real power, shorter product life...

Just my $0.05...


I never forget that business begins with a B and ends with a S (BusinesS)
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