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post #31 of 43 Old 04-12-2013, 04:35 PM
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these Theos can go down to 0.8 ohms so I am worried if I'm killing the receiver or at the very least missing out on higher frequency sounds.

Short of a load resistor in series, there really isn't much you can do that wouldn't require major modifications to the Martins.

You will lose max SPL, and still have the same impedence dip, but not below what your amp can safely handle.
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post #32 of 43 Old 04-12-2013, 11:37 PM
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Just to add, subsolar.....

Don't look at the flaws of your Martins in a completely negative light.

If you become inclined to properly resolve the issues with them, you have the advantage of winding up with speakers that are far superior to the overpriced versions Martin sold - and probably far superior to pretty much any other production speaker out there.

It's like buying a cherry '67 Mustang fastback..... who cares if there's a motor or transmission in it, you got the meat - everything else is just gravy.
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post #33 of 43 Old 04-13-2013, 04:03 AM
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to the OP - if looking to keep the budget below $1,000, I can wholeheartedly recommend the Sunfire Stereo amp (either the 200wpc or the 300wpc Signature ) as a good match for the 'Logans.
They have tons of current reserves and never get warm, even at high volumes. Look around on the used market regularly, as they come and go very fast.

They can even handle driving the step-up transformer directly, as they do in my setup where I've bypassed the factory passive crossovers.


regarding Sanders, I will attest to the fact that the combination of his speakers and Amps are first class, so he must know something and things right. His amps deliver excellent results and there are many very satisfied ESL owners using them, even after comparing to high-end Pass and Krell amps, they stick with the Sanders.

More info on MartinLogans and what people use to drive them can be found at the MartinLogan owners site.
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post #34 of 43 Old 04-13-2013, 10:35 AM
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I will attest to the fact that the combination of his speakers and Amps are first class, so he must know something and things right.

The current "Sanders" amp may well be a good one - the first one was.

But then, he didn't design that one either.
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post #35 of 43 Old 04-13-2013, 04:11 PM
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Quite the vendetta going...

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #36 of 43 Old 04-14-2013, 04:19 AM
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^^
sure seems that way

I have an ESL300 Innersound amp & yes, I always knew it was made by Coda to Sanders specs. it is a bit different than the "standard" equivalent Coda amp so I assume that was Roger's doing. all I know is it's a great performer for Maggies wink.gif I wouldn't hesitate to get his higher powered Magtech amp (also built by Coda) regardless of dirty larry's agenda here.

Steve
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post #37 of 43 Old 04-15-2013, 04:44 PM
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all I know is it's a great performer for Maggies

Why wouldn't it be?

It's a conventional amp driving magnetic speakers.

That's my point.
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I wouldn't hesitate to get his higher powered Magtech amp (also built by Coda) regardless of dirty larry's agenda here.

My "agenda" is to clarify the claim that Sanders designed conventional amps specifically to drive ESL's, because he didn't.

One of the many things Sanders never understood is that frequency remains inversely proportional to power in ESL's just as it is in magnetic speakers.

Electrostatic speakers do not use power in the usual sense. So they do not modulate the voltages inside unregulated power supply amplifiers. Therefore the regulated power supply in the Magtech is not as important when driving ESLs as it is when driving magnetic speakers.

That's just stupid.

The lower the frequency you produce, the more air you have to move, and the more power it takes - regardless of whether excursion is induced magnetically or electrostaticlly.

Your speaker may have a flat response, but this certainly doesn't mean it will reproduce a bass drum with the same power input as a cymbal.

Of course an ESL will "modulate" an unregulated supply.
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post #38 of 43 Old 12-26-2014, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by simp1yamazn View Post
I need help figuring out what to use to power a pair of MartinLogan Montis. Right now I have a Yamaha RX-A2010 that is rated at 140wpc with two channels driven. This is my first venture into any type of planar speakers. I need help figuring out if adding an external amp and just using the pre-outs on the yamaha will really bring out the best in the Montis or if it will be a minimal improvement at best. I've come across a good price locally on a Parasound HCA-1205A rated at 140wpc acd and an Emotiva XPA-3.<br><br>
If you guys have any suggestions on other amps I should take a look at I would love to hear it. Thanks!
Hi I have the Montis'. I use Simaudio electronics. There seems to be a nice synergy with this combination.
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post #39 of 43 Old 07-16-2015, 09:38 AM
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I was wondering about OTL tube amps for an ESL63 (it has protection circuitry in place, by Electrostat Solutions).

From Atma-Sphere's website: http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources...fier_Myths.php

Quote:
Load Sensitivity

This myth is slightly more subtle. You probably have heard: "This transistor amp is way less load sensitive than that OTL". Actually, the reverse is true. But how can a transistor amp be MORE load sensitive then an OTL tube amp? Let's look at some typical examples.

Let's say you have a high quality 150/channel transistor amp. 150 watts into 8 ohms, a reasonable amount of power, but if you have a four Ohm speaker its 300 watts. Nice. Into 2 Ohms, if the amp doesn't blow up or current limit, 600 watts. So what does the amp produce driving 16 Ohms? 75 watts. Into 32 Ohms its only 35 watts! This could result in serious problems were the speaker a typical electrostatic, where such impedances are common in the bass frequencies. This explains why transistor amplifiers are usually such a poor match for electrostatic speakers.

This is what the right OTL can do into these impedances: 150 watts into 8 ohms, 145 into four (less than 1/2dB difference), about 80 watts into 2 ohms, but into 16 we have 149 watts, into 32 ohms 145 watts- so you see that as long as the speaker load is moderately well behaved, this OTL example produces far more linear power over the same range of impedances, whereas the transistor amp is quite simply incapable of being linear at all! Why?

When a recording is made, it is assumed that a linear system is to be used so that it is capable of recording the same energy at all frequencies. When we play it back, for best results the playback should be the same at all frequencies, too. If there are variations in the speaker impedance, this will not be possible with a transistor amplifier unless it has a lot of negative feedback (which most of them do), which has the additional effect of decreasing bass impact, restricting dynamics, foreshortening soundstage depth and increasing odd-ordered harmonic distortion.

Thus there is no way that a transistor amp can be described as linear if it is subject to these problems and that is one of the reasons why transistor amps produce so many amusical colorations. The reason has to do with the vanishingly small output impedance of the transistor amp (here's some myth bashing for you). The result is that the transistor amp has what is called a constant voltage characteristic, not constant power, which is of course what a power amp should do!

So, despite the fact that smaller OTL amplifiers don't like four ohm speakers, they are quite capable of giving you a more even power characteristic (read: flatter frequency response, all other things being equal), especially on a speaker with a wild impedance curve.

Now the fact of the matter is if you want a tube amp, even if you don't want an OTL, you should avoid four ohm speakers. This is because output transformers using the four ohm tap will not give nearly the performance that the same transformer will do on eight ohms. Sixteen ohms is better yet. Fortunately, with all the Single-Ended triode amplifiers now available, the market for sixteen ohm speakers has improved quite a lot and they are once again (like they were in the fifties) available. Obviously a transistor amplifier is at a severe power disadvantage on a sixteen ohm load, which is why four ohm speakers became more common in the seventies and eighties.
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post #40 of 43 Old 07-16-2015, 11:15 AM
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There are some holes in those arguments.

I have never heard Atma-Sphere amplifiers.

My previous (long-ago) experience with tube OTL's on older Quads and some other ESLs was not that great. I found the bass not as tight and clean as with a good SS amp, and highs got reduced and distorted due to the low low impedance at high frequencies. The OTL was awesome in the midrange, but so were other tube amps, and with the same drawbacks (to my ears and measurements) in the low bass and upper treble range. I understand the power argument, but still found OTL's higher output impedance a detriment at frequency extremes (though better than conventional transformer-coupled tube amplifiers).

YMMV - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

Last edited by DonH50; 07-16-2015 at 11:28 AM. Reason: typo
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post #41 of 43 Old 08-13-2015, 09:35 PM
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Best budget Amp

i have several maggies and just recieved kit from eraudio, prototype of new acorn. Value is important to me and have tried many amps some of which may work for you. Pass Forte 1a is old but really sounds sweet, Parasound 1200II is a gem, Emo xpr2 almost too much amp, my current setup is Emo xpa-1L's with direct input stealth dc-1 dac's (no pre) which will stay, they sound like nothing is between music and speaks, I cannot hear transition between Class a and a/b but old ears do have limitations..... Good luck on your quest,
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post #42 of 43 Old 08-14-2015, 06:37 AM
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Despite the hype, you would be hard-pressed to find anyone at any age who could hear the transition from class A to AB unless it was set insanely low. There are a myriad of other factors at play...

Enjoy the new toys!

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #43 of 43 Old Today, 02:25 PM
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I'm not qualified to argue with any of the posts in this thread. I will say that my Marantz SR7008 drives my 2 EM-ESL fronts & the Motif-X center channel + 4 Polk RTI-A7's & 2 Polk RTI-A1's in a 9.2 setup without working up a sweat. But then, I listen at sane levels.
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