Denon 2113CI Bi-Wiring Questions - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 6 Old 01-24-2013, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a Denon 2113CI sitting in a box, ready to power a new sound system. I'm about to pull the trigger on a pair of Monitor Audio Silver RX2 speakers. As most decent quality speakers do these days, they have the ability to be bi-wired.

A few questions:

A) The 2113 is 7.1 but I only plan to run 5.1. So that means I would use the "assignable" extra channel as the second input to the "main" speakers, i.e. MA Silvers. Correct?

B) I believe the 2113 is 95 watts / channel. But what happens if I bi-wire the amp to those speakers? Does that mean that there is, in fact, 95watts going to the tweeter, and 95 going to the woofer? In effect, is that a total of 190watts to the speakers??? To say that I'm not clear on this subject, is quite an understatement.

C) Would I need to custom tailor the crossovers for those two channels, to make the one going to the tweeter play the highs, while the other to the woofer plays the lows? How does this factor in if I use Audyssey to set things up? Is there going to be an issue with the bi-wiring and the automated set-up?

Thanks so much.
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post #2 of 6 Old 01-24-2013, 03:00 PM
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Save yourself the anguish of unanswered questions and just forget about bi-wiring, bi-amping your speakers.

There is little to no evidence it does anything other than use twice the amount of wire. smile.gif

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post #3 of 6 Old 01-24-2013, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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While I don't have my own empirical evidence to judge, yet. I will say that I've read equal measures of articles in favor and against. So, I'll likely decide that for myself. If it proves to be of no discernible difference, then I'll know for sure. Nothing lost in trying it.

So, just looking for anyone who can answer my questions, from above. Thanks!
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post #4 of 6 Old 01-25-2013, 03:19 AM
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A. Correct. This configuration is known as "bi-amping" (as far as AVR settings go).
B. First understand in a 5.1 setup the most that any channel would likely get is about 70W (or so) as the 95W rating is for 2CH only, and no, bi-wiring will not only prove to be no benefit but also only passes the same total power to the speaker. Also note that "bi-wiring" would consist of connecting two sets of wires from the "same" set of speaker posts on the AVR (as opposed to #1 above which uses 2 sets of speaker posts on the AVR for "bi-amping").
C. Correct (ie. using active external crossover devices), although not possible with an AVR as it will only pass the same exact signal to each set of speaker posts and bi-amping from an AVR is known as "passive" bi-amping as "active" crossovers are not used (and therefore why this feature on an AVR serves no real purpose to include any appreciable increase in power to the speakers).

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post #5 of 6 Old 01-25-2013, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Nash View Post

I have a Denon 2113CI sitting in a box, ready to power a new sound system. I'm about to pull the trigger on a pair of Monitor Audio Silver RX2 speakers. As most decent quality speakers do these days, they have the ability to be bi-wired.

A few questions:

A) The 2113 is 7.1 but I only plan to run 5.1. So that means I would use the "assignable" extra channel as the second input to the "main" speakers, i.e. MA Silvers. Correct?

What you are thinking about is usually either a waste of time or a bad idea. You are better off letting the unneeded amps stay unused and save the AVR's power supply for the channels that you actually need to use.
Quote:
B) I believe the 2113 is 95 watts / channel. But what happens if I bi-wire the amp to those speakers? Does that mean that there is, in fact, 95watts going to the tweeter, and 95 going to the woofer? In effect, is that a total of 190watts to the speakers??? To say that I'm not clear on this subject, is quite an understatement.

Audio doesn't work that way. The actual amount of power delivered to the speakers depends on the music and the speakers. Most of the time, the power actually coming out of a 95 wpc amp is only a few watts or less.

What you are describing is called passive biamping, and it is based on audiophile myths. Biamping of a kind that makes a positive difference is something else entirely and involves a lot of work - for openers you re-engineer the speakers from near scratch.
Quote:
C) Would I need to custom tailor the crossovers for those two channels, to make the one going to the tweeter play the highs, while the other to the woofer plays the lows? How does this factor in if I use Audyssey to set things up? Is there going to be an issue with the bi-wiring and the automated set-up?

Now you are beginning to see the complexity of the details involved. Usually passive biamping is based on using speakers that separate inputs for the woofer and the tweeter for bi-wiring (another audiophile myth). The speaker's passive crossovers are still in the circuit. Bypassing them is one of the goals of true biamping, but doing that requires a non-trivial electronic crossover that includes the characteristics of the speaker drivers. It would also requiring rewiring the speaker itself to bypass the internal crossovers.
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post #6 of 6 Old 01-25-2013, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

What you are thinking about is usually either a waste of time or a bad idea. You are better off letting the unneeded amps stay unused and save the AVR's power supply for the channels that you actually need to use.
Audio doesn't work that way. The actual amount of power delivered to the speakers depends on the music and the speakers. Most of the time, the power actually coming out of a 95 wpc amp is only a few watts or less.

What you are describing is called passive biamping, and it is based on audiophile myths. Biamping of a kind that makes a positive difference is something else entirely and involves a lot of work - for openers you re-engineer the speakers from near scratch.
Now you are beginning to see the complexity of the details involved. Usually passive biamping is based on using speakers that separate inputs for the woofer and the tweeter for bi-wiring (another audiophile myth). The speaker's passive crossovers are still in the circuit. Bypassing them is one of the goals of true biamping, but doing that requires a non-trivial electronic crossover that includes the characteristics of the speaker drivers. It would also requiring rewiring the speaker itself to bypass the internal crossovers.

+1. To the OP on this issue, FWIW, my research a few years ago led me to conclude that the frequencies in the tweeter range make up no more than 25 percent of the total power in the signal. So the potential power gain is trivial (25 percent power increase is about one decibel, just noticeable to most folks with the right kind of test signals).

Just to put a fine point on it, you understand that a higher power amp can make your speakers louder? So more power = louder? So do you ever turn down? then you're using less power than when you turn up. In a movie with loud dialog at around 85 dB (at reference) there's a chance (especially in bombastic movies) that the power called for by the loudest parts will literally be 100 times the power called for with the dialog. The amp amplifies the input, and when the input is lower, the amp's output is lower.
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