Advice - Receiver for B&W System - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 01-24-2013, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Guys,

need your advice.

Upgrading my Sony STR-DG820 receiver.
Want a receiver with pre-out capabilities, great if it has phono in as well. I'm planning to add an Emotiva XPA-5 to the system later.

Between:
Yamaha RX-A1010 - €875
Yamaha RX-A2010 - €1.059
Denon AVR-3313 - €1.299

The RX-A2010 is looking like a bargain.
Could the Denon be worth the extra money at all?
What do you think? Any other brands I should be looking at?


The receiver will power a B&W 5.1 system:
683s or CM9s - front, still TBD
HTM-61 center
2x 685
PV-1 sub

Sound sources are a Marantz CD6004, PS3 and a Technics turntable.

Thank you in advance!
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post #2 of 24 Old 01-25-2013, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Bump.
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post #3 of 24 Old 01-25-2013, 06:26 PM
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Denon ...with zero reservations. I am just not a fan of Yamaha room correction. Denon sounds 1000x better to my ears. Now if you said Denon 3313 vs. Onkyo 818...you would have me...

They are about equal ...given pro's and con's. 24p bug, relability issues, better room correction, more power, better over all features, no Apple Play....vs Denon better reliability, no 24P problem, less advanced room correction, ...


But from the ones you listed...Denon for sure. Like everything...just my own 2 cents.
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post #4 of 24 Old 01-25-2013, 09:25 PM
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And if you add the Pioneer SC-61 then now we are talking. Denon 3313 vs Onkyo 818 vs Pioneer Sc-61 or Sc63. Form all 3 the Pioneer has the best SQ. I own a Denon 3311 and I love more my Sc1222 in which its the same as the Sc61. I totally agreed with YAmaha. I owned one yamaha in the past and denon 3311 do a way better job on room correction. But Pioneer advanced mcacc I consider is even better. From onkyo and denon I will choose Denon. From Denon and Pioneer I will choose Pioneer.
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post #5 of 24 Old 01-26-2013, 02:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

Now if you said Denon 3313 vs. Onkyo 818...you would have me...

Thanks! The thing is, while the Onkyo is cheaper, after reading about their amps overheating and breaking down, never really trusted the brand, doesn't seem like a good idea to buy something I'm suspicious of.
Will have a better look at the Denon and the following 4520 model.
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post #6 of 24 Old 01-26-2013, 02:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by javygonx View Post

From onkyo and denon I will choose Denon. From Denon and Pioneer I will choose Pioneer.

Thanks! Can't find the models you mention on sale in my area, though, are they older models?

For my budget and the features I'm chasing, the SC-LX56 seems like the best fit, but it's still a bit more expensive than the Denon 3313. And it doesn't have a phono input, but that could be solved.
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post #7 of 24 Old 01-28-2013, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Bought a pair of 683s today! 2-3 weeks to deliver. Excited. biggrin.gif

Now thinking of selling the HTM-61 and buying a CMC-2. Decisions, decisions.

Still unsure about the receiver.
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post #8 of 24 Old 01-28-2013, 12:04 PM
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The 4520 is much better than the others listed. If you can get it at similar price, I would get it.

Of the 3 you listed, the main difference between the denon and the others is the denon will do subwoofer equilization. It may not be needed in your setup.
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post #9 of 24 Old 01-28-2013, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
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The 4520 is more than double the price of the 3313, and aside from 2 extra channels (that I won't use) and a few more watts of power, can't really understand the difference.
Would be cheaper to get a 3313 + Emotiva XPA-3 or 5, for instance...
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post #10 of 24 Old 02-04-2013, 01:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, 683s delivered early! Managed to put them in place this saturday, before coming down with the flu. rolleyes.gif

Didn't manage to connect the 685s as surrounds, need to go buy cables.

SQ improvement feeling is kind of awkward, wouldn't say it has improved, I think a better description is that now I have something that was simply not there, it's like the 685s were missing the bottom half of the speaker.

Next steps TBD after plugging in the surrounds, and having proper listening tests.
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post #11 of 24 Old 04-07-2013, 02:05 PM - Thread Starter
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2 questions:

- Is replacing the HTM61 with a CMC2 advisable, given it'll be paired with 683s?
- Denon AVR-4520 vs Pioneer SC-LX86?
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post #12 of 24 Old 04-07-2013, 03:22 PM
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Many owners here on AVS like the combo of the CMC2 with their 683s. However, another 685 would probably make the best absolute match. For most, this is not an option as you would need sufficient space to have a vertical center. I highly recommend this option if you can make it work. I have added a link below with measurements showing the excellent match of the 685 as center with the 683s.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/bw-683-surround-speaker-system-measurements

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post #13 of 24 Old 04-08-2013, 03:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by postrokfan View Post

Many owners here on AVS like the combo of the CMC2 with their 683s. However, another 685 would probably make the best absolute match. For most, this is not an option as you would need sufficient space to have a vertical center. I highly recommend this option if you can make it work. I have added a link below with measurements showing the excellent match of the 685 as center with the 683s.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/bw-683-surround-speaker-system-measurements

Can't do that... Actually, I currently have the TV on top of the HTM61, which is probably not ideal (although I don't notice degradation in sound quality). As the CMC2 isn't as deep in size, I hope to be able to place it in front of the TV, not below.
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post #14 of 24 Old 04-08-2013, 03:25 AM - Thread Starter
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One more doubt, actually, between changing center channel speaker and changing AV receiver, which will give me a bigger boost in SQ? Receiver, right?
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post #15 of 24 Old 04-08-2013, 06:46 PM
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No, speaker. It's more than just a model and specs and brand matching. It needs to be optimally placed and calibrated.

Also you dismissed the 4520 in preference for the 3313 plus Emo when the former has better Audyssey version which in all likelihood gives better SQ than adding power amps.

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #16 of 24 Old 04-08-2013, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nervokid View Post

Can't do that... Actually, I currently have the TV on top of the HTM61, which is probably not ideal (although I don't notice degradation in sound quality). As the CMC2 isn't as deep in size, I hope to be able to place it in front of the TV, not below.

The CMC2 would be a good choice then. Why exactly are you dissatisfied with the HTM61?

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post #17 of 24 Old 04-09-2013, 03:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

No, speaker. It's more than just a model and specs and brand matching. It needs to be optimally placed and calibrated.

Also you dismissed the 4520 in preference for the 3313 plus Emo when the former has better Audyssey version which in all likelihood gives better SQ than adding power amps.

Thanks for your reply.
At the time of the start of the thread, yeah, the 4520 was way over my budget (twice the price of 3313+Emo). Since then I've decided it's worth saving a little more to get the right equipment. Just not sure what the right equipment is yet.
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post #18 of 24 Old 04-09-2013, 03:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by postrokfan View Post

The CMC2 would be a good choice then. Why exactly are you dissatisfied with the HTM61?

Mainly dialogue, it's hard to understand what people are saying sometimes, and it makes me mad to switch to direct sound from TV (which isn't great) and understand what they're saying more clearly. It improves a little depending where on the couch I sit, but not that much. Also, sometimes it sounds too ... high? shrill? don't know the exact word, but it's especially noticeable with sibilants. Tried to tone this down with my receiver (Sony DG-820) , no big results.
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post #19 of 24 Old 04-09-2013, 09:33 AM
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I have CM9 HT 5.1 setup and they are just phenomenal. On the other hand I played around with different amps. I originally started with Pioneer SC 65, great amp with lot of juice but could not stand the super clean sound of it (to me they sounded emotion less and no air/open sound stage, great for movies). Then I switched to Marantz AV 7701 and 7055. It added the emotion and air back in the sound; B&W CM9s were back in the sweet spot again. And then my dealer called me and said he wants me to try out the Denon 4520 (off course a great deal, $1625). I took it home and set it up; WOOO I was just blown away by the SQ, I was hearing very fine details in sound that I didn't hear before or were not present before. All the amps mentioned above have lot of juice but different sounds (Please note above are MY preferences in sound).

All I can say is that you can't go wrong with Denon 4520ci.
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post #20 of 24 Old 04-09-2013, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by phalen302 View Post

I have CM9 HT 5.1 setup and they are just phenomenal. On the other hand I played around with different amps. I originally started with Pioneer SC 65, great amp with lot of juice but could not stand the super clean sound of it (to me they sounded emotion less and no air/open sound stage, great for movies). Then I switched to Marantz AV 7701 and 7055. It added the emotion and air back in the sound; B&W CM9s were back in the sweet spot again. And then my dealer called me and said he wants me to try out the Denon 4520 (off course a great deal, $1625). I took it home and set it up; WOOO I was just blown away by the SQ, I was hearing very fine details in sound that I didn't hear before or were not present before. All the amps mentioned above have lot of juice but different sounds (Please note above are MY preferences in sound).

All I can say is that you can't go wrong with Denon 4520ci.

I have owned the Denon 4510 and 4511 and now a Pioneer 1522. IMO the 1522 is better in every way. I can't believe there is that much improvement with the 4520.
My experience was reverse of yours. The Denon to me was like your SC65 and the 1522 is like you describe the 4520.
I would think the processing is what you are hearing in a better way and not the amp.
I have heard CM's with Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, and Marantz. To me the always sounded like you describe using the SC65.
We all hear differently.
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post #21 of 24 Old 04-09-2013, 11:41 AM
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I have owned the Denon 4510 and 4511 and now a Pioneer 1522. .

I am not sure if Denon ever produced 4510 or 4511. I am assuming you are referring to 4311 and 4520. You are right, sound preference is very subjective. Pio makes great amps, and so does the Denon.
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post #22 of 24 Old 04-09-2013, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phalen302 View Post

I am not sure if Denon ever produced 4510 or 4511. I am assuming you are referring to 4311 and 4520. You are right, sound preference is very subjective. Pio makes great amps, and so does the Denon.

Had a senior moment. It was 4310 and a 4311.
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post #23 of 24 Old 04-09-2013, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nervokid View Post

Mainly dialogue, it's hard to understand what people are saying sometimes, and it makes me mad to switch to direct sound from TV (which isn't great) and understand what they're saying more clearly. It improves a little depending where on the couch I sit, but not that much. Also, sometimes it sounds too ... high? shrill? don't know the exact word, but it's especially noticeable with sibilants. Tried to tone this down with my receiver (Sony DG-820) , no big results.

In that case, it would seem a speaker change would be in order. I highly doubt changing AVRs will make a huge difference. Although, the different calibration software packages probably have an effect such as Audyssey vs YPAO or MCACC or EZset.

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post #24 of 24 Old 04-10-2013, 01:20 AM
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Poor dialogue comprehension is a fairly common complaint here. It often helps to:
1. put the speaker out of the TV cabinet, so it's not enclosed;
2. point the speaker directly at the ears, tilting it upwards if needed
3. raise the centre channel volume by a little, and/or
4. use any dialogue enhancement feature on the AVR if available.

The Sony AVRs have poor EQ compared to the other brands but still try the above first.

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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