Need some opinions on upgrading my receiver. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 9 Old 01-25-2013, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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I currently own the Denon 791. I'm running a 5.1 system with Klipsch RF52ii's, RC52ii, and RB51ii's, with RW-12D sub. I'm very happy with the receiver and havent had any problems with it. I can turn volume up to 0 - +5 and still have room to go. I want a lil more volume. Will I get it if I upgrade my receiver or do I need to jump up to the 62 or 82 series Klipsches? My speakers dont clip at all when its in the + range volume wise but dont like to go beyond 0 because it seems the receiver is pretty much outta room. I'm looking at the Denon 3313. It has 35 more watts per channel. Bigger speakers or more watts? Dont want to get into external amps.

Denon 3312
Klipsch RF-7II's, RC-64II, RS-62II's
SVS SB13 Ultra
Sony BDP-S790, PS3
Panamax 5300PM
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post #2 of 9 Old 01-25-2013, 11:42 AM
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Since you don't have preouts for the front channels there is no option to use an external amplifier.

Your receiver probably only has about 50 REAL watts per channel with all channels driven. The 3313 does not have enough more to be of much use; the difference would be trivial.

The solution, IMO, would be to get and Emotiva XPA-3 amplifier, which will give you 200 REAL watts per channel for the front 3 channels, and find a receiver that has preouts for the front 3 channels and buy it..
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post #3 of 9 Old 01-25-2013, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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I knew it didnt have preouts for an amp. If I do go to a bigger receiver I dont want external amps either is what I meant. I'm just curious how much more volume I would get if I step into the 3313. Would it be worth it?

Denon 3312
Klipsch RF-7II's, RC-64II, RS-62II's
SVS SB13 Ultra
Sony BDP-S790, PS3
Panamax 5300PM
Samsung UN60F7100 3D LED
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post #4 of 9 Old 01-25-2013, 11:54 AM
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The 3313 would not make any significant difference.

The problem is that receivers tell you they have all this power, based on the 2-channel rating, but for 5 or 7 channels...forget it. It ain't there.

The power supply can't deliver that much total power.

REAL power amplifiers have power supplies that are 10 times the size of what almost ANY receiver has. HT receivers don't have no balls because of that.

The only HT receiver with a serious power supply are the ones made by Cambridge; they actually TELL YOU how much power they will deliver into 5 or seven channels. None of the others do.

To get serious and get some real power, get a Cambridge 651R; that will kick some ___.

IT actually puts out 100 watts RMS to every channel with all 7 channels driven. It has a power supply 4 times the size of the 3313.
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post #5 of 9 Old 01-25-2013, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Thats exactly what I didnt want to hear but kinda thought the same thing. Thanks for the suggestion.

Denon 3312
Klipsch RF-7II's, RC-64II, RS-62II's
SVS SB13 Ultra
Sony BDP-S790, PS3
Panamax 5300PM
Samsung UN60F7100 3D LED
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post #6 of 9 Old 01-28-2013, 04:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cchunter View Post

Thats exactly what I didnt want to hear but kinda thought the same thing. Thanks for the suggestion.

Wouldn't recommend getting the cambridge if you want to play "louder". It will only allow you to play 3db louder.

HT Labs Measurements for the 3313

Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 122.9 watts
1% distortion at 143.3 watts

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 82.9 watts
1% distortion at 103.0 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 79.5 watts
1% distortion at 96.8 watts



Measurements for the 1913 (Not sure if they changed much since the 1911/791)

Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 102.3 watts
1% distortion at 117.7 watts

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 70.5 watts
1% distortion at 81.7 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 52.7 watts
1% distortion at 68.7 watts


With 7 channels driven into an 8ohm load the difference is only about 27 watts. You would need at least 100 watts to get 3db louder as for every 3db increase requires double the power. (If I'm incorrect please correct me!) Also the RF52s have a pretty high sensitivity so they don't need much power to go loud. Seeing that you are going all the way to 0 and even higher maybe getting speakers that could put out more spl might be a better upgrade path? Maybe something from JTR?
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post #7 of 9 Old 01-28-2013, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cchunter View Post

I currently own the Denon 791. I'm running a 5.1 system with Klipsch RF52ii's, RC52ii, and RB51ii's, with RW-12D sub. I'm very happy with the receiver and havent had any problems with it. I can turn volume up to 0 - +5 and still have room to go. I want a lil more volume.

So rotate the volume control clockwise some more. Does anything bad happen?
Quote:
Will I get it if I upgrade my receiver or do I need to jump up to the 62 or 82 series Klipsches? My speakers dont clip at all when its in the + range volume wise but dont like to go beyond 0 because it seems the receiver is pretty much outta room.

In the larger scheme of things it seems poorly advised to replace a ca. $500 AVR with a good feature set over volume control angst/funk.

You have a 90 wpc AVR, and making your system play twice as loud by upping the power would require a power amp with 10 times the power - 900 wpc. If you actually turned that amp up all the way (unlikely because of your mental problems with your volume control) you'd probably fry the speakers forthwith.

Your Kilipsch RF52II speakers are speced at 96dB @ 2.83V / 1m which is near the top of the range of home speakers. They can take 400 watts peak which corresponds to 112 dB SPL which is up in the ear-damage range.
Quote:
I'm looking at the Denon 3313. It has 35 more watts per channel. Bigger speakers or more watts? Dont want to get into external amps.


I frankly don't see any reliable evidence that you have any problem other than lack of willingness to rotate your volume control further.

If you brought in some SPL meter readings saying that you were actually getting levels of so many SPL. I'd be a lot less skeptical.

Furthermore, you appear to be talking about an AVR upgrade that involves a 1.4 dB change in maximum SPL which is in the range of "barely audible in actual use".

You can probably recalibrate your volume control by making some internal adjustments to your AVR.

I also question the wisdom of loud for the sake of loud. Is it possible that your system doesn't sound very good because of adjustments or room acoustics and this headlong rush into ill-advised upgrades isn't just a band-aid?
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post #8 of 9 Old 01-29-2013, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

So rotate the volume control clockwise some more. Does anything bad happen?
In the larger scheme of things it seems poorly advised to replace a ca. $500 AVR with a good feature set over volume control angst/funk.

You have a 90 wpc AVR, and making your system play twice as loud by upping the power would require a power amp with 10 times the power - 900 wpc. If you actually turned that amp up all the way (unlikely because of your mental problems with your volume control) you'd probably fry the speakers forthwith.

Your Kilipsch RF52II speakers are speced at 96dB @ 2.83V / 1m which is near the top of the range of home speakers. They can take 400 watts peak which corresponds to 112 dB SPL which is up in the ear-damage range.
I frankly don't see any reliable evidence that you have any problem other than lack of willingness to rotate your volume control further.

If you brought in some SPL meter readings saying that you were actually getting levels of so many SPL. I'd be a lot less skeptical.

Furthermore, you appear to be talking about an AVR upgrade that involves a 1.4 dB change in maximum SPL which is in the range of "barely audible in actual use".

You can probably recalibrate your volume control by making some internal adjustments to your AVR.

I also question the wisdom of loud for the sake of loud. Is it possible that your system doesn't sound very good because of adjustments or room acoustics and this headlong rush into ill-advised upgrades isn't just a band-aid?

My system sounds awesome and am happy with everything in it. Myself along with 99.9% of others always have that " what if I did this? " syndrome. We all also have that upgrade bug to see how much better we can improve our current systems. Believe me I dont have that lack of turning the volume up lmao. Thanks for putting things into perspective for me though. Now I might go another week without thinking I need bigger speakers or more watts wink.gif

Denon 3312
Klipsch RF-7II's, RC-64II, RS-62II's
SVS SB13 Ultra
Sony BDP-S790, PS3
Panamax 5300PM
Samsung UN60F7100 3D LED
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post #9 of 9 Old 01-29-2013, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Wouldn't recommend getting the cambridge if you want to play "louder". It will only allow you to play 3db louder.

HT Labs Measurements for the 3313

Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 122.9 watts
1% distortion at 143.3 watts

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 82.9 watts
1% distortion at 103.0 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 79.5 watts
1% distortion at 96.8 watts



Measurements for the 1913 (Not sure if they changed much since the 1911/791)

Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 102.3 watts
1% distortion at 117.7 watts

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 70.5 watts
1% distortion at 81.7 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 52.7 watts
1% distortion at 68.7 watts


With 7 channels driven into an 8ohm load the difference is only about 27 watts. You would need at least 100 watts to get 3db louder as for every 3db increase requires double the power. (If I'm incorrect please correct me!) Also the RF52s have a pretty high sensitivity so they don't need much power to go loud. Seeing that you are going all the way to 0 and even higher maybe getting speakers that could put out more spl might be a better upgrade path? Maybe something from JTR?
Thanks pokekevin for the info on the measurements!

Denon 3312
Klipsch RF-7II's, RC-64II, RS-62II's
SVS SB13 Ultra
Sony BDP-S790, PS3
Panamax 5300PM
Samsung UN60F7100 3D LED
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