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post #1 of 16 Old 02-07-2013, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a new Denon 2113CI.

I'm in the process of building a full music and home theater system. However, at the moment I am strictly running it as two-channel, being that I only have two speakers.

Therefore, is there any reason to run Audyssey??? In fact, CAN I even run it without a sub, surrounds and a center?

I've been through the FAQ sections here about such, but everything revolved around full multi-channel HT setups. I never noticed anything about basic two-channel options. Maybe I missed it, but the lack of any information leads me to believe that it's not something one does with just two-speakers.

Thank you.
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post #2 of 16 Old 02-07-2013, 03:48 PM
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Audyssey will work for whatever speakers you have. Just do it.

Heck, with just two speakers it should be very quick and easy.

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post #3 of 16 Old 02-07-2013, 03:49 PM
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Audyssey works on 2.0 and higher setups. smile.gif

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1334369/the-official-denon-avr-xx12-model-owners-thread#user_A

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post #4 of 16 Old 02-07-2013, 04:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, guys! I just ran it and it seems to have a nice effect on a few movies I just played through. Seems like much nicer sound at the lower levels, thanks to Dynamic EQ.

But it'll take a little testing on music. It sounded more dull and compressed than is acceptable on a couple songs I played through AirPlay. That was on the "DIRECT" setting that showed up on the iPhone. When I changed that to "STEREO" it improved the sound noticeably. However, I can't possibly tell whether that is any better or different than the same songs sounded before I ran Audyssey.

To be honest, I don't at all understand the relationship between what I have now saved as the Audyssey settings, and all the random sound modes which appear in the iPhone app. In fact, those same sound modes don't even seem accessible through the Denon GUI with the AVR remote. Am I missing something altogether there...?
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post #5 of 16 Old 02-07-2013, 05:04 PM
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You only have 2 speakers connected so there's no reason for the AVR to display the multi channel surround modes.

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post #6 of 16 Old 02-07-2013, 05:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

You only have 2 speakers connected so there's no reason for the AVR to display the multi channel surround modes.

Interesting. Thanks. So, I guess the "smart phone" app isn't as smart as the AVR? ;-) If I were to plug in the additional speakers and sub, I would then be presented with those other sound field options?
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post #7 of 16 Old 02-07-2013, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Nash View Post

Interesting. Thanks. So, I guess the "smart phone" app isn't as smart as the AVR? ;-) If I were to plug in the additional speakers and sub, I would then be presented with those other sound field options?

yep. Of course, Audyssey is essentially independent of the sound modes you are looking at or for. It EQs the speakers to account for effects of the room. It doesn't know or care if you use say Dolby PLII, and Dolby PLII doesn't care, or know, if Audyssey is installed on the receiver, has been run, or is on or off. There are Audyssey modes that would not be present if the receiver did not have Audyssey. Make sure your receiver has not defaulted to have Dynamic Volume on, and check out offsets for DynamicEQ (if it's on) when playing music. Check out the Audyssey thread, and the FAQ and setup guide often linked there for tons of info.
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post #8 of 16 Old 02-08-2013, 03:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Nash View Post

Interesting. Thanks. So, I guess the "smart phone" app isn't as smart as the AVR? ;-) If I were to plug in the additional speakers and sub, I would then be presented with those other sound field options?

Yup. Also note that Audyssey is disabled when using the DIRECT mode which is why it's generally not recommended for use. Review the Audyssey 101/FAQ Guide linked in my sig for a better understanding of Audyssey.

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post #9 of 16 Old 02-08-2013, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks! Trust me, I've been, and still am pouring through all the great FAQ sections which you have all spent so much time generously creating.
However, sometimes it's still tough to coordinate my questions with what I find in those comprehensive lists.
So much of the discussion still seems to revolve around multi-speaker HT.

After running Audyssey, it seems quite clear that my TV watching has improved, even with just my two-speakers.
However, I'm confused about music. I can understand the value and my ears seem to be able to detect a clear improvement with Dynamic EQ for stereo music. However, it seems like the volumes are a little louder WITH Dynamic Volume turned ON. Like it's boosting the volume. But my understanding is that it's only supposed to modulate the abrupt highs (like for commercials) so my impression would be that I should set Dyn Vol to OFF for all my music. Can someone help explain why I'm hearing such dramatic differences with stereo music?
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post #10 of 16 Old 02-08-2013, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Nash View Post

so my impression would be that I should set Dyn Vol to OFF for all my music.

Definately, you will ruin the dynamics of your music if you have it turned on. I may even go as far as to say that you should turn off Dynamic EQ altogether for music, but it somewhat depends on the genre your listening to. For me it sounds okay with rock but doesn't sound very good with movie scores or orchestra music.
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post #11 of 16 Old 02-08-2013, 10:31 AM
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Dynamic volume is very useful, but it certainly removes dynamics from anything you're listening to. Set to midnight mode there's hardly any difference in volume between speech and explosions.

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post #12 of 16 Old 02-08-2013, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JD in NJ View Post

Dynamic volume is very useful, but it certainly removes dynamics from anything you're listening to. Set to midnight mode there's hardly any difference in volume between speech and explosions.

Indeed. Last night I had it set at "medium" while watching the classic car chase and ensuing gun battle in Ronin. I purposely kept the overall volume quite low to see how it worked. There was quite a noticeable lack of extension where I knew there should be loud spikes, but overall it was fairly impressive (likely mostly due to Dynamic EQ being on) because I could, indeed, here a ton of subtle noises in the track. There's no way I would have been able to hear those previously, with the master volume as low as I had it. Pretty cool. I just need to keep playing with the way it's set up for music, though. That's going to be more of a moving target, I'm afraid.
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post #13 of 16 Old 02-08-2013, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Nash View Post

Thanks! Trust me, I've been, and still am pouring through all the great FAQ sections which you have all spent so much time generously creating.
However, sometimes it's still tough to coordinate my questions with what I find in those comprehensive lists.
So much of the discussion still seems to revolve around multi-speaker HT.

After running Audyssey, it seems quite clear that my TV watching has improved, even with just my two-speakers.
However, I'm confused about music. I can understand the value and my ears seem to be able to detect a clear improvement with Dynamic EQ for stereo music. However, it seems like the volumes are a little louder WITH Dynamic Volume turned ON. Like it's boosting the volume. But my understanding is that it's only supposed to modulate the abrupt highs (like for commercials) so my impression would be that I should set Dyn Vol to OFF for all my music. Can someone help explain why I'm hearing such dramatic differences with stereo music?

Both dynamic volume and dynamic EQ are "scaled" to function properly with material recorded at movie reference. In a nutshell, because of the way movies are mixed (unless they've been remastered for home use) if a sound is recorded on the disk at -20 dBFS, I KNOW that in the mixing stage, they heard that sound at 85 dB from the relevant speaker. Very important, especially when applying the AUdyssey equivalent of the fletcher munson curves, bcasuse how much correction is needed depends on how loud the sound was when heard by the mixer and how loud it is with our reduced voluume level.

Music has no standards. So sound encoded at -20 dB on a classical or jazz record mibht have been 75 dB when the mastering engineer heard it. It shifts the pivot points both for dynamic eQ and Dynamic volume, because the expected initial volumes are different. If you happen to only listen to music mastered during the loudness wars time period, there is almost certainly no portion of the disc except fade outs or fade ins that are as low as 20 dBFS. Not uncommon for all the sound to exist between 0dBFS (loud as possible) and -6 dBFS (2 notches lower) on average. At movie reference that would make everything constantly 99-105 dB in the mastering suite, and it's very unlikely they monitored that loud. More like 85 or 90 for averages, likely. Much music is encoded "louder" on disc than movies, which counterintutively means that the mixer/mastering engineer had a LOWER effective "reference level" when playing back, so that that barrage of near-max noise doesn't make him unable to hear the cymbals on the next album he's mastering that day. That's why Audyssey implemented offsets for the dynamic EQ and Dynamic volume processes. My receiver predates those, so I use a separate output to play music and reduced the level for that receiver input by 10 dB to lessen the effect of DynEQ and DynVol on music. Works well. But because there is no standard, there's no one-offset-perfectly-fits-all-music number you can use. I like the fuller bass of DynEQ, but find bloated bass very unattractive, so I keep my source levels low enough that I'm probably undercorrecting much of the time. That's okay with me. Better is better, I don't have to get "perfect". Plus, the whole "reference" concept is a little less applicable to music, where you know you are mixing and mastering for a wide variety of playback from crappy in-ears to cars to boomboxes to finely tuned stereos. "Portability" becomes important - your music needs to work on every playback device reasonably well, even if it could be more perfect if you had a known playback setting.

Plus after somebody spends weeks mixing a complex pop or rock record, they send it off to a different person who uses different equipment to "master" it so that it no longer sounds exactly like the mixer's hard work anyway. Who's vision do you want to recreate? It starts to get murky . . .
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post #14 of 16 Old 02-08-2013, 01:13 PM
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Note that the "reference volume" and "reference level offsets" only apply to Dyn EQ.

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post #15 of 16 Old 02-08-2013, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, guys. And thanks, JHAz for that comprehensive breakdown of the mixing processes.
I'm enjoying the fact that I at least invested in some (I think) very good speakers. In fact, that investment is what temporarily halted the rest of the HT build. I also knew that the Denon would provide some of the cleanest, nicest power for the money. Audyssey is fun to play with, and even though I'm not entirely sure where I'm headed with all the settings, I think I'm closer to being very happy with what I'm getting than before I ran the setup.

Tonight will be a good test when we watch a few recorded shows, and let out the volume a little to see how things sound!
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post #16 of 16 Old 02-08-2013, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Nash View Post

Thanks, guys. And thanks, JHAz for that comprehensive breakdown of the mixing processes.
I'm enjoying the fact that I at least invested in some (I think) very good speakers. In fact, that investment is what temporarily halted the rest of the HT build. I also knew that the Denon would provide some of the cleanest, nicest power for the money. Audyssey is fun to play with, and even though I'm not entirely sure where I'm headed with all the settings, I think I'm closer to being very happy with what I'm getting than before I ran the setup.

Tonight will be a good test when we watch a few recorded shows, and let out the volume a little to see how things sound!

you are most welcome. speakers are such a big deal. as you assess Ausyssey I think it's worth checking out the "audyssey flat" setting available on Denons (there's a way to do it with Onkyo and Integra products too but I can't remember it . . . Basically it eliminates a slight high frequency rolloff in the "normal" Audyssey EQ curve. FWIW, I really preferred the flat setting for a while with music then ended up happy with the Audyssey curve for everything. IMO for movies the normal Audyssey curve tens to work well at least in part because it kinda corrects for the X Curve used in movie mixing stages (an even bigger high end rolloff, and when the monitoring system has reduced highs, mixers will push treble intensive sounds a little louder, which may make them too much when played back flat at home.)
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