Not sure what receiver is good enough.... possible separates? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 103 Old 02-28-2013, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Will more resolution make a flat line look anything other than flat?
Yes, in the case of an apparently flat line.

 

Here's a graph of the Emotiva XPA-2 from Audioholics. It looks real flat to me from 20Hz to 20kHz... you saying this one is no use either?

 

 

And here's a couple from Stereophile:

 

 

 

The one thing they all seem to have in common, to me, is that they show a remarkably flat FR from 20Hz-20kHz.  Am I missing something?

 

BTW, if you were referring to me as someone with a sales/marketing background, you have the wrong guy. I have worked all my life in Advertising and never, even briefly, in either sales or marketing.

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post #92 of 103 Old 02-28-2013, 02:42 PM
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Will more resolution make a flat line look anything other than flat?

Components these days are a non-issue in amplifiers. Even cheap amps of the type we use in HT are made with components whose key parameters put them well below the threshold of audibility. To suggest that one component will be 'better' than another makes you seem rooted in the past, when it was true. Once a component has sufficient quality that its distortion thresholds are below the level of human audibility, no further 'improvement' can be possible 0.05% and 0.01% may make one thing appear 'better' than he other but it's totally irrelevant if it is physically impossible to hear a difference.

Likewise, QC isn’t an issue. We are obviously discussing amps that are in working order, not broken amps.

Amps are amps these days. Welcome that fact and save some $$$.

So now you've not only changed the argument, you've also managed to put words in my mouth. Nice work! rolleyes.gif

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post #93 of 103 Old 02-28-2013, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Here's a graph of the Emotiva XPA-2 from Audioholics. It looks real flat to me from 20Hz to 20kHz... you saying this one is no use either?




And here's a couple from Stereophile:







The one thing they all seem to have in common, to me, is that they show a remarkably flat FR from 20Hz-20kHz.  Am I missing something?

BTW, if you were referring to me as someone with a sales/marketing background, you have the wrong guy. I have worked all my life in Advertising and never, even briefly, in either sales or marketing.

In all of my use of an Audio Precision over the last 17 years, I can't think of a time I ever had the scale bigger than -2 to +2 dB. At that range, the curves are, well, curves, ie, not flat.

And I was the one who referred to your sales/marketing background. OK, it's advertising. To me, that's all the same. Just like to you, "flat" means, well, whatever you want it to mean.

The issue here, as Greg Lee seems to be getting at, is that plots not zoomed in to a range of +/1dB, or +/-2 dB, are worthless.

Furthermore, plots that show the freq resp into a simple 8 Ohm or 6 Ohm load are worthless.

Give me plots with a real speaker load, and then we're back where I started: At what point are the freq resp variations "neglibible" or "inaudible?"

It might be a non-issue to you, Keith, but then again you don't design mass quantity consumer A/V electronics, do you? You don't have to review CPK data taken from thousands of units manufactured in a factory in China, do you? You don't get to see that in worst case scenarios, some of those amps, when measured with a more "real" load, might just have variations that approach audibility.

It appears to me you've taken a religious position on the "all amps sound the same" idea, and while it may surprise you to know that I *generally* fall in that same camp, I'm aware of enough issues to know that the "all" part of that statement needs some qualifiers...

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post #94 of 103 Old 02-28-2013, 02:59 PM
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What's more, since these days a good number of people (myself included) use AVRs, we have to consider the freq resp of the D/A section as well.

Don't tell me, those are "flat" too, right?

Do some Monte Carlo simulations of the lowpass filter on the DAC output, or better yet look at the data of thousands of units measured in a factory, and you'll see that there is some variation from one unit to the next.

Depending on the DAC itself, the output topology, the filter topology, and the component tolerances of the Rs and Cs in the filter, we can get outliers that may have a dB of variation in freq resp.

Is that audible? Might be, in controlled listening tests. In fact, I've worked on DAC products where just the component tolerances in the output filter could lead to freq resp variations that could be audible (although admittedly just barely audible) in worst case scenarios. And depending on how we set up the quality control testing in the factory (do we test freq resp on every single unit or do we just test every 10th unit, or maybe just one every day?), those units might just get through production and into a customer's system.




Now, if you want to ask, is it important, given that speakers and rooms will have orders of magnitude more variances than DACs or amps, then, yeah, I'm totally in your camp that it's silly to go looking for a DAC and/or amp with a particular sound and that efforts should be put into speakers, room acoustics, and the like.

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post #95 of 103 Old 02-28-2013, 04:51 PM
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Now, if you want to ask, is it important, given that speakers and rooms will have orders of magnitude more variances than DACs or amps, then, yeah, I'm totally in your camp that it's silly to go looking for a DAC and/or amp with a particular sound and that efforts should be put into speakers, room acoustics, and the like.

 

I think we are in basic agreement really. I probably should have said something like "acceptably flat" rather than "flat". My position is essentially similar to yours: room and speakers are the most significant contributors/detractors to SQ by a huge order of magnitude and modern SS amps, working within their design parameters and not clipping are all essentially the same wrt to SQ. What makes sense therefore, in the search for the best SQ possible, is to concentrate on the room and the speakers, and that is where money is best spent. BYAKT :)

 

(BTW, sales, marketing and advertising are three entirely separate disciplines ;)  Marketing comes first and is a given by the time it gets to the advertising people - then sales comes last in the process.)

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post #96 of 103 Old 03-01-2013, 03:22 PM
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As an A/V electronics consumer, I am in total agreement with your philosophy Keith.

As an A/V electronics designer, I felt it necessary to point out that there is a grey area, albeit a small one, in the whole 'all sound the same' argument. That simple term "acceptably flat" leads to all sorts of issues when you really analyze it from a design and manufacturing standpoint. But from a customer's point of view, yeah, it's pretty much a non-issue.

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post #97 of 103 Old 03-01-2013, 03:24 PM
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Oh, and thanks for the info on sales/marketing/advertising. I've worked with marketing people, and occasionally with sales people, but never with advertising people.

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post #98 of 103 Old 03-02-2013, 02:51 AM
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As an A/V electronics consumer, I am in total agreement with your philosophy Keith.

As an A/V electronics designer, I felt it necessary to point out that there is a grey area, albeit a small one, in the whole 'all sound the same' argument. That simple term "acceptably flat" leads to all sorts of issues when you really analyze it from a design and manufacturing standpoint. But from a customer's point of view, yeah, it's pretty much a non-issue.

 

It's good to discuss it with you, and also to have contributions here on AVS from industry professionals. I am a big believer in properly conducted ABX tests and the results are invariably 'we can't hear any differences' and so I guess that where I was really coming from is that if I can't hear any differences, then, well, they all sound the same :)  But I take your point - I am reassured that designers of the gear go the extra step.  

 

What I find very frustrating is the number of times I see on AVS people fretting over whether this amp or that amp will lead to the sonic nirvana they seek, while at the same time, they ignore totally the impact of the room. I agree that treatments etc can be difficult for many people, who are trying to combine a living space with a listening space, but there is still a lot one can do via speaker placement, sub placement, chair placement, general furnishings, drapes etc etc, but so often it all goes ignored and the question we see time and time again is "will this amp improve the SQ of my system or should I go for this one?" - and the often-seen response is "well I have [Brand X] and it made a night and day difference compared with my old [Brand Y]" and I just know that is not very likely to be the case, if Brand X was a decent modern SS amp working within spec and not clipping.

 

I have no dog in the fight. I am not involved in AV professionally in any way and my own dedicated HT room is heavily treated and powered by nice-and-inexpensive Emotiva amps. The amps will stay for ever, or until they break beyond repair, and will never be 'upgraded' simply because I believe there is no need to. The only scenario I can see for replacing them would be if I moved to a much larger space and/or changed my speakers to a far less efficient design and this needed more power (they are M&K S150s/SS150 Tripoles and reasonably efficient) - neither of which is likely in the foreseeable. 

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post #99 of 103 Old 03-02-2013, 02:51 AM
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Oh, and thanks for the info on sales/marketing/advertising. I've worked with marketing people, and occasionally with sales people, but never with advertising people.

The advertising people are the most fun ;)

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post #100 of 103 Old 03-02-2013, 03:08 AM
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The advertising people are the most fun wink.gif

You misspelled 'inebriated'.

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post #101 of 103 Old 03-02-2013, 03:14 AM
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post #102 of 103 Old 03-02-2013, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It's good to discuss it with you, and also to have contributions here on AVS from industry professionals. I am a big believer in properly conducted ABX tests and the results are invariably 'we can't hear any differences' and so I guess that where I was really coming from is that if I can't hear any differences, then, well, they all sound the same smile.gif  But I take your point - I am reassured that designers of the gear go the extra step.  

What I find very frustrating is the number of times I see on AVS people fretting over whether this amp or that amp will lead to the sonic nirvana they seek, while at the same time, they ignore totally the impact of the room. I agree that treatments etc can be difficult for many people, who are trying to combine a living space with a listening space, but there is still a lot one can do via speaker placement, sub placement, chair placement, general furnishings, drapes etc etc, but so often it all goes ignored and the question we see time and time again is "will this amp improve the SQ of my system or should I go for this one?" - and the often-seen response is "well I have [Brand X] and it made a night and day difference compared with my old [Brand Y]" and I just know that is not very likely to be the case, if Brand X was a decent modern SS amp working within spec and not clipping.

I have no dog in the fight. I am not involved in AV professionally in any way and my own dedicated HT room is heavily treated and powered by nice-and-inexpensive Emotiva amps. The amps will stay for ever, or until they break beyond repair, and will never be 'upgraded' simply because I believe there is no need to. The only scenario I can see for replacing them would be if I moved to a much larger space and/or changed my speakers to a far less efficient design and this needed more power (they are M&K S150s/SS150 Tripoles and reasonably efficient) - neither of which is likely in the foreseeable. 

Total agreement here.

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post #103 of 103 Old 03-02-2013, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The advertising people are the most fun wink.gif

That's probably why the places I've worked have always kept them away from the engineers! cool.gif

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