Not sure what receiver is good enough.... possible separates? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 103 Old 02-19-2013, 02:38 AM - Thread Starter
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I am getting ready to purchase some Yamaha NS-777 floor speakers for a home theater set up. I will be purchasing the rest of the speakers in that same class for a 5.1 surround sound soon. Right now I am concentrating on the floor speakers and a nice Amp for them. They are 6ohm speakers and I will most likely B-Amp them. What would work best for a receiver? Maybe separates? I'm not sure as this is my first home theater set up other than HTIB.
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post #2 of 103 Old 02-19-2013, 04:41 AM
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I would suggest mating Yamaha speakers to a Yamaha amp/receiver. I'm sure they were made to work well together.
Much like JBL speakers with H/K amps/receivers (same company).
But don't bother bi-amping, complete waste of time, unless you are going to active bi-amp. And that is a whole different thing.
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post #3 of 103 Old 02-19-2013, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

I would suggest mating Yamaha speakers to a Yamaha amp/receiver. I'm sure they were made to work well together.
Much like JBL speakers with H/K amps/receivers (same company).
But don't bother bi-amping, complete waste of time, unless you are going to active bi-amp. And that is a whole different thing.

My experience is that companies that make receivers, other than Harmon, don't make good speakers. There is no "magic" matching of speakers with receivers/amplifiers.
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post #4 of 103 Old 02-19-2013, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

I would suggest mating Yamaha speakers to a Yamaha amp/receiver. I'm sure they were made to work well together.
Much like JBL speakers with H/K amps/receivers (same company).
But don't bother bi-amping, complete waste of time, unless you are going to active bi-amp. And that is a whole different thing.

My experience is that companies that make receivers, other than Harmon, don't make good speakers. There is no "magic" matching of speakers with receivers/amplifiers.

 

+1. The best plan is to select the best components from the manufacturers who excel in each particular field. It is extremely unlikely that Yamaha will be able to compete with well-respected specialist speaker manufacturers. Similarly, whatever speakers one has, one needs to choose the most appropriate AVR for one's needs. For example, if electronic room correction is important to you, then Denon or Onkyo (which incorporate Audyssey) would generally be considered a better choice than Yamaha.

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post #5 of 103 Old 02-19-2013, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by SonomaComa View Post

I am getting ready to purchase some Yamaha NS-777 floor speakers for a home theater set up. I will be purchasing the rest of the speakers in that same class for a 5.1 surround sound soon. Right now I am concentrating on the floor speakers and a nice Amp for them. They are 6ohm speakers and I will most likely B-Amp them. What would work best for a receiver? Maybe separates? I'm not sure as this is my first home theater set up other than HTIB.

 

I would consider Denon or Onkyo AVRs. 'Passive' Biamping is a waste of time and wire see here for info:

 

Passive Biamping - AKA 'Fool's Biamping'

 

What is it about the Yamaha speakers that attracts you to them, over, say, any of the numerous well-respected brands?  Also, will you be using a subwoofer?

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post #6 of 103 Old 02-19-2013, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

My experience is that companies that make receivers, other than Harmon, don't make good speakers. There is no "magic" matching of speakers with receivers/amplifiers.

The op is not asking about speakers. As such I don't care what brand he might buy. If he wants Yamaha speakers, its his choice.

There is "no magic matching?"...there certainly is synergy that can come into play. Through experience, I'll match JBL speakers with HK, Parasound, Marantz before I'd ever use Onkyo, Yamaha, Denon.
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post #7 of 103 Old 02-19-2013, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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" I have heard the speakers and for a home theater set up they sound great. With 2-8" woofers, 1-5" mid-range, and a 1" tweeter they have excellent sound especially for dialog. It's nice to hear a speaker that has woofers, mid range, and a tweeter.
http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/speaker-systems/home-speaker-systems/ns-777/?mode=model
And since they do make great receivers I figured I would try and keep it all Yamaha, if that's a good idea. I was thinking of bi-amping because they are 6ohm speakers to begin with and they have two 8" woofers that may take away some power from the Mid and tweet. There is a nice picture of them in that link I posted above in case you aren't familiar with them.
But then again, what would be a good amp to power those monster towers? And no bi-amping....?
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post #8 of 103 Old 02-19-2013, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

The op is not asking about speakers. As such I don't care what brand he might buy. If he wants Yamaha speakers, its his choice.

There is "no magic matching?"...there certainly is synergy that can come into play. Through experience, I'll match JBL speakers with HK, Parasound, Marantz before I'd ever use Onkyo, Yamaha, Denon.

Synergy is one of those snake oil terms. It has no real meaning other than that the subjective impression is that it is compatible with the other equipment. I'm certain the OP could certainly find better speakers, even three way ones, from a company that specializes in speakers. There are exceptions, such as Sony which makes $27,000 high end speakers, but generally most companies building receivers don't build very good speakers.
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post #9 of 103 Old 02-19-2013, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by SonomaComa View Post

" I have heard the speakers and for a home theater set up they sound great. With 2-8" woofers, 1-5" mid-range, and a 1" tweeter they have excellent sound especially for dialog. It's nice to hear a speaker that has woofers, mid range, and a tweeter.
http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/speaker-systems/home-speaker-systems/ns-777/?mode=model
And since they do make great receivers I figured I would try and keep it all Yamaha, if that's a good idea. I was thinking of bi-amping because they are 6ohm speakers to begin with and they have two 8" woofers that may take away some power from the Mid and tweet. There is a nice picture of them in that link I posted above in case you aren't familiar with them.
But then again, what would be a good amp to power those monster towers? And no bi-amping....?

 

Will you be using a subwoofer?  I strongly recommend it for movies or you will be missing a lot of the low frequency content. Speakers with puny 8 inch 'woofers' are not going to play at 115dB at 20Hz (reference) are they? ;) A sub is purpose-designed to do one thing well: reproduce bass.

 

And if you are going to be using a subwoofer, then you don't need big towers at the front. All you need are good speakers that can play well down to your crossover point - say 80Hz. Much smaller speakers can do that very well indeed - and because the hardest thing in speaker design is to make them play the bottom few octaves, it makes the speaker very expensive to even attempt it. So getting good satellite speakers will save you money, or you will get far better speakers for a given budget. 

 

Passive biamping is just a waste of money - check the link I posted before. Biamping requires active (powered) crossovers before the speaker. If you tried to use active XOs with your speakers you would first have to remove the passive XOs inside them. Not a good idea.

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post #10 of 103 Old 02-19-2013, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

The op is not asking about speakers. As such I don't care what brand he might buy. If he wants Yamaha speakers, its his choice.

There is "no magic matching?"...there certainly is synergy that can come into play. Through experience, I'll match JBL speakers with HK, Parasound, Marantz before I'd ever use Onkyo, Yamaha, Denon.

Synergy is one of those snake oil terms. It has no real meaning other than that the subjective impression is that it is compatible with the other equipment. I'm certain the OP could certainly find better speakers, even three way ones, from a company that specializes in speakers. There are exceptions, such as Sony which makes $27,000 high end speakers, but generally most companies building receivers don't build very good speakers.

 

+1. Totally agreed. And, for HT use, they are not even the best design IMO. Towers are not really needed for HT with a sub in place. Can't really see the point of picking an AVR and then letting that influence speaker choice.

 

(Actually, Pioneer have some kickass speakers out nowadays - but again, it's another exception. Yamaha have no credibility in speakers - well maybe the NS10s for studio use - but even they are often reviled).

 

Here's a review of the Andrew Jones-designed Pioneer BS41s.  Wow - get me - quoting reviews from Stereophile! <cough>. 

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post #11 of 103 Old 02-19-2013, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Synergy is one of those snake oil terms. It has no real meaning other than that the subjective impression is that it is compatible with the other equipment. I'm certain the OP could certainly find better speakers, even three way ones, from a company that specializes in speakers. There are exceptions, such as Sony which makes $27,000 high end speakers, but generally most companies building receivers don't build very good speakers.
Says you...then you exception Sony and this guy exceptions Pioneer. I would not buy either. And there are amp/AVR brands I would never mate with my high end JBLs...cos those brands just don't cut the mustard. Talk about leaving much to be desired!
So, YES, there is a difference.
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+1. Totally agreed. And, for HT use, they are not even the best design IMO. Towers are not really needed for HT with a sub in place. Can't really see the point of picking an AVR and then letting that influence speaker choice.

(Actually, Pioneer have some kickass speakers out nowadays - but again, it's another exception. Yamaha have no credibility in speakers - well maybe the NS10s for studio use - but even they are often reviled).

Here's a review of the Andrew Jones-designed Pioneer BS41s.  Wow - get me - quoting reviews from Stereophile! . 

The only real exception, imo, is Harman, for speakers, amps, pre/pros. As for if towers are needed in a HT w/subs...I've walked into many a room that had speakers that were quite less and I could tell what I was not hearing...good mid-bass. B/C the speakers lacked anything I would call bass drivers....mid-bass or otherwise.
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post #12 of 103 Old 02-19-2013, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

Says you...then you exception Sony and this guy exceptions Pioneer. I would not buy either. And there are amp/AVR brands I would never mate with my high end JBLs...cos those brands just don't cut the mustard. Talk about leaving much to be desired!
So, YES, there is a difference.
The only real exception, imo, is Harman, for speakers, amps, pre/pros. As for if towers are needed in a HT w/subs...I've walked into many a room that had speakers that were quite less and I could tell what I was not hearing...good mid-bass. B/C the speakers lacked anything I would call bass drivers....mid-bass or otherwise.

For cheap speakers the Pioneers are good, but they are not great speakers IMHO.
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post #13 of 103 Old 02-19-2013, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

Says you...then you exception Sony and this guy exceptions Pioneer. I would not buy either. And there are amp/AVR brands I would never mate with my high end JBLs...cos those brands just don't cut the mustard. Talk about leaving much to be desired!
So, YES, there is a difference.
The only real exception, imo, is Harman, for speakers, amps, pre/pros. As for if towers are needed in a HT w/subs...I've walked into many a room that had speakers that were quite less and I could tell what I was not hearing...good mid-bass. B/C the speakers lacked anything I would call bass drivers....mid-bass or otherwise.

For cheap speakers the Pioneers are good, but they are not great speakers IMHO.

 

Yes - good for the price. But not 'good' as such.

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post #14 of 103 Old 02-19-2013, 02:02 PM
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But back to the point of this thread...if the OP wants Yamaha speakers, who are any of you to try and talk him out of those?
The subject is an AVR or separates. Personally for the speakers in question, I would not spend the money for separates. Maybe add a stereo power amp later, if he thinks its necessary. Of coarse, that means getting an AVR with pre outs for at least the L/R.

Do I think separates are better than an AVR, yes. I have a good avr, but my analog pre-amp is quite a bit better, especially for stereo playback.
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post #15 of 103 Old 02-19-2013, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I was planning on using a sub with those NS-777 towers. Never considered the Pioneers as I have heard them. But kbarnes701 suggested some higher end bookshelf speakers since I plan on using a sub. The speakers are about $900.00 a pair. The frequency response is rated at 30hz - 35khz. What bookshelf speakers for $900.00 would fit that bill and be able to reach those highs? And since I did plan on using a sub I was even thinking about the NS-555 floor speakers with the same tweeter, 5" midrange, and two 6 1/4" woofers instead of the two 8" woofers.
It's just that I have heard really good tower speakers that sound excellent with music but when it comes to HT applications the dialog in movies or even regular TV just does not sound right, to boxy. That's why I was thinking of using these 3-way speakers with a nice powerful amp to get things really boomin'. But now I'm wondering if I might get a better effect with smaller speakers and a sub. I just don't want and try and make the sub reach any of the higher octaves where smaller speakers leave off.
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post #16 of 103 Old 02-19-2013, 06:52 PM
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Don't let them talk you out of the Yamaha speakers. Given my past experience with Yamaha speakers (outdoor speakers and the built in speakers on my son's $1000 Yamaha keyboard), I would have no problem giving these a try. These would be higher on my list than other commonly recommended budget speakers (Infinity Primus, Pioneer, Polk Monitor, etc). If you end up buying them, please post a review. I get tired of the same old recommendations in this price range. smile.gif

Regarding receivers, I had exclusively bought Onkyo/Denon receivers for the past 5 or 6 years (largely based on all the praise heaped upon Audyssey in these forums), but I recently switched to Yamaha (A3010) due to reliability issues with Onkyo. I have used the pinnacle of Audyssey (XT32), and I know it's the best room correction on paper. Maybe I have lousy ears (it's hard to compete with kbarnes' GIANT ear), but I couldn't hear a difference between Audyssey and YPAO in my home theater. Frankly, I thought both did a great job.
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post #17 of 103 Old 02-19-2013, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Yea, I do like the way those Yamaha's sound. And that was on a 100 wpc sherwood receiver. I keep hearing about all of the glory stories people tell when they get a nice new powerful amp. And that was what the original question was here. What is a good powerful receiver for those 6ohm 3-way tower speakers? Sensitivity is only 88 dB/2.83 V/1 m and the Input Power (Maximum / Nominal) is 250W / 100W.
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post #18 of 103 Old 02-20-2013, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by SonomaComa View Post

Yea, I do like the way those Yamaha's sound. And that was on a 100 wpc sherwood receiver. I keep hearing about all of the glory stories people tell when they get a nice new powerful amp. And that was what the original question was here. What is a good powerful receiver for those 6ohm 3-way tower speakers? Sensitivity is only 88 dB/2.83 V/1 m and the Input Power (Maximum / Nominal) is 250W / 100W.

Besides a Yamaha AVR, you have HK, Marantz, Denon. But you want to look for one with pre outs. At least for the main L/R towers.
And that usually means the higher priced AVRs in any brand lineup. Which will also have the bigger amps onboard. Which is a catch 22 kinda thing...the cheaper AVRs with the smaller amps don't have pre outs to connect a power amp. And those are the ones most likely to need an amp.
So if you think afterwards the Yamaha speakers need more power, then you buy a bigger stereo power amp.
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post #19 of 103 Old 02-20-2013, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
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That would be a great idea too. Then someone could have all the bells & whistles with something like a Pioneer Elite and then blast it with extra power. If and when I do upgrade sometime down the road I would like it to be the speakers and not the whole entire set up.
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post #20 of 103 Old 02-20-2013, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonomaComa View Post

That would be a great idea too. Then someone could have all the bells & whistles with something like a Pioneer Elite and then blast it with extra power. If and when I do upgrade sometime down the road I would like it to be the speakers and not the whole entire set up.

Look, if you're after great audio, the most important components are the room and the speakers and how they interact with each other relative to the listening position.

Don't waste your time trying to get opinions on receiver A vs receiver B or the external amp crap. You'll get way more benefit from addressing the above.

Read the amplifier FAQ linked at the top of this section it'll give you a great idea of what you actually need.
Also go to the "audio theory set up and chat" section and do some reading on room treatments and EQ.

If I were you, I'd look for what features I need in an AVR, how much power I need for my speakers & room per the FAQ, how much I want to spend and then get the AVR that meets those criteria with the best room correction available at that price point.
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post #21 of 103 Old 02-21-2013, 01:47 AM
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Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonomaComa View Post

That would be a great idea too. Then someone could have all the bells & whistles with something like a Pioneer Elite and then blast it with extra power. If and when I do upgrade sometime down the road I would like it to be the speakers and not the whole entire set up.

Look, if you're after great audio, the most important components are the room and the speakers and how they interact with each other relative to the listening position.

Don't waste your time trying to get opinions on receiver A vs receiver B or the external amp crap. You'll get way more benefit from addressing the above.

Read the amplifier FAQ linked at the top of this section it'll give you a great idea of what you actually need.
Also go to the "audio theory set up and chat" section and do some reading on room treatments and EQ.

If I were you, I'd look for what features I need in an AVR, how much power I need for my speakers & room per the FAQ, how much I want to spend and then get the AVR that meets those criteria with the best room correction available at that price point.

 

+1 to all that.

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post #22 of 103 Old 02-24-2013, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonomaComa View Post

Yea, I do like the way those Yamaha's sound. And that was on a 100 wpc sherwood receiver. I keep hearing about all of the glory stories people tell when they get a nice new powerful amp. And that was what the original question was here. What is a good powerful receiver for those 6ohm 3-way tower speakers? Sensitivity is only 88 dB/2.83 V/1 m and the Input Power (Maximum / Nominal) is 250W / 100W.

Here is my take on this, Most amps that are not THX certified are not going to deliver their rated power. Such as a 5.1 receiver stating 100wpc, will deliver 100wpc with one channel driven, but not with all 5 channels driven. going separates is expensive. You seem to want POWER!!

so here is what I think. get a nice and maybe inexpensive AVR, 80 to 100wpc would be fine for the surrounds. Buy a separate 2 channel amp for the front mains, (lots of choices, one would be emotiva xpa-2 or even the xpa-3 with about 175wpc at 6ohm $499, $599.) Your receiver will have to have pre outs for this to work.

For the sub check out AVS sub forums. A great Sub can rock your house in Ht for under $800 delivered, I like PSA subs. (don't go to the big box store like I did for my first one) In the end you will have a killer HT home system.biggrin.gif

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post #23 of 103 Old 02-24-2013, 08:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for that info. I was just wondering about that type of set up too.
Would an AVR + AMP sound as good as separates? I was looking at some Pioneer Elite Series to see which ones have Pre outs for all channels and the price starts at $1,100 for that option. Is there any difference between AVR + Amp vs Separates as far as SQ and price?
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post #24 of 103 Old 02-24-2013, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonomaComa View Post

Thanks for that info. I was just wondering about that type of set up too.
Would an AVR + AMP sound as good as separates? I was looking at some Pioneer Elite Series to see which ones have Pre outs for all channels and the price starts at $1,100 for that option. Is there any difference between AVR + Amp vs Separates as far as SQ and price?

Well, there can be some difference. But the point becomes, how much do you want to send and is the difference in price worth it to you? Most pre/pros will cost more than a good AVR with pre outs.
Many people, including myself, use the AVR as a pre/pro. And are just fine with it, especially for movie soundtracks.
I know Marantz has AVRs with just pre outs for the L/R, which may or may not be cheaper than that $1,100.
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post #25 of 103 Old 02-24-2013, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonomaComa View Post

I am getting ready to purchase some Yamaha NS-777 floor speakers for a home theater set up. I will be purchasing the rest of the speakers in that same class for a 5.1 surround sound soon. Right now I am concentrating on the floor speakers and a nice Amp for them. They are 6ohm speakers and I will most likely B-Amp them. What would work best for a receiver? Maybe separates? I'm not sure as this is my first home theater set up other than HTIB.

Buy the absolute best speakers you can afford. Period…
Speakers are the core of your audio. I would not skimp on speaker budget to allow for a better receiver because you can always upgrade to a better receiver in a few years. The speakers I have are no longer made, but if I were to be in the market for speakers today, I'd be looking real hard at Paradigm speakers.
My subwoofer is an SVS. I would without hesitation buy another one.
There are a lot of speaker choices out there, good luck.
Separates vs whistles and bells, (receiver). There are lots of opinions out there, but my vote is for separates.

This would make a NICE entry level separates set-up in my opinion.
AMP: 200X5
http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/xpa5
AMP: 150X2
http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/xpa200

UMC-200 7.1 Home Theater Preamp/Surround Processor
http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/processors/products/umc200

Domino's donÂt fall all at once, they fall one at a time...
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post #26 of 103 Old 02-24-2013, 09:31 AM
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It's totally true that once you find speakers you like, you will use them through several other compnent upgrades over many years.
So my old theater, had seven mono block amps. Nice high end marantz driving them as a pre/pro. Dual 15" 500+ watt powered subs. Fully
recording studio class sound treated walls, blah blah blah, ect..ect....

Now I live in the mountains, in the middle of nowhere......
No sound treatments, Pioneer 1022 AVR driving the same speakers..... One old Low end 15" Velodyne sub where the amp had went out, so I fudged in an external Audiosource amp to drive it.
To cut to the chase? I would say I have 95+ percent of the sound and performance I had in my old theater. I attribute this to using the same speakers for the past like 15 years. JBL original S38's.
Not even that high end of a speaker, but I do love their sound and have kept them through countless processor and amp changes over many many years now.

I'm impressed with the recently added Low end Pioneer AVR. I mean even the scaler is good on the video processor side.
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post #27 of 103 Old 02-24-2013, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZOOM ZOOM View Post

Here is my take on this, Most amps that are not THX certified are not going to deliver their rated power. Such as a 5.1 receiver stating 100wpc, will deliver 100wpc with one channel driven, but not with all 5 channels driven.

Be they THX certified or not, the likelyhood of needing "all channels driven" rated power is slim to none in a normal room. Even less so if you add a sub to do some of the heavy lifting.

There seems to be some sort of internet cult thing going on with external amps and receivers because it defies practical application. I stand by what I said earlier.

Check out the amplifier FAQ and make an informed decision on what your needs are based on speaker efficiency, room size and listening distance.
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post #28 of 103 Old 02-24-2013, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suffolk112000 View Post

Buy the absolute best speakers you can afford. Period…

Good speakers are definitely a great starting point.

But, take the best speakers in the world, slap them in the middle of an empty room and they'll sound like crap. Everything you do from there is addressing room acoustics, like positioning them, adding carpets, drapes etc., all of which will enhance their performance.

It's a pretty dramatic example, but it's valid, you can get a lot of milage out of decent speakers if you address how they interact with the room and listening position.

The best way to get a good end result is to look at the whole picture, not just the amp or the speakers or any miracle pill for that matter.
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post #29 of 103 Old 02-24-2013, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Be they THX certified or not, the likelyhood of needing "all channels driven" rated power is slim to none in a normal room. Even less so if you add a sub to do some of the heavy lifting.

There seems to be some sort of internet cult thing going on with external amps and receivers because it defies practical application. I stand by what I said earlier.

Check out the amplifier FAQ and make an informed decision on what your needs are based on speaker efficiency, room size and listening distance.

I agree completely with the speakers and room acoustics being the most important part of your music system. And I might be misunderstanding your comment on amps, so I went to the ( Amplifier FAQ ) and found this to better state what I meant to say.

"On the other hand, the current FTC rule would allow the amp maker to rate their amp with only two channels driven. They could save money by building what looks like a 200x7 watt amp in their specs, but is really a 50x7 watt amp with all channels driven. I think it would be helpful to know the ACD rating in this case."
(quote from MichaelJHuman Avs Member Amplifier FAQ)

This is my reason for a separate amp for the main channels in a 5.1 or 7.1 system.

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post #30 of 103 Old 02-24-2013, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZOOM ZOOM View Post

I agree completely with the speakers and room acoustics being the most important part of your music system. And I might be misunderstanding your comment on amps, so I went to the ( Amplifier FAQ ) and found this to better state what I meant to say.

"On the other hand, the current FTC rule would allow the amp maker to rate their amp with only two channels driven. They could save money by building what looks like a 200x7 watt amp in their specs, but is really a 50x7 watt amp with all channels driven. I think it would be helpful to know the ACD rating in this case."
(quote from MichaelJHuman Avs Member Amplifier FAQ)

This is my reason for a separate amp for the main channels in a 5.1 or 7.1 system.

The drop for all channels driven is not likely to be that much; 200w ~ 50w. I saw the specs of a Canadian amp which I recall being listed as a 250w amp. As it turned out that was for one channel driven; all channels driven was 185w.

But if one has low efficiency speakers, more power is most certainly better. Or speakers that have a large impedance dip in the 80~250 htz range will certainly benefit from a 220w amp compared to a 100w AVR, which is probably not close to 100w.
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