Pioneer SC-LX86 - no format indication on front panel display (DTS, DTS HD, Tru HD etc..) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 11 Old 03-20-2013, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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My brand new Pioneer SC-LX86 is giving me a “front panel display” problem which I cannot solve, explain or understand.

Connected to the Pioneer - via hdmi - is a Denon DBP-2012UD (bluray player) which is programmed to output HDMI bitstream. When I play a bluray disc with DTS HD master audio material (like the Dark Knight Rises), the indicators on de the Denon correctly display this – DTS-HD MSTR. So far so good.

However, on the front panel of the Pioneer there is no format indication. I have checked the FAQ section of the manual and found on page 108 the following:

Symptom: When playing Dolby Digital or DTS sources, the receiver’s format indicators do not light.
Okay that’s my problem

Remedy 1: check that the player is connected using a digital connection – that’s okay
Remedy 2: make sure that the receiver is set to auto or digital – see choosing the input signal on page 60 – could that be it?!
(Remedy 3 & 4 here are not relevant)

So we go to page 60 “choosing the input signal” and follow the instructions – it reads: on the remote press the “receiver button” followed by “signal select” to loop through “auto” “analog” “digital” “hdmi” but whatever I do there’s no loop – it’s frozen on “hdmi” and there’s no way to set it to either “auto” or “digital” (but hdmi is digital not? – anyway …)
so we go back to page 108 and we read

symptom: you can’t get digital when using the “ signal select”
remedy: check the digital connections and make sure that the digital inputs are assigned correctly.

Well, the player is hooked to the non-assignable input labeled “BD IN” so that should be okay I guess.
Trying to use another (assignable) input does suddenly kick some life into the signal select sequence which now shows “hdmi” “ auto” “analog” but still no front panel display – so we ‘re back to square one.

By the way – very annoying, when you use the signal select button it reads SIGSEL instead of SIGNAL – is this a know bug to be corrected?! Anyone else with this “typo” ?

Just to be complete and to finalize, I am running the latest software, I do have sound. I checked my hdmi cables. I also checked with a friendly HiFi shop owner who did have the LX86 little brother in stock - the LX56, and this LX56 had exactly the same “deficiencies” - both no format indicator on the front panel display as well as the SIGSEL typo .
Must say that the 56 was setup in a hurry so it is quite possible that I am overlooking something.

Very grateful for some help.
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post #2 of 11 Old 03-20-2013, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by fanon View Post

By the way – very annoying, when you use the signal select button it reads SIGSEL instead of SIGNAL – is this a know bug to be corrected?! Anyone else with this “typo” ?

I'll address this one right away...& no it's not a typo. SIGSEL is short for Signal Select - since you use it to select the audio input signal.

why is this an issue other than you being picky? Pioneer has used that acronym for a long time on remotes. maybe this is your 1st Pioneer.

Either way, I certainly wouldn't call it a bug to be "fixed" rolleyes.gif get used to names used on your remote; they are accurately described in your manual.

I don't know what country you're in or your language but if you're native to English, I would think it's kind of intuitive what the abbreviation means but maybe not.

more to follow once I confirm some things on my SC-68, US version of LX86.

Steve
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post #3 of 11 Old 03-20-2013, 12:24 PM
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OK. I've checked mine. and I assure you it works.

you need to be aware of -

1. there are very small DTS-HD & MSTR indicators on the front that light up when a DTS-MA track is selected. this will remain lit for bitstreamed player, no matter what the surround processing mode you pick (NeoX, Optimum Surround, PLIIx, THX, etc)

LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01

2. IF you are adding processing such as NeoX, Prologic IIx/z, THX, the large bold letters will NOT say DTS-Mstr but will be the surround post processing you have selected.

3. IF you are in Direct/Pure Direct modes or cycle thru the processing modes to just plain DTS-MA, I assure you the large bold letters do say DTS-HD Mstr. If you are in Auto Surround, then you will see Optimum Surround, ALC, or whatever post processing you have selected. for example, if you choose Dolby PLIIz for adding height channels...the large bold display will say DDPLIz Height instead of DTS-HD Mstr. but the very small DTS-HD & MSTR lights will remain lit up.

4. IF you have set your player to send PCM, there are small indicators above the main display for DSD & PCM and the PCM one will be lit.

I think you're in one of the post surround processing modes, which is a normal use, and not seeing what you expect. does the large font display display THX, PLIIx, Optimum Surround, etc? if yes, then it's fine. it will only display DTS-Mstr when not in one of those modes. cycling thru them with the remote, ipod, iphone app will show DTS-Mstr right after Stereo I believe in the line-up, which means all you're getting is exactly what's on the disc. no rears, no heights, no wides. if you want those, then select the appropriate processing & the display will show that mode instead.

I think you may be overthinking this, connections, settings, etc when really all that is needed is for you to become familiar with it, especially since you notice the same thing on other models. they all aren't defective! wink.gif

And if you're upset why there are very tiny indicators that you can't read unless you are right in front of the receiver, Pioneer has given you a nice on-screen TV display for seeing the surround modes, volume & settings so you really don't need to read them from your couch! Just get used to your receiver! wink.gifsmile.gif

other mfgs are no different...in fact Marantz completely hides all this display stuff behind a door! they don't expect the typical user to need to see them, unless it's for setup. Nearly everyone nowadays wants & use the OSD on the TV.

it's HIGHLY improbable that yours is defective. looks to me to be a case of expectation gap. just cycle thru all the surround modes and watch how the display changes. you'll catch on on how it works smile.gif

Steve
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post #4 of 11 Old 03-20-2013, 12:55 PM
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hey am not sure how you have the AVR setup but ..the pioneer those display..audio formats. you will have to set the AVR input as well to auto....the input that you use for your dennon blu ray..set that input to bitstreame as well ...

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post #5 of 11 Old 03-20-2013, 02:58 PM
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for the record, I have 2 pioneer & 1 oppo blu-ray players, the oppo & 1 of the pioneer's connected to the SC-68, both set to HDMI Audio "Auto", which is bitstream. and neither one requires a special setting for their respective HDMI input in the receiver for bitstream. it just happens. the data stream is controlled by the player. I have owned & still use an SC-09tx (the susano SC-LX90 in europe) and both work the same way...no special receiver input setting is needed nor is there one to set wink.gif

if player is set to send PCM, that's what the receiver receives and what it displays, PCM. if player is set to bitstream or in some players, auto, then bitstream occurs and the receiver displays the decoded format in its designed way...which I think the OP hasn't figured out yet.

I just think the OP isn't familiar what the display is supposed to be...proof is he says he saw the same thing in other Pioneer models at dealer. so it can't be his receiver or setup. IMO, it's him wink.gif

he should just play with it, look at the display diagram in the manual & learn instead of complaining about how a remote button is labeled tongue.gif

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post #6 of 11 Old 03-20-2013, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

for the record, I have 2 pioneer & 1 oppo blu-ray players, the oppo & 1 of the pioneer's connected to the SC-68, both set to HDMI Audio "Auto", which is bitstream. and neither one requires a special setting for their respective HDMI input in the receiver for bitstream. it just happens. the data stream is controlled by the player. I have owned & still use an SC-09tx (the susano SC-LX90 in europe) and both work the same way...no special receiver input setting is needed nor is there one to set wink.gif

if player is set to send PCM, that's what the receiver receives and what it displays, PCM. if player is set to bitstream or in some players, auto, then bitstream occurs and the receiver displays the decoded format in its designed way...which I think the OP hasn't figured out yet.

I just think the OP isn't familiar what the display is supposed to be...proof is he says he saw the same thing in other Pioneer models at dealer. so it can't be his receiver or setup. IMO, it's him wink.gif

he should just play with it, look at the display diagram in the manual & learn instead of complaining about how a remote button is labeled tongue.gif
I corrected.. the quote.. what you said is what I was trying to say..

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post #7 of 11 Old 03-21-2013, 12:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

I'll address this one right away...& no it's not a typo. SIGSEL is short for Signal Select - since you use it to select the audio input signal.

why is this an issue other than you being picky? Pioneer has used that acronym for a long time on remotes. maybe this is your 1st Pioneer.

Either way, I certainly wouldn't call it a bug to be "fixed" rolleyes.gif get used to names used on your remote; they are accurately described in your manual.

I don't know what country you're in or your language but if you're native to English, I would think it's kind of intuitive what the abbreviation means but maybe not.

more to follow once I confirm some things on my SC-68, US version of LX86.

thanks very much indeed for replying

You are right - I was being picky for which I apologize biggrin.gif and yes again, it's my first Pioneer (recently came over from an other major brand smile.gif )
I am Dutch and live in Belgium - am reasonable native to English. Bit foolish of me not making the click to Signal Select I guess. So I stand corrected biggrin.gif

I will carefully read your reply concerning the display and will be back.

ths so far
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post #8 of 11 Old 03-21-2013, 04:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

OK. I've checked mine. and I assure you it works.

you need to be aware of -

1. there are very small DTS-HD & MSTR indicators on the front that light up when a DTS-MA track is selected. this will remain lit for bitstreamed player, no matter what the surround processing mode you pick (NeoX, Optimum Surround, PLIIx, THX, etc)

LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01

2. IF you are adding processing such as NeoX, Prologic IIx/z, THX, the large bold letters will NOT say DTS-Mstr but will be the surround post processing you have selected.

3. IF you are in Direct/Pure Direct modes or cycle thru the processing modes to just plain DTS-MA, I assure you the large bold letters do say DTS-HD Mstr. If you are in Auto Surround, then you will see Optimum Surround, ALC, or whatever post processing you have selected. for example, if you choose Dolby PLIIz for adding height channels...the large bold display will say DDPLIz Height instead of DTS-HD Mstr. but the very small DTS-HD & MSTR lights will remain lit up.

4. IF you have set your player to send PCM, there are small indicators above the main display for DSD & PCM and the PCM one will be lit.

I think you're in one of the post surround processing modes, which is a normal use, and not seeing what you expect. does the large font display display THX, PLIIx, Optimum Surround, etc? if yes, then it's fine. it will only display DTS-Mstr when not in one of those modes. cycling thru them with the remote, ipod, iphone app will show DTS-Mstr right after Stereo I believe in the line-up, which means all you're getting is exactly what's on the disc. no rears, no heights, no wides. if you want those, then select the appropriate processing & the display will show that mode instead.

I think you may be overthinking this, connections, settings, etc when really all that is needed is for you to become familiar with it, especially since you notice the same thing on other models. they all aren't defective! wink.gif

And if you're upset why there are very tiny indicators that you can't read unless you are right in front of the receiver, Pioneer has given you a nice on-screen TV display for seeing the surround modes, volume & settings so you really don't need to read them from your couch! Just get used to your receiver! wink.gifsmile.gif

other mfgs are no different...in fact Marantz completely hides all this display stuff behind a door! they don't expect the typical user to need to see them, unless it's for setup. Nearly everyone nowadays wants & use the OSD on the TV.

it's HIGHLY improbable that yours is defective. looks to me to be a case of expectation gap. just cycle thru all the surround modes and watch how the display changes. you'll catch on on how it works smile.gif


Steve,

First and foremost - I found the problem smile.gif - but let me give you the background and circumstances - I refer to the picture of the display in your post and will quote the numer (x) of the display area.

I carefully read trough your post but on my AVR there was no display other then a PCM notification - in small (4) and large (20) no matter what I tried. So in the area (3) nothing was lit, although the player said that he was sending DTS HD via HDMI.
Really started to doubt myself as I understood the logic of your explanation. I doubble checked the Denon again and it was properly programmed for HDMI bitstream.
So to cut a long story short I borrowed a Pioneer BDP LX-70A from a friend and hooked it to the AVR via HDMI and on the same AVR input.

Bingo - the display was acting exactly as you described above - so now I had in (20) and in (3) the correct indication. I subsequently reconnected the Denon again and went straight back to the old problem. No display other then PCM
So I disconnected the HDMI cable between AVR and Denon and put a coaxial instead, and of course made the necessary setup changes. Bingo again - on the coax I had the proper bitstream displayed in (3) & (20).

Seems my Denon is pumping PCM over the HDMI connection irrespectively of the settings. I will have another look but if push comes to shove there's still warrantee untill end this year.

Now the only thing which puzzles me is why at my friends shop I had the same phenomenon on the LX56 - but I guess there will be a very simple explanation in terms of settings (which in the hurry yesterday was overlooked).
I will go to my friend's shop tomorrow, just out of curiosity smile.gif

I will certainly do some more manual reading & experimenting in order to get better acqainted with my new Pioneer biggrin.gif

thanks again!

Frits
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post #9 of 11 Old 03-21-2013, 07:52 AM
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Frits

I've never owned a Denon player but have seriously considered them when I considered changing from Pioneer to Denon AVR's wink.gif Pioneer & Oppo players do not exhibit this behavior with Pioneer AVR's.

I checked the manual for your player this AM, and there are several additional settings that may be suspect in why your player wants to always send PCM rather than bitstream to the Pioneer. I don't have time to post them right now but a bit later I will. Stay tuned...

Steve
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post #10 of 11 Old 03-21-2013, 10:12 AM
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OK - here's what I'd try in your Denon. Make sure player is set to bitstream, then -

1. look at your manual, pg. 27. there is a setting, BD Audio Mode. by default it looks like it's set to Mix Audio Output. Mix Audio Output adds secondary audio (commentary, etc) to the audio output and downsamples any DTS-MA that's 192khz to 96khz. the key here is it adding secondary audio...bitstreaming prevents secondary audio tracks from being sent so by enabling this, it may force the player to decode to PCM. try changing this to the other setting - HD Audio Output, which the manual says sends DTS-MA, TrueHD. It also says HD Audio Output disables secondary audio so I think this will allow the player to bitstream.

2. in case that doesn't work, make sure Secondary Audio is also set to Off.

3. if that doesn't work, also try turning HDMI Control off in both the player & receiver. Pioneer uses the HDMI Control feature for its proprietary PQLS jitterfree system in players & receivers, similar to what DenonLink does. while having HDMI Control on shouldn't be an issue since Denon doesn't have the PQLS system, if you get to this point, it's worth a try.

4. finally, if still no bitstream, you might want to experiment with different downsampling rates in the Down Sampling setting, default is 48 khz but you could try either 96 or 192.

I think #1 may likely be your culprit because it strongly implies it's going to add secondary audio and that would force the player to decode as PCM before sending. Why Denon defaults Mix is beyond me...that's counter-intuitive to how most companies implement the output, from my experience. Both Pioneer & Oppo default to bitstream & secondary audio is turned off, the direct opposite. I've also had a 1st gen Panasonic player (the very 1st BD player to hit the marketplace @ $1200!) and it was set the same way...bitstream as default with secondary audio off. Denon may default to Bitstream but then turning on the Mix Audio setting to decode to PCM just may over-ride the other setting...pretty stupid! rolleyes.gif if this was your problem, my opinion of Denon just went down several notches for making a dumb decision on an out of the box setup, especially for novices tongue.gif

If nothing works, I'd post in the Blu-ray player forum & ask about your Denon player smile.gif Because I can't think of anything else to force your player to bitstream. Or sell the Denon & buy an Oppo player - problem solved biggrin.gif

The Pioneer receiver is fine...I'm nearly 100% sure it's your player settings.

HDMI Output - set to bitstream
BD Audio - set to HD Audio
Secondary Audio - set to Off
Down Sampling - try 96 or 192 as last resort

to be perfectly honest, Denon's BD Audio setting seems superfluous because all that's needed is to set the HDMI audio output to bitstream or PCM and the secondary audio to on/off. no other step is needed or used by Pioneer, Oppo, or Panasonic players. Denon made it confusing & unnecessary to do 3 settings to accomplish the work of 2.

Hopefully, this takes care of your problem smile.gif

Steve
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post #11 of 11 Old 03-21-2013, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Steve,

Funny that you once considered to go from "P" to "D" - I recently did the reverse and that after many years and lots of " AVR's & DVD/BD boxes" smile.gif I will spare you the details but I recently had quite some misfortune which led me to the other camp .....

Anyway, back to today - so I got the manual and dusted if off - and went to the page you were referring to - and what can I say, you put your finger on the very spot! How stupid can one be biggrin.gif - feel a bit ashamed as I ve been around and consider myself not a noob.

Changed the setting "mixed audio ouput" back to "HD audio output" and every thing was running like a charm! I have absolutely no clue why this setting was set to mixed.
Very happy that the prob is solved - many thanks for your help in this matter.

I have been spending quite some time on my new Pioneer and feel much more comfortable with it. I have one small issue left for which I cannot find a solution.
In short - how can I directly select, or better said with which single button press on the remote, the HDMI 4 (Video) input on the rear. Reason being I've got 5 HDMI sources of which 4 are properly programmed in a logitec harmony remote type one, but for the 5th source (IN4 Video)I cannot locate the corresponding button. Cycling though with input select back and fwd is no solution, I cannot programm that in the harmony. Perhaps is is just not available but I thought I just ask you. biggrin.gif

again, many thanks for your excellent help

rgds,

Frits
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