Yamaha RX-V 75 Series owners thread - Page 103 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 06-29-2016, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by rmjb View Post
I must say though. I am not impressed with YPAO in my RX-V375. I tried the different "styles" of running YPAO that were recommended throughout the thread. Firstly not worrying about getting my levels to be around 0 then trying to again to achieve this, etc.

I always found that the low end bass was unimpressive. If you recall I replaced a dead Onkyo TX-NR616 with this and the Audessy config in that unit sounded more full from what I can remember. I first thought (being influenced by zillch) that this is how it was supposed to be, just get used to it.
I used the train crash scene in Super 8 as my test piece and had to turn the volume up really loud to get any sort of impact, up to -10db! Regular listening in my enclosed room is -30db.
Then I visited a friend with my 3 yr old daughter and he has a Pioneer AVR with the same Energy Take 5 speakers that I have, but he changed the fronts to the Pioneer Andrew Jones floorstanders. For the kiddies to dance he played a cartoon on YouTube set to a Jamaican dancehall track which sounded wonderful in his set up. Jamaican dancehall music tends to be bass rich.
A couple weeks later, during a 3 yr old dance party in my TV room I decided to play the same track my heart sank, it was weak. I turned the knob up on the sub for a quick and dirty fix.
I left it there for a week but it was too boomy, so I re-ran YPAO and had to turn the sub knob down down down to nine o'clock to ensure no level was pegged at -10. Also, YPAO set my crossover to 80Hz! My small Energy sats are only rated down to 110Hz and I am sure that is a generous rating, as manufacturers would do. I bumped the crossover up to 120Hz with only a little improvement.
At the same time I was reading about Plasma tweaking bass tone controls and SW trim levels, so I tried each tweak and then both. Again, a little improvement, but the train crash still had insignificant impact.
Finally, after reading a LONG article about integrating subs and phase, etc. I just tried flipping the SW Phase setting in the config to Reverse and viola! Finally some low level response. I have not crashed the train yet but I hope I have finally achieved something.

So how is it that YPAO can set my crossover so off and set my subwoofer phase off also? I doubt that room interactions can influence these little 3.5" drivers to get down to 80Hz.
I also learned that YPAO is not setting the speakers to reference, but rather relative to the other speakers. Once there is no +-10 in the level, one speaker (the FL?) is set to 0 and all others are relative to that. That means that if my FL speaker is more efficient that yours then the volume I get at -30db will be different than the volume you get a -30db.
The following is my opinion/preference (stated to avoid any debate): On my HTR-3066/RX-375, I leave EQ off (not PEQ or GEQ). I reverse SW phase on the sub plate amp controls, and I leave bass and treble controls in the default bypass position.

I use the YPAO set trims, but I set them so the lowest YPAO set trim channel is -10.0dB and the rest are offset as per YPAO values. Doing so is like having less efficient speakers and this allows me to keep sw trim and sw gain knob at reasonable levels. Otherwise, in my setup, I have to crank sw gain too high and/or use sw trim that is basically maxed out.

I have verified by REW and UMIK-1 that sw phase needs to be reversed after YPAO (I do it on sub amp but avr setting also works) to avoid having a big dip at the crossover with L+R+subs and CC+subs. YPAO currently selects a 90Hz crossover (global) for my bookshelf speakers, which is about right in my setup. However, I have had it select too low values like 80Hz for cube speakers with 2.5 inch woofers or too high values like 110Hz or 120Hz for bookshelves with 4 to 6.5 inch woofers.

*The secret is YPAO sets crossovers based on BOTH speakers lower f3 point AND subs upper f3 point. So, if you're sub is only good to 80Hz due to a null/dip above that or if you apply sub EQ via MiniDSP 2x4 or LPF to limit upper subs extension YPAO will use lower crossovers than the speakers might be able to handle or perform optimally with. I stumbled on this by accident by have confirmed it with measurements time and time again... I know that Audyssey uses the speakers lower f3 point only to determine crossovers, not subs upper f3 point.*

So, in a nutshell I don't care for YPAO when it comes to auto PEQ, crossovers, sw phase, or setting trims to get 0MV to produce reference level. This might be because the 3066/375 is the most basic model in the lineup and also because YPAO is different from Audyssey and MCACC.

I do use YPAO for setting distances and use set trims for offsets. I let REW/MiniDSP and some listening and common sense sort out the rest. Until I have saved up for something like the Denon AVR-3300W, with Audyssey XT32 and Sub EQ HT.
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Old 06-29-2016, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
*The secret is YPAO sets crossovers based on BOTH speakers lower f3 point AND subs upper f3 point. So, if you're sub is only good to 80Hz due to a null/dip above that or if you apply sub EQ via MiniDSP 2x4 or LPF to limit upper subs extension YPAO will use lower crossovers than the speakers might be able to handle or perform optimally with. I stumbled on this by accident by have confirmed it with measurements time and time again... I know that Audyssey uses the speakers lower f3 point only to determine crossovers, not subs upper f3 point.*

I just want to verify my understanding that your contention that YPAO in your HTR3066/RXV375 makes decisions about crossover frequency based partly on what it hears from the sub, not just the satellites, is based solely on your own observations and/or measurements, and not from any Yamaha documentation. Correct?

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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Old 06-29-2016, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
*The secret is YPAO sets crossovers based on BOTH speakers lower f3 point AND subs upper f3 point. So, if you're sub is only good to 80Hz due to a null/dip above that or if you apply sub EQ via MiniDSP 2x4 or LPF to limit upper subs extension YPAO will use lower crossovers than the speakers might be able to handle or perform optimally with. I stumbled on this by accident by have confirmed it with measurements time and time again... I know that Audyssey uses the speakers lower f3 point only to determine crossovers, not subs upper f3 point.*

I just want to verify that your contention that YPAO in your HTR3066/RXV375 makes decisions about crossover frequency based partly on what it hears from the sub, not just the satellites, is based solely on your own observations and/or measurements, and not from any Yamaha documentation. Correct?
Yes, based on my experience with my specific AVR and speakers, room, placement, etc. (REW was the objective element of my tests that led me to this conclusion.)

*However, comparing REW measures with YPAO set crossovers made this quite obvious in various cases/configurations.*

Now I don't know exactly how YPAO sets crossovers with its test tones and calculations, but I know the correlation between the measured upper extension on my sub and the measured low extension of each speaker vs. the YPAO set crossover.

For example, when I placed my former Dayton sub and before that my Yamaha HTiB sub in the front left corner of the room where a null basically killed all upper extension past ~80Hz, I got a 80Hz crossover despite my speakers measuring an f3 point in my room and placement that was considerably higher.

Right now I use a midwall placement for my Rythmik sub along the left wall and I get much better upper extension, strong to at least 100Hz or a bit more. Sometimes with that and bookshelves (rated -6dB at 48Hz), I get 100Hz or 110Hz crossover. But measured in room f3 points are just under 90Hz.

If I set the sub's LPF to limit upper extension to 80Hz, I get YPAO 80Hz crossover. Only change being the sub's upper extension.
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Old 06-29-2016, 12:38 PM
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If I set the sub's LPF to limit upper extension to 80Hz, I get YPAO 80Hz crossover.
You understand that common wisdom, and I'm pretty sure both Yamaha and Rythmik agree, that when working with a receiver that has a room correction mic calibration system (such as YPAO or Audyssey), that one should not use the frequency control on the sub itself, ever, it should be bypassed entirely, and if the sub has no provision to totally bypass that circuitry with a switch that one should at least dial it up to the max frequency [I think 120Hz on most Rythmiks] and let the receiver actually be in control of the sub's LPF. Yes?


EDIT: OOps I'm wrong . Rythmik thinks they should come into play too:


"This subwoofer is designed to use with the bass management in an AV receiver. With many subwoofers, it is difficult to get a correct and seamless integration with the main speakers because the amplifier settings are often very different to the measured response. You may set the crossover point to 80 Hz, but the actual crossover point may be anywhere between 60 and 100 Hz! The crossover control knob on our plate amplifier can serve as a fine tuning tool to reduce the overlap in output between the main speakers and the subwoofer. The sub has 3 extension settings for 3 different frequency response contours...."

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

Last edited by m. zillch; 06-29-2016 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 06-29-2016, 12:51 PM
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If I set the sub's LPF to limit upper extension to 80Hz, I get YPAO 80Hz crossover.
You understand that common wisdom, and I'm pretty sure both Yamaha and Rythmik agree, that when working with a receiver that has a room correction mic calibration system (such as YPAO or Audyssey), that one should not use the frequency control on the sub itself, ever, it should be bypassed entirely, and if the sub has no provision to totally bypass that circuitry with a switch that one should at least dial it up to the max frequency [I think 120Hz on most Rythmiks] and let the receiver actually be in control of the sub's LPF. Yes?
Of course... but when room acoustics limit upper extension on your sub thats when this can become an issue in certain setups. Like my initial htib speakers and intial sub placement in front left corner.

Nevertheless, it was an interesting observation since prior to confirming this via REW I thought in room speaker lower extension (f3 point) was the sole determinant of crossover.

If someone wants to test this via lowering the lpf frequency on their subs to see if YPAO selects lower crossovers than normal, that could confirm if what I noticed is isolated behavior to my unit/model/firmware or simply how YPAO works.

Though Yamaha doesn't give much details on how YPAO works... so official documentation on the matter likely doesn't exist.
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Old 06-29-2016, 12:57 PM
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General advice from Rythmik is use LFE input which has no LPF or phase adjustments on plate amp OR use Line In input(s) with LPF frequency maxed out and LPF slope at 12dB per octave.

The part you quoted is generally not recommended by Rythmik unless the specific situation calls for it or is preferred by the listener for some reason.

Also the 3 settings for low end extension and damping have nothing to do with the sub's upper extension/end.
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Old 07-03-2016, 05:34 PM
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Hi all,

I have a Yamaha RX-V575 that I've had for a few years and I like it a lot. However in the last week or so it's started behaving strangely. Approximately every 15-30 minutes the audio will randomly drop out for about 1-2 seconds and then come back on. The video is fine, and the receiver gives no indication that anything is wrong.

I've tried replacing the HDMI cable and using different sources, and it keeps happening so I'm pretty sure I've isolated the problem to the receiver. I've made zero changes to my home theatre setup so I'm worried it's a hardware failure on the Yamaha. Anyone have any ideas? I know this thing is out of warranty but would I have any luck trying to get it serviced anyway? I've emailed Yamaha support but no reply yet.

Thanks!
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Old 07-03-2016, 05:47 PM
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If it is a source you can pause and replay you might try repeating the exact same passage again to see if this problem is related to that section of the incoming signal itself. Also put your hand on top of the receiver when this happens next to see if it is running abnormally hot when this occurs. Some warmth is of course always expected.


Has anything changed in your system recently like the shelving, room temperature, or component stacking order? Do you hear that "click" sound like you do 10 seconds or so after powering on (which is the speaker muting relay) or not click when this happens and it then resuscitates itself?

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

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Old 07-03-2016, 05:52 PM
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Is this from all HDMI inputs? By different sources I assumed you meant different devices. It would cost more to repair than it's worth unfortunately.
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Old 07-03-2016, 08:06 PM
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If it is a source you can pause and replay you might try repeating the exact same passage again to see if this problem is related to that section of the incoming signal itself. Also put your hand on top of the receiver when this happens next to see if it is running abnormally hot when this occurs. Some warmth is of course always expected.


Has anything changed in your system recently like the shelving, room temperature, or component stacking order? Do you hear that "click" sound like you do 10 seconds or so after powering on (which is the speaker muting relay) or not click when this happens and it then resuscitates itself?
I'm confident it's not the source. If I rewind I don't get the same problem. And I have this issue no matter whether I'm using cable box, laptop, or 2 game consoles and I've tested every HDMI in and get the same result. I can't really do anything when it happens because it only lasts 1-2 seconds and it's not on a regular schedule (sometimes it takes 15 minutes, sometimes 30, sometimes 1+ hour) but it keeps happening. The receiver doesn't seem abnormally hot.

There is no clicking noise (I know what you're referring to - had that problem on an old Onkyo receiver) and nothing has changed in my setup whatsoever. It just started happening suddenly about a week ago or so.

All that happens is I lose audio (not video) for 1-2 seconds and then it comes back like it never happened. The receiver display doesn't change at all either. It's been driving me crazy.
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Old 07-03-2016, 08:09 PM
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Is this from all HDMI inputs? By different sources I assumed you meant different devices. It would cost more to repair than it's worth unfortunately.
Happens in all HDMI inputs, and keeps happening even after changing all HDMI cables with brand new ones.

If the receiver is toast then ok whatever, but I don't want to go buy a new one if this is just a settings issue or something. I'd like to confirm that it's a hardware failure before replacing it but I don't really know how to do that.

At this point I'm 99% sure the problem is the receiver. When I connect my cable box directly to the TV the problem doesn't happen (though I get sound only out of TV speaker). And it seems impossible to me that it could be my speakers or the speaker cables (since I get the audio drop out on all 5 speakers at the same time)
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Old 07-03-2016, 08:46 PM
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Sorry, it seems the Yamaha is sick and there's nothing you can do yourself. There is no setting which might be causing this. The only other thing I could suggest is converting away from HDMI and going to component connections [red, green, blue RCA wires.] That is still technically HD but limits you to 720p and 1080i, no 1080p allowed, but can still look great and is almost indistinguishable on much material. The sound would be limited to digital coax and optical connections coming in like Dolby Digital and DTS 5.1: also usually quite good.


Repairs out of warranty are often expensive especially if you have to pay for shipping and can't drop the unit off at a repair center directly to avoid shipping charges. Maybe consider a used one from ebay or a factory refurbished version ["b-stock"]?


If you bought the unit with a credit card it is quite possible that you were given an extra year of warranty. Check your card's issuer for details. Good luck.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

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Old 07-03-2016, 10:19 PM
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Sounds like more typical HDMI handshaking issues thanks to Hollywoods never ending greed.

Keep your HDMI for video and use either optical or coaxial for audio. If there still is a problem, bypass the receiver for video and run HDMI straight into the TV with your optical or coaxial into the receiver
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Old 07-03-2016, 10:43 PM
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Sounds like more typical HDMI handshaking issues
But when an HDMI connection doesn't have a good handshake doesn't it stop both sound and picture? He says image continues on flawlessly and it is only the sound which cuts out momentarialy.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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Old 07-03-2016, 10:51 PM
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I'm not sure about that. Maybe someone else can chime in here.

Take at look here at a old thread;
HDMI connected audio drops out

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Free, abundant OTA television separates this country from many others. ATSC1 has only been in force since 2009. The wireless industry has enough spectrum. Enough of 'planned obsolesce'.

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Old 07-03-2016, 11:22 PM
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Sorry, it seems the Yamaha is sick and there's nothing you can do yourself. There is no setting which might be causing this. The only other thing I could suggest is converting away from HDMI and going to component connections [red, green, blue RCA wires.] That is still technically HD but limits you to 720p and 1080i, no 1080p allowed, but can still look great and is almost indistinguishable on much material. The sound would be limited to digital coax and optical connections coming in like Dolby Digital and DTS 5.1: also usually quite good.


Repairs out of warranty are often expensive especially if you have to pay for shipping and can't drop the unit off at a repair center directly to avoid shipping charges. Maybe consider a used one from ebay or a factory refurbished version ["b-stock"]?


If you bought the unit with a credit card it is quite possible that you were given an extra year of warranty. Check your card's issuer for details. Good luck.
Thanks - that's what I was afraid of. Too bad, but I guess I will start shopping for a new AVR.
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Old 07-03-2016, 11:33 PM
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dan_druff;
So you don't want to bother troubleshooting as was suggested?

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Old 07-03-2016, 11:37 PM
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Be dead sure that the problem is cured by entirely bypassing the receiver and sending the sources straight to the TV and it's internal speakers, first. I would hate for you to buy a new receiver only to discover you are still having the same problem. DOH!
---


You said nothing changes on the receiver when this happens but are you dead sure the little pictograph of the 5.1 speakers doesn't blink off when this happens? That front panel pictograph sort of indicates the Yamaha believes everything is honky-dory, the handshake is good, it is successfully decoding the sound as far as it knows. If that pictograph blinks off then Yamaha is saying: "I've lost the connection".

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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Old 07-04-2016, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by dan_druff View Post
Hi all,

I have a Yamaha RX-V575 that I've had for a few years and I like it a lot. However in the last week or so it's started behaving strangely. Approximately every 15-30 minutes the audio will randomly drop out for about 1-2 seconds and then come back on. The video is fine, and the receiver gives no indication that anything is wrong.

I've tried replacing the HDMI cable and using different sources, and it keeps happening so I'm pretty sure I've isolated the problem to the receiver. I've made zero changes to my home theatre setup so I'm worried it's a hardware failure on the Yamaha. Anyone have any ideas? I know this thing is out of warranty but would I have any luck trying to get it serviced anyway? I've emailed Yamaha support but no reply yet.

Thanks!
Unplug it overnight.
If that doesnt work buy a different receiver with a 30 day return policy and see if it stops.
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Old 07-04-2016, 02:38 AM
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dan_druff;
So you don't want to bother troubleshooting as was suggested?
Must have missed your last post. I will check it out and report back results. Thanks!
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Old 07-04-2016, 02:42 AM
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Be dead sure that the problem is cured by entirely bypassing the receiver and sending the sources straight to the TV and it's internal speakers, first. I would hate for you to buy a new receiver only to discover you are still having the same problem. DOH!
---


You said nothing changes on the receiver when this happens but are you dead sure the little pictograph of the 5.1 speakers doesn't blink off when this happens? That front panel pictograph sort of indicates the Yamaha believes everything is honky-dory, the handshake is good, it is successfully decoding the sound as far as it knows. If that pictograph blinks off then Yamaha is saying: "I've lost the connection".
I can confirm the pictograph does not blink when it happens. I sat and stared at the pictograph for 10 minutes straight waiting for another sound drop out.

I tried plugging my wii u directly to the tv and played for an hour with sound coming from tv speakers. No drop out. I then plugged the wii u back in the receiver and had 2 audio drop outs within 5 minutes. The problem seems to be getting worse.

I'm going to unplug the receiver overnight as someone suggested and see if that helps. Thanks everyone!
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Old 07-04-2016, 05:17 AM
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I've had weird HDMI issues before with some Sony AVRs (2) and some were due to the AVR and TV not playing well together in terms of the HDMI handshake (only solution would be a different TV or AVR) and some were when the AVR became defective.

I ultimately ended up either selling them or insisting on store credit because I had bought an extended warranty from BB.

Audio dropouts are very annoying and the Sony AVR I had right before this Yamaha had that issue and BB and Sony failed to fix it since the issue was intermittent and it happened when BB checked it but not when Sony did. And BB didn't actually service anything... Sony would have to do that.

So, they kept my AVR for a month before returning it with no service performed... I insisted that they give me store credit for it and I bought the Yamaha with it.

Now I do get picture drop outs with my Yamaha on a regular basis, but only with one of the TVs in the house. The others I tried don't have that problem. Thankfully these picture dropouts don't happen frequently enough to ruin my ht experience, but when I get a new AVR hopefully that annoyance will end.

(And I have troubleshooted this issue to no end, it has the be an HDMI handshaking issue specific to this TV and Yamaha AVR.)

Bottom line is try troubleshooting first, but if that fails then you're probably best off with a new AVR, which if you get a 2015 model on sale you can get a great deal on.
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Old 07-04-2016, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
(And I have troubleshooted this issue to no end, it has the be an HDMI handshaking issue specific to this TV and Yamaha AVR.)
Sounds like it to me. Its not uncommon these days.
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Old 07-04-2016, 10:54 AM
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I'm going to unplug the receiver overnight as someone suggested and see if that helps. Thanks everyone!
I would additionally do a hard factory reset:
http://faq.yamaha.com/us/en/article/...k_u/10656/7752

[This unfortunately will erase everything, including radio presets which are a pain to have to re-enter. Sorry.]

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Old 07-07-2016, 11:19 AM
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Sounds like more typical HDMI handshaking issues thanks to Hollywoods never ending greed.

Keep your HDMI for video and use either optical or coaxial for audio. If there still is a problem, bypass the receiver for video and run HDMI straight into the TV with your optical or coaxial into the receiver
Excellent idea. Send video straight to the TV via HDMI, and use coax/TOSLINK audio sent to the AVR (if possible, I know some devices won't even support that these days). The suggestion to reset the AVR is a good one too, try it after if you still have drop outs with audio via digital audio, or HDMI again.

Does the audio drop out regardless of what decoding mode you're using? Regardless of the audio signal coming in (DD 2.0, DD 5.1, Dolby or DTS HD)?

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