The 'Official' 2013 Denon "E Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 103 - AVS Forum
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post #3061 of 8157 Old 10-21-2013, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
Issues are listed in post #4 and firmware updates in post #6.
Great thanks! And as it was edited just yesterday that answers my question! smile.gif
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post #3062 of 8157 Old 10-21-2013, 01:55 PM
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^ This is very common with simplistic (non-discriminatory) DVD-> 1080p/24 tech. The problem is, unlike BD, DVDs never have an (optional) 24Hz frame rate. The best you can do is fake it, and if the DVD source was film with a natural (usually) 24fps rate, it won't look too bad and can actually look REALLY good. If the source was video, or even worse mixed film and video, then it's probably going to look juddery and have tearing etc. Just ask OPPO, who have used several versions over the years, none "cheap", but all with varying capability and success.

Cfraser, thanks for the helpful reply.

I understood that there was some type of faux 24p being added but never expected it to look like that.

I did some more research on the web and noticed the oppo 93 outputs DVDs at 480i and then adds 24p 1080p. Right now I have the ps3 outputting 1080i and then the denon adds 24p to it.

My question is, should I change the ps3 to output DVDs to 480i and then let the denon so the work? I guess it's something's fan experiment with....

Also, how can you tell which DVDs are film sources and which are video film sources? So as to avoid outputting the wrong conversion with the wrong material ie video DVD @24p instead of 1080p@60hz
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post #3063 of 8157 Old 10-21-2013, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't think the PS3 can output 480i on DVD. I think the minimum output is to have it output at 480p (thus the PS3 is already doing the progressive deinterlace of the 480i signal).

In your earlier post you had the PS3 outputting 1080p, now you say 1080i, which is it?

Either way, I would scrap the receiver processing to 24p as it's somewhat pointless as cfraser pointed out above. It's even worse with 2 steps in the chain, if the PS3 is already processsing and upscaling to 1080i/p then whatever goodness you might have been able to extract is now gone. Unless you can go "source direct" from the DVD at 480i straight to the receiver's VP, then you should just let the PS3 output at 1080p and be done with it.

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post #3064 of 8157 Old 10-21-2013, 06:16 PM
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Hi, I am the longtime owner of a Denon AVR-2807 which has performed flawlessly since 2007. I have read the reviews of the AVR-X3000 & find that this would be the choice for my next receiver. I am using a Panasonic TC-P55ST60, and wonder if the X3000 would provide a much better listening experience as well as an easier owner interface (my wife still has issues with pressing the wrong buttons)

Would I gain that much by moving up to the X-3000 or is the 2807 sufficient for normal home A//V applications?

Thanks in advance for your guidance!
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post #3065 of 8157 Old 10-21-2013, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by WIRELESSMAN View Post

Hi, I am the longtime owner of a Denon AVR-2807 which has performed flawlessly since 2007. I have read the reviews of the AVR-X3000 & find that this would be the choice for my next receiver. I am using a Panasonic TC-P55ST60, and wonder if the X3000 would provide a much better listening experience as well as an easier owner interface (my wife still has issues with pressing the wrong buttons)

Would I gain that much by moving up to the X-3000 or is the 2807 sufficient for normal home A//V applications?

Thanks in advance for your guidance!

I guess that would really depend on the speakers it will be powering from a "better listening experience" standpoint. I just purchased an X1000 for my apartment & with my Definitive Technology speakers & love it!!!

Carmine
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post #3066 of 8157 Old 10-21-2013, 07:14 PM
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The X3000 provides the same grade of Audyssey (MultEQ XT) as the 2807, so their audio performance after calibration should be the same.

If you want a noticeable upgrade in audio quality you should consider the X4000 instead. It provides the highest grade of Audyssey currently available (MultEQ XT32).

Otherwise, you'll need to carefully compare the features in the two receivers to see which, if any, are better than what you have now.

FWIW, many people claim that using one of the Logitech Harmony remotes can provide a better user experience than manufacturer-specific remotes once you've programmed it appropriately.

Edited to add: of course, speakers and room treatments provide most of the audio quality. Room EQ software can only do so much.

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post #3067 of 8157 Old 10-21-2013, 07:40 PM
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Batpig

I was doing both....experimenting. First did 1080p then switched to 1080i. I just wanted to see the outcome.


Now I know it would best for the DVD to go out straight in 480i as you suggested since the ps3 is already doing the conversion and then the denon is adding it own to the mix.....problem is I'll have to find a cheap DVD player capable of that. The ps3 is the only DVD/bluray/CD player I own.

Are there other players capable of doing DVD 24p other than the oppo?
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post #3068 of 8157 Old 10-21-2013, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I don't think the PS3 can output 480i on DVD. I think the minimum output is to have it output at 480p (thus the PS3 is already doing the progressive deinterlace of the 480i signal).

In your earlier post you had the PS3 outputting 1080p, now you say 1080i, which is it?

Either way, I would scrap the receiver processing to 24p as it's somewhat pointless as cfraser pointed out above. It's even worse with 2 steps in the chain, if the PS3 is already processsing and upscaling to 1080i/p then whatever goodness you might have been able to extract is now gone. Unless you can go "source direct" from the DVD at 480i straight to the receiver's VP, then you should just let the PS3 output at 1080p and be done with it .

" I would scrap the receiver processing to 24p as it's somewhat pointless as cfraser pointed out above. "

Is the denons vp really that bad? I thought it was a top tier chip?


"Unless you can go "source direct" from the DVD at 480i straight to the receiver's VP, then you should just let the PS3 output at 1080p and be done with it "

Well the ps3 doesn't do a great job with removing jaggies and cleaning up the signal. Same with my tv. I wanted to use the denons vp to take advantage of its SD upconverting algorithms...I assumed it was really good since this was a high end receiver

Now I just don't know
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post #3069 of 8157 Old 10-21-2013, 08:16 PM
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Hi Carmine,

I am using:

JBL SRX Series (Pro Audio) SR4732X for the front (BIG & HEAVY)
JBL CST55's for the rear
JBL LC-2 for the center.
Mirage Omni S-12 Subwoofer
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post #3070 of 8157 Old 10-21-2013, 08:37 PM
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Selden, Thank you much for the recommendation - that was the info that I was looking for.

I didn't really want to go for the top of the line, but I see that there are some good deals on the X4000.

I have been offered an older Harmony remote, but didn't think it would control my new Panasonic TV, as it is less than a year old.
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post #3071 of 8157 Old 10-21-2013, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WIRELESSMAN View Post

Hi Carmine,

I am using:

JBL SRX Series (Pro Audio) SR4732X for the front (BIG & HEAVY)
JBL CST55's for the rear
JBL LC-2 for the center.
Mirage Omni S-12 Subwoofer

Hey wireless, ok well your fronts can handle a boat load of power & it seems as though your 2807 can output a tad more power than your interested x3000 (110 wpc 2807/105 wpc x3000) so I dont see much of a dramatic improvement in your listening experience....the x4000 on the other hand can outout 125 wpc which, again, I don't really see that much of an improvement especially since you've stated your 2807 has been performing flawlessly. That is my assumption, maybe some of the pro's care to step in here & elaborate a bit further...

Enjoy what you have, don't fall into the "upgrade" trap that most of us here fall into LOLOL...

Carmine.
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post #3072 of 8157 Old 10-21-2013, 10:13 PM
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Bug update on x4000. Sometimes the subwoofer volume option on the main menu will be grayed out even though the option is available on manual speaker adjustment. In the two times I've seen it recently adjusting it manually and then going back to the main menu made the subwoofer option reappear again.
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post #3073 of 8157 Old 10-22-2013, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Bug update on x4000. Sometimes the subwoofer volume option on the main menu will be grayed out even though the option is available on manual speaker adjustment. In the two times I've seen it recently adjusting it manually and then going back to the main menu made the subwoofer option reappear again.

I have only noticed that when the AVR is not locked onto a source. i.e. has not yet detected the input format like when you first start up your BD player etc.
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post #3074 of 8157 Old 10-22-2013, 12:08 AM
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One bug that frequently bothers me on the x4000 is the options for various Network services do not load on the screen sometimes when I click the Network button on my remote. I can browse the options like Media Server, Pandora etc on the tiny display on the AVR, but I have to do a soft reset to see the icons on my TV again. Other menus like Audio/Audyssey or Options appear on the TV, but not the Network icons/choices. Happens quite frequently.
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post #3075 of 8157 Old 10-22-2013, 03:17 AM
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^^
I've never experienced this on my X4000. Do you experience this as well if you are in one of the Network options (eg. Pandora) and then back out of it to the main Network services menu? Have you tried doing a microprocessor reset?

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post #3076 of 8157 Old 10-22-2013, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carminepesce View Post

Hey wireless, ok well your fronts can handle a boat load of power & it seems as though your 2807 can output a tad more power than your interested x3000 (110 wpc 2807/105 wpc x3000) so I dont see much of a dramatic improvement in your listening experience....the x4000 on the other hand can outout 125 wpc which, again, I don't really see that much of an improvement especially since you've stated your 2807 has been performing flawlessly. That is my assumption, maybe some of the pro's care to step in here & elaborate a bit further...

Enjoy what you have, don't fall into the "upgrade" trap that most of us here fall into LOLOL...

Carmine.

Carmine, I appreciate your views & agree that I might be succumbing to the fatal disease of the "upgrade trap"

After reading some great reviews of the X3000 I thought that since the 2807 is 6 year old technology, there might be a great leap in audio quality & user friendly controls.

I first bought the 2807 because it came equipped with HDMI & Audyssey MultEQ - there was a great learning curve from my old Soundcraftsman EQ & McIntosh MC-75 Power Amps.

When I noticed that Denon removed the panel of controls hidden behind the trap door on the front panel, I figured that they must have simplified the operation & setup....

I come from the old school- my first FM tuner in 1964 was a mono Harmon Kardon vacuum tube model with 2 controls.smile.gif

I still have my Marantz 10B tuner on the shelf collecting dust.

Thanks, Jim
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post #3077 of 8157 Old 10-22-2013, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterfram View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Bug update on x4000. Sometimes the subwoofer volume option on the main menu will be grayed out even though the option is available on manual speaker adjustment. In the two times I've seen it recently adjusting it manually and then going back to the main menu made the subwoofer option reappear again.

I have only noticed that when the AVR is not locked onto a source. i.e. has not yet detected the input format like when you first start up your BD player etc.

when I noticed it it was midway through a viewing of a BD. The content was on pause.
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post #3078 of 8157 Old 10-22-2013, 07:03 AM - Thread Starter
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If you were paused then I don't think it's a "bug", or at least not one worth reporting. You can't hold the receiver accountable for what it does when there isn't an active input signal.

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post #3079 of 8157 Old 10-22-2013, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by WIRELESSMAN View Post

I have been offered an older Harmony remote, but didn't think it would control my new Panasonic TV, as it is less than a year old.

You should check out Harmony's site. Unless it is a really really old remote I imagine the offered remote will work just fine. If you look into the new ones I say from experience that the touch screen is way overrated.
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post #3080 of 8157 Old 10-22-2013, 07:19 AM
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I'll report the bugs as I see them along with the workaround I find for my fellow owners - this one is minor. This receiver's software hasn't been the most stable feeling to date - the old 1612 felt more reliable. Your expectations seem a bit low imo as I've never had a receiver that didn't let me change the volume levels while on pause.
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post #3081 of 8157 Old 10-22-2013, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by rec head View Post

You should check out Harmony's site. Unless it is a really really old remote I imagine the offered remote will work just fine. If you look into the new ones I say from experience that the touch screen is way overrated.

Hey Rec, the Harmony is a model 880, maybe 10 years old? It has a small touch screen I think....

I will check the Harmony website to see if there is any data on the Panasonic TV I have, thanks for the info.
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post #3082 of 8157 Old 10-22-2013, 09:58 AM
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I'm almost certain it will. They use an online database to program the remotes.
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post #3083 of 8157 Old 10-22-2013, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by music_to_my_ear View Post

" I would scrap the receiver processing to 24p as it's somewhat pointless as cfraser pointed out above. "

Is the denons vp really that bad? I thought it was a top tier chip?

You misunderstand. It's not that the VP in the AVR is crappy, it's that the damage has already been done before it ever gets to the VP.

Think about what's happening. You are taking the original 480i source off the disc, with unknown cadence (probably 3:2 film but could be true 60i interlaced video, or worse a mix) and then the player is creating a progressive signal and scaling it to 1080p60. Now, this 1080p60 signal comes to the AVR, and you tell the AVR to squish those 60 frames into 24 frames. It doesn't matter how good the VP is in that final step, the deinterlacing has already been done, the scaling has already been done, all it is doing is trying to squish 60 into 24, but the problem is that 60 isn't an even multiple of 24, so the receiver will make decisions about how to squish the frames.... depending on what happened on the way, you could end up with a smooth result or a horrible result with stutters and judder.

The advantage with Blu-ray / HD-DVD is that you can feed a direct progressive 24 frame source to a display that can refresh in a direct multiple of 24 (e.g. 96hz or 120hz) so there is no need to interpolate or throw away frames. You have it in your head that this is "better" so you are trying to force this onto the DVD signals as well, but having it as 24 frames WON'T be better inherently, as there's a lot of stuff that can get messed up in that transition from 480i to 1080p24, and ESPECIALLY so if you have two different devices doing different pieces of the process.

Now, if you could find a player that could do a true "source direct" 480i off the SD DVD, and feed that signal via HDMI directly to the Denon, then the Denon's VP could do the full cadence recognition, deinterlacing, scaling, etc. up to 1080p/24, you'd probably get a better and more consistent result. But the irony is that "source direct" is a somewhat exotic feature, and the players that have it are likely to ALSO have built-in video processing that's as good or even better than the Denon! So if upscaling of SD DVD is really important to you, I'd probably just do some research and find a nice BDP that can do the whole shebang for you and just set it to output 1080p for all sources straight from the disc.

If you want to test what the Denon can do directly, most DVD players have component video output that can do the 480i straight off disc (you may have to disable progressive scan in the player). Then you can feed the 480i component signal to the Denon and have it do a full analog>HDMI conversion with scaling to 1080p/24. That's the cheapest way to fully utilize the Denon's VP while eliminating other variables, although of course you introduce an A/D conversion which in and of itself is an added step.

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post #3084 of 8157 Old 10-22-2013, 11:50 AM
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Does the (free) Denon Remote app work at all with the X4000? I see it's called "abnormal" working here, but I can't even get it to see my AVR (i.e. accept the static IP) even though I can ping it just fine. Waste of time? I was going to try to judge that for myself, but I can't even evaluate it at this stage, though perhaps that says it all. smile.gif Thanks.

music_to_my_ear: batpig gave you the down and dirty of it, after my rather cavalier "OPPO even has problems sometimes" statement before. I'm only mentioning OPPO because "traditionally" they have been at the forefront of handling DVDs well. BDs are so much easier, and players are generally much more equal. But DVDs at 24Hz are a real mixed bag, especially because so many have mixed video sources. And ideally yes, you want a DVDP that does great de-interlacing and does the 1080p/24 conversion all in one, otherwise downstream devices (e.g. your AVR) don't really know what they're dealing with, the original DVD formatting info having been stripped already.

You asked about what DVDs might look OK using the 1080p/24 setting. Any DVD that looks really good already lol...one that was film and properly/nicely transferred...you can tell because it already looks like film and 24Hz will (usually) make it more so. TV shows before roughly 1970 are also a good bet, from film and most look amazingly excellent at 1080p/24 here if they weren't put out slap-dash on DVD like many of the lesser-profile ones were.
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post #3085 of 8157 Old 10-22-2013, 11:58 AM
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The Denon remote app does work with the X4000 on Android and ios. I'm not saying it's a great app but it does work.
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post #3086 of 8157 Old 10-22-2013, 01:51 PM
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Hi guys, I had a quick question for you all. So I have a Denon X1000 and my TV is a Sony KDL-40XBR6. I notice that when I turn my TV on first, and then the receiver after that, my TV would shut off and come back on in a couple of seconds. This is not an issue if I turn the receiver on first and then the TV. All my home theater equipment is connected to a power strip. Do you think I need a surge protector to resolve this issue? Or is it something else?
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post #3087 of 8157 Old 10-22-2013, 02:02 PM
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Is the TV actually turning all the way off or just going blank for a second? If it's just going blank for a few seconds, I would assume it's just the initial HDMI handshake or whatever it's called. I'm obviously an expert at these things wink.gif
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post #3088 of 8157 Old 10-22-2013, 02:35 PM
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I do believe it goes off completed and come back on. But I guess it is possible that the picture just goes blank and comes back. I will confirm tonight.
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post #3089 of 8157 Old 10-22-2013, 02:51 PM
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which one will do this setup a 5.1 HT and another zone for outdoor patio, I was thinking the 2000 or 3000.

Most of the posts here just talk up the 4000, what am i missing.

thks
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post #3090 of 8157 Old 10-22-2013, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
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If all you need is 5.1 + Zone 2 then you can go as low as the basic 7ch models, the E400 (2 yr warranty, regular MultEQ) or X2000 (3 yr warranty, MultEQ XT). If you are willing to drop 100 bucks on a stereo amp you can go to the X1000 (which only has 5 internal amps) and use the Zone 2 pre-outs.

All the models are compared at the beginning of this thread in great detail. As it discusses there, the big advantage of the X3000 (and X4000) is that you can pipe any digital source to Zone 2 as well independently (the lower models can only do digital to Zone 2 if you use All Channel Stereo mode).

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Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

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Denon Avr 2309ci Receiver , Denon Avr4310ci Receiver , Denon , Denon Electronics , Polk Audio Monitor70 Series Ii Floorstanding Loudspeaker , Onkyo Tx Nr626 7 2 Channel Network Audio Video Receiver , Denon Avr E200 , Denon Avr E300 , Denon Avr E400 , Denon Avr X2000 7 1 Channel Home Theater Receiver , Denon Avr X3000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver , Denon Avr X1000 5 1 Channel Home Theater Receiver
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