The 'Official' 2013 Denon "E Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 130 - AVS Forum
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post #3871 of 9197 Old 12-02-2013, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I have never heard of that one before! Does it show the correct surround mode in the app or any other displays (eg browser interface)? I would try a "soft reset" first by unplugging for a few minutes. Weird!!

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post #3872 of 9197 Old 12-02-2013, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tboe77 View Post

batpiglets . . . . hahaha . . . love it!

Are they twins?

No, 2.5 yrs old and 3 months old now. So the damage was spread out tongue.gif

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post #3873 of 9197 Old 12-02-2013, 02:13 PM
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No, 2.5 yrs old and 3 months old now. So the damage was spread out tongue.gif

I got 3 yo daughter and a 3 mo son. I now live my A/V fantasies vicariously through these forums biggrin.gif

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post #3874 of 9197 Old 12-02-2013, 02:19 PM
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Hahaha . . . this will be me very shortly. My daughter is 4, and we were finally getting to the point where I had occasional opportunities to use my gear. She'll even watch a movie with me once in a while.

However, my wife and I are anticipating the birth of our son within the next week or two, so it'll be back to "square one"! biggrin.gif

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post #3875 of 9197 Old 12-02-2013, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

It's important to remember that Audyssey configures for "reference" based on the placement of your speakers/sub and their reaction to your room dynamics and if that's not what you prefer, then you can make any adjustments to suit your "preference."

Yes, Audyssey sets SPLs and delays for reference, but Audyssey's EQ curves are nothing more than Audyssey's Preference. It's their room EQ curve, as well as their low level EQ/Surround enhancement (DEQ) and those are nothing more than what a group of people decided that sounded best.............Preference at it's core definition.


I wanted to comment on this as, with all due respect, your description is somewhat disingenuous. Dismissing the Audyssey reference target curve as "nothing more than a group of people deciding [what sounds best]" is really not accurate, at least not in terms of the connotation I feel is implied by that statement. It is not some arbitrary decision by Audyssey based on what they think sounds good, in the same way that I can say "my preference is for a bright speaker" or "my preference is to run my bass a few dB hot".

As you probably know, the X-curve is the EQ curve STANDARD to which all calibrated movie mixing rooms and theaters are calibrated. The X-curve (like the Audyssey reference curve) is essentially flat with a gradual high frequency roll-off to deal with the differing speaker distances and reverberant sound characteristics of different rooms. The movie industry has agreed upon this common standard so that the spectral balance of a soundtrack will translate as intended by the mixer to a wide variety of rooms. Thus, whether you are in a huge calibrated theater or a smaller dubbing stage, you can be confident that you are generally hearing the soundtrack with the proper tonal/spectral balance.

The goal of the Audyssey calibration is to reproduce this procedure for the home environment. The Audyssey reference curve essentially takes this principle and (like THX RE-EQ before it) translates a film soundtrack to the quite different acoustic characteristics of the typical home listening environment, where you are much closer to the speakers and hearing a higher ratio of direct vs. reflected sound. The goal though is the same -- to have the post-calibration sound come as closely as possible to reproducing the original intent of the soundtrack, i.e. to recreate the REFERENCE standard of the film industry in a home theater environment.

So it is not "preference" in the way you seem to be implying, which to me seems like you are saying it's just the subjective taste of the people at Audyssey; on the contrary, rather than being based on some arbitrary moving target of subjective desire, it is specifically directed at achieving an industry REFERENCE standard for translating a soundtrack to different rooms, based upon Audyssey's database of the acoustical properties of thousands of rooms.

If, after calibration, you then decide to make a "preference" tweak from that baseline (e.g. bumping the subs by 3dB) it is qualitatively different than simply starting blind and tweaking to create a "preference" sounce that is pleasing to you -- because you are starting from a standardized, reference baseline.

(If there is anything that is "preference" about the Audyssey target curve, it is the "BBC dip" at 2kHz, but I'm not sure if that is also incorporated into professional rooms as well)

On a different note, Dynamic EQ is also not really accurately described as "preference at it's [sic] core", at least not the loudness compensation part of it. The point of equal loudness is to emulate the physical properties of human hearing and how it changes at different volume levels. Again, there are industry reference standards for loudness contours (although Dynamic EQ appears to not be precisely based on these ISO published standards). This isn't a "preference" in the sense of "gee, I think this sounds good". It's done by empirical measurement to produce a model of how our ear works, such that tonal balance stays the same regardless of volume. Not just because some people "prefer" it that way or think it "sounded best", but because of the known physical properties of how our ears/brain work.

If anything is "pure preference" it's the surround boost, since that was derived (as you seem to know) by deriving an algorithm based upon the decisions of film mixers listening to their soundtracks at sub-reference volume levels. But this "group of people" deciding what sounded right was the professionals who originally mixed the soundtrack. Audyssey had them adjust the channel faders at different volumes so that the surround envelopment of the original reference SPL was preserved at lower volumes, and then modeled this behavior to create the algorithm for DEQ's surround boost. So while this is "preference" in the literal sense, it's the preference of the guys who made the soundtracks in the first place trying to make it sound "right" again -- again, quite different than what you seem to be implying.
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post #3876 of 9197 Old 12-02-2013, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix64015 View Post

Having an issue with my Denon X4000. Whenever I hold down the sound field buttons on the remote control (the color icons labeled as Movie, Music, etc) the menu comes up on the screen. Then you can scroll up or down to select a sound field. However, the sound field on the TV that is highlighted is NOT the same as the one on the receiver face which is being used. It is off by one.
A little note of the history. They were matched up correctly when I first got the receiver. Then it started doing this. I had other issues with my receiver & sent it in for repair. The HDMI audio board was bad. It was replaced. I got my receiver back & this sound field was working correctly again as was everything else. 2 weeks later it started not matching up again. No other audio issues. I can handle this issue, I just wondered if it's common or others are experiencing it? I really hope I'm not heading down the path of another HDMI board issue. It's a pain in the ass not having your primary receiver available for 2 weeks!!

I just tested this on my x4000 and it did the same thing. What was presented on the AVR display did not match what was shown on the TV screen and was off by one..Interesting!
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post #3877 of 9197 Old 12-02-2013, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Chise View Post

Ask jb smoothie or batpig

I have been having this issue but volume doesn't seem to matter i just got off the phone and the tech said i need to send it in for repair so this is the 3rd case i have heard about this happening to an AVR-X4000 in the past two weeks starting to think there is a bad batch etc... with these units.

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post #3878 of 9197 Old 12-02-2013, 05:26 PM
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Just popping in and saying hi. My new (as of today!) E300 is now hooked up and Audyssey calibration has been set. Loving it! Really makes my speakers pop and I'm 100x happier than I was with my Sony receiver from 2005. Even happier with the discounted price.

Now, on to read 100+ pages of this thread! Cheers.

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post #3879 of 9197 Old 12-02-2013, 05:55 PM
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post #3880 of 9197 Old 12-02-2013, 06:11 PM
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Finally placed an order for the X4000 today. It will pair with my Sherbourn PA 7-350 to drive my future purchase of (3) JTR 228HTs and a JTR Cap S2.

Everything will go in a movie room and will be a huge upgrade from my current Onkyo NR616 and Pioneer Andrew Jones 3.1 setup in the living room.

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post #3881 of 9197 Old 12-02-2013, 06:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnnt29 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix64015 View Post

Having an issue with my Denon X4000. Whenever I hold down the sound field buttons on the remote control (the color icons labeled as Movie, Music, etc) the menu comes up on the screen. Then you can scroll up or down to select a sound field. However, the sound field on the TV that is highlighted is NOT the same as the one on the receiver face which is being used. It is off by one.
A little note of the history. They were matched up correctly when I first got the receiver. Then it started doing this. I had other issues with my receiver & sent it in for repair. The HDMI audio board was bad. It was replaced. I got my receiver back & this sound field was working correctly again as was everything else. 2 weeks later it started not matching up again. No other audio issues. I can handle this issue, I just wondered if it's common or others are experiencing it? I really hope I'm not heading down the path of another HDMI board issue. It's a pain in the ass not having your primary receiver available for 2 weeks!!

I just tested this on my x4000 and it did the same thing. What was presented on the AVR display did not match what was shown on the TV screen and was off by one..Interesting!

Weird. I'll have to test later tonight. While I've never noticed this I never use those buttons/menus to change surround mode. I either use the Denon app or my Harmony, which has older surround mode discrete codes programmed in. In these situations the front panel always shows the correct mode for me.

It might be a bug that has escaped noticed since few people scaly look at the front panel display!

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post #3882 of 9197 Old 12-02-2013, 06:50 PM
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For anyone interested in trying a free 60-day trial subscription to Spotify ....

http://www.giltcity.com/national/spotify

Thanks! I was just debating Spotify vs Slacker with a friend this afternoon. Now I'll get to try his flavor!
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post #3883 of 9197 Old 12-02-2013, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I wanted to comment on this as, with all due respect, your description is somewhat disingenuous. Dismissing the Audyssey reference target curve as "nothing more than a group of people deciding [what sounds best]" is really not accurate, at least not in terms of the connotation I feel is implied by that statement.


We'll have to agree to disagree.

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post #3884 of 9197 Old 12-02-2013, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Weird. I'll have to test later tonight. While I've never noticed this I never use those buttons/menus to change surround mode. I either use the Denon app or my Harmony, which has older surround mode discrete codes programmed in. In these situations the front panel always shows the correct mode for me.

It might be a bug that has escaped noticed since few people scaly look at the front panel display!

That's how I usually access the sound modes as well. Maybe that is why it hasn't been seen before.
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post #3885 of 9197 Old 12-02-2013, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix64015 View Post

Having an issue with my Denon X4000. Whenever I hold down the sound field buttons on the remote control (the color icons labeled as Movie, Music, etc) the menu comes up on the screen. Then you can scroll up or down to select a sound field. However, the sound field on the TV that is highlighted is NOT the same as the one on the receiver face which is being used. It is off by one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnnt29 View Post

I just tested this on my x4000 and it did the same thing. What was presented on the AVR display did not match what was shown on the TV screen and was off by one..Interesting!

Hi matrix64015 and jnnt29, there are two display lines. The first line is your selected sound and the second display line show the next sound option.
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post #3886 of 9197 Old 12-02-2013, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I wanted to comment on this as, with all due respect, your description is somewhat disingenuous. Dismissing the Audyssey reference target curve as "nothing more than a group of people deciding [what sounds best]" is really not accurate, at least not in terms of the connotation I feel is implied by that statement.


We'll have to agree to disagree.

Sure, in the sense that you are wrong and I am right wink.gif

Do you not understand the distinction between a preference and an industry wide standard?

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post #3887 of 9197 Old 12-02-2013, 08:12 PM
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Now I'll get to try his flavor!
That just doesn't sound right 😜
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post #3888 of 9197 Old 12-02-2013, 08:29 PM
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Sure, in the sense that you are wrong and I am right wink.gif

Do you not understand the distinction between a preference and an industry wide standard?

I understand completely. I'm glad you're happy with Audyssey. Enjoy.

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post #3889 of 9197 Old 12-02-2013, 08:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Whether or not you (or I) enjoy Audyssey is irrelevant. The question is whether what Audyssey calibration aims to achieve is "what a group of people decided that sounded best" -- i.e. an arbitrary subjective preference -- or an established reference. The correct answer is the latter -- the goal of Audyssey MultEQ calibration is to have your system hew as closely as possible to the movie industry reference, such that (in theory) if you watch a movie on your home system, it should sound "as intended" by the director and/or mixer.

Now, Audyssey MultEQ (the software) may fail to achieve that goal in a given room. Or it may succeed in achieving that goal, but you may choose to change the results anyway (e.g. boosting the sub level) to suit your personal preference... or you may choose to not use it at all. But that doesn't change the fact that the Audyssey target curve IS aiming for a reference response, not a subjective preference. And when you deviate from that baseline, you and I are both starting from a common REFERENCE starting point.

Aiming for a specific frequency response of the speaker system is no different than calibrating the system volume to a specified SPL, or calibrating a video display so that whites are 6500k color temparature or the primary/secondary color points adhere to a specific standard. With all of the above, the point is to get your personal system as close as possible to a predefined REFERENCE so that the material translates as intended by the content creator. The point is that it's an agreed upon set of common standards -- also known as a "point of reference" (ahem) -- which has already been established by the film industry.

If you calibrate your video display to SMPTE standards, and so do I, then you and I both can be relatively confident that we are seeing close to the same picture in our respective environments. Now, you may decide you don't LIKE those standards, for example you could decide that you prefer a cooler color temp because D65 is too "warm" for your tastes, or maybe you like a wider color gamut than the HD standard because you like it when the colors "pop" more... but you not liking the reference does not make the reference NOT a reference. Sorry.

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post #3890 of 9197 Old 12-02-2013, 09:07 PM
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That just doesn't sound right 😜

Errr....ummmm...uhhhhh eek.giftongue.gif:o
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post #3891 of 9197 Old 12-02-2013, 09:17 PM
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Whether or not you (or I) enjoy Audyssey is irrelevant.

So if Audyssey and their programmers designed the program to "Industry Standards" then they, and only they are correct. Well what about other designers from other companies that use a different approach? I guess they're wrong, because as you know, not everyone can be right. Hell, Audyssey has 2 different curves for the end user to chose based on the end user's PREFERENCE. Audyssey is a nice tool, that is all. Some users like the end result of what the designers of Audyssey intended to accomplish, and some of us (me) don't. Same for all of the other companies. I don't want to get this thread off topic any more than we've already taken it, as there is a whole religious thread, whoops, I mean Audyssey thread that we can debate this on.

I'm out

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post #3892 of 9197 Old 12-02-2013, 10:26 PM - Thread Starter
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No need to put words in my mouth. I never said Audyssey is "correct", and I certainly never said ONLY they are "correct". You seem to be the one projecting some dogma where it doesn't exist, or trying to make it a battle between other systems and Audyssey (or your preference vs Audyssey). I'm simply pointing out that the design goals of Audyssey calibration are not just arbitrary preference, they are to translate reference standards of the film industry to the home environment. You can use this as your goal, you can use it as a baseline reference from which to tweak further, or you can not use it at all - no judgement here. And other systems can have different design goals - cool with me too. But Audyssey calibration is very much an attempt to match a specific, defined reference baseline.
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post #3893 of 9197 Old 12-02-2013, 10:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JChin View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix64015 View Post

Having an issue with my Denon X4000. Whenever I hold down the sound field buttons on the remote control (the color icons labeled as Movie, Music, etc) the menu comes up on the screen. Then you can scroll up or down to select a sound field. However, the sound field on the TV that is highlighted is NOT the same as the one on the receiver face which is being used. It is off by one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnnt29 View Post

I just tested this on my x4000 and it did the same thing. What was presented on the AVR display did not match what was shown on the TV screen and was off by one..Interesting!

Hi matrix64015 and jnnt29, there are two display lines. The first line is your selected sound and the second display line show the next sound option.

I think you are spot on. It's probably just a misunderstanding of how the display reads. I just tested this and it works as expected on my X4000.

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post #3894 of 9197 Old 12-02-2013, 11:04 PM
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If using Graphic EQ in 2ch, does it still incorporate audyssey calibrations or is it "direct?"
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post #3895 of 9197 Old 12-03-2013, 04:21 AM
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wouldn't a measured ruler flat frequency response be the reference target curve? Adding or subtracting anything that's not on the disc would deviate from that reference.

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post #3896 of 9197 Old 12-03-2013, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
So if Audyssey and their programmers designed the program to "Industry Standards" then they, and only they are correct.
If industry standards are the reference, then anyone who designs to those standards is correct.
Quote:
Hell, Audyssey has 2 different curves for the end user to chose based on the end user's PREFERENCE.
The option of user-selectable parameters doesn't diminish the accuracy of the reference standard or of the tool designed to that standard.

Calibrators who calibrate to SMPTE reference standards are correct. But you're always free to change the settings on your display to suit your preference (if you like your greens extra green or your skin tones lobster red). The option of tweaking your displays settings doesn't diminish the accuracy of SMPTE standards or of SMPTE-based calibrations.
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post #3897 of 9197 Old 12-03-2013, 07:18 AM
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thanks for the reply Batpig and the info you pass on to this site, would anyone know if I can connect a denon  3600 as a power amp to the x4000 if so how, - thinking  can i use the pre outs on the 3600 as inputs ? -

 

 thanks

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post #3898 of 9197 Old 12-03-2013, 07:27 AM
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Pre amp outputs are not low level inputs. That won't work. Adding extra channels?

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post #3899 of 9197 Old 12-03-2013, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aussinewbee View Post

thanks for the reply Batpig and the info you pass on to this site, would anyone know if I can connect a denon  3600 as a power amp to the x4000 if so how, - thinking  can i use the pre outs on the 3600 as inputs ? -

 thanks

What you need to do is connect the pre-amp outputs on the X4000 to the analogue inputs on the 3600 (assuming it has them).

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post #3900 of 9197 Old 12-03-2013, 08:27 AM
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No I have an onkyo 3007 at the moment but can't do 3d,i am looking at going back to a denon, 4500 or x4000,thought I could save a few $$$$ and still have the extra power. have not been able to listen to either of these amps yet, would like to here from anyone who has compared them.

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