The 'Official' 2013 Denon "E Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 8694 Old 05-20-2013, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
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The choices you already provided (Energy Take Classic or RC Micro) are both solid entry-level choices but it's hard to make a definitive recommendation without knowing other details...

- how big is the room?
- how big is the budget?
- what is the intended use (e.g. % of music vs. movies vs. games etc)?

Speaker recommendations are more about matching the room and desired use than about "matching" the receiver. The point JD was making above is that, given that you have a smallish room and appear to be on a limited budget, you may be better served getting a lesser receiver and using those funds instead for the speakers. For example, if you are only running a 5.1 setup, the ~$200 you might save getting the X1000 instead of the X2000 could buy you a nicer subwoofer or better speakers. The step up from the X1000 to the X2000 primarily provides two extra amp channels (7.1 instead of 5.1), video conversion/scaling, and an extra HDMI input. If you won't use those extras, then save the money and reallocate it to speakers.

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post #452 of 8694 Old 05-20-2013, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Audyssey LFC

Regarding the Audyssey LFC feature, the following info is reposted from the Marantz AV7005 thread ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by avman09 View Post

I tested frequencies between 36 hz to 160 hz. It appears to be just an attenuator on a sliding scale, something like the old "loudness" thing in reverse? Physics prevails once again. biggrin.gif The following readings were taken with LFC at its default setting of 4. I tried 1 and 7 as well and the results were as expected.

36,40 Hz -35 db

63,71 Hz -21 db

89,100 Hz -16 db

125 Hz -9 db

142.5 Hz,160 Hz -5 db

I did take reading from the other room downstairs but there really was no point because nothing above 71 Hz could be picked up by the RS meter due to the heavy attenuation. This tells me the other night whatever I was listening to did not have much low bass below 125 Hz, as I really did not perceived missing much whether LFC was on or not.


As an additional data point here are more detailed measurement graphs provided by AustinJerry in the 4520 thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Measurement is taken from the Sub1 pre-out.  LFC requires Audyssey to be engaged.  DEQ and DVol are off, of course.  At 20Hz, toggling through LFC values of 1,2,3, and 4 results in a decrease of -15dB, -20dB, -24dB, and -27dB, respectively.  Pretty kind to the neighbors, I suspect.  smile.gif





It's also worth noting that LFC is more than just a simple attenuator -- according to Audyssey it also "restores the perception of low bass with psychoacoustic processing". I did some experimenting with LFC this weekend and I can vouch for its effectiveness in cutting out the "thump" in adjacent rooms. But there definitely also is something to that "psychoacoustic processing" as the perception of diminished bass in the main room isn't anywhere close to what you would expect given the graphs/measurements above. For example, in Jerry's graphs above the attenuation between LFC OFF and LFC Containment 1 (the minimum setting) is on the order of 15dB, which is a huge cut to the bass frequencies. However, when I experimented with LFC on/off at the minimum (containment = 1) level, my subjective perception was that there was only a minimal difference in the quality/quantity of the bass, it certainly didn't sound like a 15dB attenuation. Dialing up the containment obviously increases the perceptual loss of bass, when you get to the max setting (containment = 7) the bass sounds completely neutered.

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post #453 of 8694 Old 05-20-2013, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
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A couple of notes on additional small changes on the X4000 vs. the previous models that I discovered:

1. Found this out when streaming Airplay to my Zone 2 (backyard) speakers this weekend -- there has been yet another minor improvement to this functionality. While there is still an initial "hijack" of the receiver when the Airplay stream starts, syncing Main Zone to Airplay as well as Zone 2, you can now turn Main Zone OFF and Airplay will continue streaming to Zone 2. On the xx13 models, if you turned Main Zone off while streaming Airplay to Zone 2, it would kill the Airplay stream. And of course on the xx12 and xx11 models Airplay can't stream independently to Zone 2 at all.

2. Denon has definitely been working on making the receivers a bit more user friendly -- in addition to the overall enhancements in GUI layout and the Setup Assistant, it was pointed out to me that if you try to click on a grayed out item in the GUI, a little error message pops up explaining why that setting is grayed out. For example, if you are try to click on the "Tone Control" in the Audyssey menu, the text at the bottom of the screen turns yellow and warns you that Tone Control is disabled when Audyssey Dynamic EQ is turned on. If you try to turn on Audyssey DSX, it warns you that DSX is only available if you have wide and/or height speakers connected. Neat!

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post #454 of 8694 Old 05-20-2013, 11:53 AM
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I ordered an X1000 to replace my 1713. I like the reported UI and info button enhancements as well as the 3yr warranty. I will have it up and running by Thursday and report back my impressions.

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post #455 of 8694 Old 05-20-2013, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

As an additional data point here are more detailed measurement graphs provided by AustinJerry in the 4520 thread:
It's also worth noting that LFC is more than just a simple attenuator -- according to Audyssey it also "restores the perception of low bass with psychoacoustic processing". I did some experimenting with LFC this weekend and I can vouch for its effectiveness in cutting out the "thump" in adjacent rooms. But there definitely also is something to that "psychoacoustic processing" as the perception of diminished bass in the main room isn't anywhere close to what you would expect given the graphs/measurements above. For example, in Jerry's graphs above the attenuation between LFC OFF and LFC Containment 1 (the minimum setting) is on the order of 15dB, which is a huge cut to the bass frequencies. However, when I experimented with LFC on/off at the minimum (containment = 1) level, my subjective perception was that there was only a minimal difference in the quality/quantity of the bass, it certainly didn't sound like a 15dB attenuation. Dialing up the containment obviously increases the perceptual loss of bass, when you get to the max setting (containment = 7) the bass sounds completely neutered.

Interesting, that's definitely a useful feature then. How big of a difference did XT32 make compared to XT on the 2113? That’s the main feature that has me wanting to upgrade from the 3311.
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post #456 of 8694 Old 05-20-2013, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Take this with a large grain of salt since I have done very little "critical" listening but I think the X4000 sounds a good bit better with XT32. There is a subtle improvement in overall cohesion/clarity of the system, everything sounds very blended and smooth. But more dramatically (as expected based on specs and the anecdotal reports of others) the bass quality is greatly improved. Any hint of boominess is gone, something which has always been a bit of an issue for me.

Again, no systematic critical evaluations here, but here's an example... I have a playlist in iTunes called "reference" in which I store about 30 songs that are high quality and with which I am very familiar. I use these songs as demo tracks when I make tweaks to the system since they have a variety of styles, and good dynamic range and are quite familiar. In the past, I always had Reference Level Offset for Dyn EQ set to 10dB to cut out boom from the bass when listening to music. I did some listening to a few of these songs yesterday, specifically a couple with good bass, and I immediately noticed that the bass wasn't boomy at all, it was smooth and tight. Then I realized that -- since of course I am using a new receiver -- the Ref Offset setting was back at the default "0dB"!! So even with the X4000 "handicapped" vs. the 2113 by the Ref Offset, the bass still sounded smoother and less boomy. These are songs that would have been very bloated on my prior receivers without using the Ref Offset to tame Dyn EQ a bit, but on the X4000 with Dyn EQ running "untamed" the bass still wasn't boomy.
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post #457 of 8694 Old 05-20-2013, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

The choices you already provided (Energy Take Classic or RC Micro) are both solid entry-level choices but it's hard to make a definitive recommendation without knowing other details...

- how big is the room?
- how big is the budget?
- what is the intended use (e.g. % of music vs. movies vs. games etc)?

Speaker recommendations are more about matching the room and desired use than about "matching" the receiver. The point JD was making above is that, given that you have a smallish room and appear to be on a limited budget, you may be better served getting a lesser receiver and using those funds instead for the speakers. For example, if you are only running a 5.1 setup, the ~$200 you might save getting the X1000 instead of the X2000 could buy you a nicer subwoofer or better speakers. The step up from the X1000 to the X2000 primarily provides two extra amp channels (7.1 instead of 5.1), video conversion/scaling, and an extra HDMI input. If you won't use those extras, then save the money and reallocate it to speakers.

Hey thanks! My apt is about 400 sq ft. I live in NY after all. The new set up will be for watching movies and gaming (PS4 and Xbox). I want to spend around $500-600 for a speaker system, I think thats reasonable–
dont want to blow the neighbors away! : )
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post #458 of 8694 Old 05-20-2013, 01:12 PM
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Cool. Thanks for the info, batpig!

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post #459 of 8694 Old 05-20-2013, 04:00 PM
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Cool. Thanks for the info, batpig!

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post #460 of 8694 Old 05-20-2013, 04:12 PM
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Thanks Batpig. I need to order one soon! I’ve been waiting for XT32 a long time.
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post #461 of 8694 Old 05-20-2013, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Take this with a large grain of salt since I have done very little "critical" listening but I think the X4000 sounds a good bit better with XT32. There is a subtle improvement in overall cohesion/clarity of the system, everything sounds very blended and smooth. But more dramatically (as expected based on specs and the anecdotal reports of others) the bass quality is greatly improved. Any hint of boominess is gone, something which has always been a bit of an issue for me.

Again, no systematic critical evaluations here, but here's an example... I have a playlist in iTunes called "reference" in which I store about 30 songs that are high quality and with which I am very familiar. I use these songs as demo tracks when I make tweaks to the system since they have a variety of styles, and good dynamic range and are quite familiar. In the past, I always had Reference Level Offset for Dyn EQ set to 10dB to cut out boom from the bass when listening to music. I did some listening to a few of these songs yesterday, specifically a couple with good bass, and I immediately noticed that the bass wasn't boomy at all, it was smooth and tight. Then I realized that -- since of course I am using a new receiver -- the Ref Offset setting was back at the default "0dB"!! So even with the X4000 "handicapped" vs. the 2113 by the Ref Offset, the bass still sounded smoother and less boomy. These are songs that would have been very bloated on my prior receivers without using the Ref Offset to tame Dyn EQ a bit, but on the X4000 with Dyn EQ running "untamed" the bass still wasn't boomy.

This is good information indeed. All the more reason to upgrade or buy from the get go to XT 32
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post #462 of 8694 Old 05-20-2013, 05:57 PM
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I found a thorough Denon X-1000 review. It's in German, so hopefully you use Chrome or another browser that can translate the page:

http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2013/denon_avr_x1000.shtml

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post #463 of 8694 Old 05-20-2013, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

I found a thorough Denon X-1000 review. It's in German, so hopefully you use Chrome or another browser that can translate the page:

http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2013/denon_avr_x1000.shtml

Just use http://translate.google.com/

Then it translated via this resulting link smile.gif

I like the reviews that areadvd.de does, very descriptive, lots of images. cool.gif

Here they have also done a review of the AVR-X2000 also.

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post #464 of 8694 Old 05-20-2013, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

Just use http://translate.google.com/

Then it translated via this resulting link smile.gif

I like the reviews that areadvd.de does, very descriptive, lots of images. cool.gif

Here they have also done a review of the AVR-X2000 also.

Thanks for the help! cool.gif

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post #465 of 8694 Old 05-20-2013, 06:48 PM
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So contemplating ordering the x1000 or x2000?

I know the differences, and looking for a little help.

I am staying 5.1 for a while, 4k doubt ill get for a few years anyway.

The question I have is the 80 watt channels a lot weaker then the 95 watts?

I do about 75% movies and 25% movies. The only thing is I do a lot of college party hosting. And the music can get quite loud, would that be a big difference?

I have Infinity Primus 363 towers if it helps!

Thanks!
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post #466 of 8694 Old 05-20-2013, 06:50 PM
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Those are very easy speakers to drive, on average only requiring < 5W/CH so no, the power difference between the two models won't matter. Select the model that best meets your feature and input requirements.
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post #467 of 8694 Old 05-20-2013, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
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The important thing to understand is that power is not linear, it's logarithmic. A 10db increase requires 10x as much power. So even though 95 is about 20% more than 80 if you we're just doing linear arithmetic, when you are talking about power it's a difference of about ONE decibel in MAX output.
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post #468 of 8694 Old 05-20-2013, 07:02 PM
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Thanks guys

2 more questions

1) Does it do HDMI pass thu to use tv speakers still? Saw the HDMI Standby passthrough, is that the same?

2) Does it upconvert 480 analog to 1080? Love me some N64 mario kart?

Thansks
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post #469 of 8694 Old 05-20-2013, 09:49 PM - Thread Starter
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1. Yep
2. X1000 doesn't have video conversion/scaling, the X2000 does.

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post #470 of 8694 Old 05-20-2013, 09:58 PM
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Your TV will up-convert all incoming signals to its native resolution, which I'm assuming is 1080p in your case. No need to have a receiver do it unless you have a very old TV that has an inferior video processor.

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post #471 of 8694 Old 05-21-2013, 06:49 AM
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Got my X4000 in last night! FYI, my listening area leaves much to be desired, as it's an open floor plan--TV wall, side wall to yard, back open to kitchen and breakfast area, and other side is a half wall open to the dining room. This is my HT:
  • X4000 (replacing my Denon AVR-2805)
  • Front towers: B&W DM 603 S3
  • Center: LCR600 S3
  • Sub: ASW600
  • Surrounds: 2x DS3

Got everything hooked up, fired it up and performed the Audyssey calibration. Kids were asleep, wife got really annoyed, but in all honesty, with a 4 and 1 year old, that was the only time I could do it with silence (and they didn't wake up, so no harm done). I don't really have 8 places to sit and listen, so I only did 6 points of calibration (wasn't sure if I should "make up" places to sit just for calibration purposes). Started up Pirates of the Caribbean on Blu-ray b/c that's what was already in, and...WOW. All I can say is WOW!

I thought I heard a significant difference in the sound. So much so, that I was convinced I was just making it up--the placebo effect. So, I asked my wife, "Do you notice a difference in the sound?" She said yes. I kept listening. I was still aounded. I asked again, "Really, you can hear a noticeable difference?" And she said "So I noticed it immediately." She was on her phone and not really paying a lot of attention, and she doesn't care so much about the sound (or watching HD programming...SD is fine with her), and yet she noticed a difference right away!

LOVE my new X4000!

Next is to get my Zone 2 hooked up for my back yard, then monitor 2!
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post #472 of 8694 Old 05-21-2013, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thephatp View Post

I don't really have 8 places to sit and listen, so I only did 6 points of calibration (wasn't sure if I should "make up" places to sit just for calibration purposes).

If I remember right...you still use all 8 points in the calibration even if you don't have 8 seats. Give a quick read in the Audyssey forum. I think there is a sticky that gives some tips.

Good to hear how much you like it. Mine was delivered yesterday as well but it will have to sit until Friday. frown.gif

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post #473 of 8694 Old 05-21-2013, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
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If I remember right...you still use all 8 points in the calibration even if you don't have 8 seats. Give a quick read in the Audyssey forum. I think there is a sticky that gives some tips.

Good to hear how much you like it. Mine was delivered yesterday as well but it will have to sit until Friday. frown.gif

Good to know. I'll give it another run soon with 8 points. But I truly am amazed at the difference in sound. Sorry to hear that you have to wait. frown.gif

I'm also trying to decide if it's worth me using the pre-outs for my surrounds and center to feed into my old 2805. Not sure it'll make much of a difference, though.
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post #474 of 8694 Old 05-21-2013, 07:41 AM
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For best results in an Audyssey calibration, the maximum # of measurements should be used. The first one should be taken from the main listening position. The rest do not need to correspond with specific seats, just move the mic around the room. The last poster was correct, the Audyssey thread has an excellent guide on how to perform the calibration for best results.

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post #475 of 8694 Old 05-21-2013, 08:32 AM
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The current generation of the Audyssey FAQ, 101 and guidelines are available at http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/51750#post_21782993

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post #476 of 8694 Old 05-21-2013, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tboe77 View Post

For best results in an Audyssey calibration, the maximum # of measurements should be used. The first one should be taken from the main listening position. The rest do not need to correspond with specific seats, just move the mic around the room. The last poster was correct, the Audyssey thread has an excellent guide on how to perform the calibration for best results.

I believe ideally you run all 8 on the main couch seating area. Of course all seating is different. I run 6 on all 3 couch seats (front and back of seat) starting with the center seat back of cushion position as the MLP. This is the most important. Then do the other 5 of the front and back of the seats. The last two between the center and left/right cushions in the center

Look up the fact on the audyssey thread for placement.
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post #477 of 8694 Old 05-21-2013, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by thephatp View Post

Got my X4000 in last night! FYI, my listening area leaves much to be desired, as it's an open floor plan--TV wall, side wall to yard, back open to kitchen and breakfast area, and other side is a half wall open to the dining room. This is my HT:
  • X4000 (replacing my Denon AVR-2805)
  • Front towers: B&W DM 603 S3
  • Center: LCR600 S3
  • Sub: ASW600
  • Surrounds: 2x DS3

Got everything hooked up, fired it up and performed the Audyssey calibration. Kids were asleep, wife got really annoyed, but in all honesty, with a 4 and 1 year old, that was the only time I could do it with silence (and they didn't wake up, so no harm done). I don't really have 8 places to sit and listen, so I only did 6 points of calibration (wasn't sure if I should "make up" places to sit just for calibration purposes). Started up Pirates of the Caribbean on Blu-ray b/c that's what was already in, and...WOW. All I can say is WOW!

I thought I heard a significant difference in the sound. So much so, that I was convinced I was just making it up--the placebo effect. So, I asked my wife, "Do you notice a difference in the sound?" She said yes. I kept listening. I was still aounded. I asked again, "Really, you can hear a noticeable difference?" And she said "So I noticed it immediately." She was on her phone and not really paying a lot of attention, and she doesn't care so much about the sound (or watching HD programming...SD is fine with her), and yet she noticed a difference right away!

LOVE my new X4000!

Next is to get my Zone 2 hooked up for my back yard, then monitor 2!

Awesome. I too feel it's best to really test Audyssey with 5.1 multichannel content over just two channel. It did a great job on my surrounds and subwoofer and I'm only still on XT still. Sounds much more seamless between speakers. Before I ran it my surrounds were a bit bloated and boomy since they are mounted on the wall, but after running XT, their sound is much closer to the front speakers now.
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post #478 of 8694 Old 05-21-2013, 09:37 AM
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Hi there!
I returned the new Sony STR-DN1030 after a few days because of the very slow HDMI switching and crappy OSD. I picked up a AVR-E400 and thanks to batpig's wealth of information I was able to tweak it and got it sounding great.

Now I really like what I see with the X3000 and the InstaPrevue, but I have a few questions. I have a 47" LED, how big and useful would the single image be? Watching batpig's video it does not appear that the video is real time, but refreshed every second. How good is it for keeping an eye on the game while watching a movie or playing a video game? Also the zone 2 HDMI video interest me...did I read right that InstaPrevue is available on zone 2?

I may return this E400 and pick up the X3000, but are those features with it? Is the sound any better?


Thanks a bunch!
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post #479 of 8694 Old 05-21-2013, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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The video is real time, remember that's an iPhone video so it's choppier than real life.

I have a 50" plasma and I think the PIP window wouldn't really be sufficient for actually WATCHING the game, but you could see if something is happening and swap over. It's basically the same size as any other PIP type thing in the "single image" mode, if you've ever used the PIP on your cable/sat box you should get the idea.

InstaPrevue is NOT available on Zone 2, not sure where you think you heard that. Zone2 HDMI output is a simple matrix switch passthrough, absolutely no processing occurs, it just flows through.

Any of the XT equipped models will sounds slightly better than the E400 because it only has regular MultEQ. Personally, I wouldn't make the switch JUST for InstaPrevue, it's kind of cool but I don't know if it's several hundred dollars cool. But if you will legitimately utilize the greatly enhanced multizone capabilities of the X3000, and then you throw in the XT Audyssey, the 3rd year of warranty, and some other goodies... it might be worth it. But that's up to you really. If you have a fairly basic setup (only a few HDMI devices and limited multizone needs) it might not be worth it.

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post #480 of 8694 Old 05-21-2013, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Personally, I wouldn't make the switch JUST for InstaPrevue, it's kind of cool but I don't know if it's several hundred dollars cool.

InstaPrevue is nice, I'll give you that. But when I'm looking at other sources, my DTV feed in PIP is very laggy. I had it on ESPN last night during the ballgame, just to try it out, and it was very jerky. Did anyone else experience this? I don't really care much, since, like Batpig said, it's really too small to "watch" anyway, more just curious.

Also, I love not having to switch separate video and audio inputs. It's so nice to just be able to use the source button without macros (again, my 2805 didn't have HDMI, so I had video either going directly to my TV via HDMI, or components coming into the receiver, and optical audio separate to the receiver).
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

... and then you throw in the XT Audyssey, the 3rd year of warranty, and some other goodies... it might be worth it.

I see the warranty mentioned a lot. The Denon 2805 was the first (and only) receiver I've owned (until now, with the X4000), and I've had it for 6 or 7 year without so much as a hiccup. It's been incredible. Since that's my only experience, I'm curious--do people generally need the warranty?
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