The 'Official' 2013 Denon "E Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 247 - AVS Forum
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post #7381 of 8744 Old 05-10-2014, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by stkittsblaster View Post

I don't know about Focals but my X2000 drives my Paradigm Monitor 11s in 5.0 quite efficiently. And that's without having a sub to take the load off the towers.

Do the Paradigms also drop to the 3-ohm range in some parts of the spectrum? That's the context in which I was asking whether anyone thought there might be issues with the X2000 driving the Focals.

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post #7382 of 8744 Old 05-10-2014, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by KevinG View Post

Well, I received my x4000 last evening.

Here's the back story:
This x4000 is replacing my Yamaha RX-A3000 in my theater room. The speakers are as follows:

Front soundstage:
L&R: Aperion Verus Grand Towers
Center: Aperion Verus Grand Center
Height L&R: Aperion Verus Grand Bookshelve

Surround Side, and Surround Back:
EMotiva Di-pole/Bi-pole (x4)

Sub:
SVS PC13 Ultra

External Amplification:
Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature (405wpc x 5) [used for the front soundstage]

Extra:
Behringer: FEEDBACK DESTROYER PRO DSP1124P (since the Yamaha's YPAO room correction can't deal with bass)
U-Mik1 calibrated by Cross Spectrum
REW
The beginnings of some serious room treatments

Here's the front of the room, with the screen down, before the bass-trap was added


And here it is with the trap added [the trap is 14' by 7'8" by 17" deep] (only difference now from when this picture was taken is that the front heights are pointed at the MLP)


And here's a look at the back, just for completeness:


The Yamaha was/is doing a fine job, combined with the Behringer. But, since I just committed to treating the room, I thought it made sense to also have the better(best?) room correction in there as well. I planned to finish all the treatments first, but I couldn't pass up a deal on the x4000, the room treatments will continue shortly.

I installed it last night, did 4 firmware resets, and went through the setup, initially telling it to skip Audyssey. First impression. Wow. Did my Yamaha really sound that bad? Wait. Hold on. I'm being wowed by the fact that there is no correction, so all that warmness and beautiful full rich bass won't be there once my SPL curve is flattened. But, really, it's been quite some time since I've listened to the room uncorrected, and it really sounds quite nice (maybe the big huge trap is helping somewhat).

Run Audyssey setup, telling it about my external amp first, 8 positions, on a mic stand, all centered pretty tightly around the center of the MLP.

Ah, so now it sounds like the Yamaha did. Maybe a touch better, but I haven't done any critical listening quite yet. But, for the most part, not a big huge "Omigod, what have I been missing?" moment. Then I put on a movie. Still, not a huge difference, although it is certainly different (probably because of the modes that I had to use to get the front heights to work is different on the Denon vs the Yamaha). Again, I'll have to spend more time listening, and figuring out which mode sounds best. I initially seemed to have lost a bit of bass thump during explosions. But, here's what jumped out at me immediately upon movie viewing. I REALLY REALLY miss the Yamaha's dialog lift. Yes, Audyssey seems to have done a fantastic job of giving me crystal clear dialog, but now it is very obviously localized from the bottom of the screen. Dialog lift was effectively designed for my setup, and it did a fantastic job. I'm going to see if I can get used to this.

Next, the remote, and the onscreen GUI. I'm surprised to say this, but I think Yamaha wins here. I haven't had much time with the Denon yet (time to read the manual, I guess), but I liked the fact that once the "menu" was up on the Yamaha, I could do just about anything. On the Denon, it seems, I can't change between, for example DTS: Neo and Dolby without hitting a different key on the remote (and you have to hold it down?). I do really like the "Info" button on the Denon though.

I plan to do some more listening, and tweaking, and finally some REW measuring to see how much better Audyssey did compared to the Yammie/Behringer pair. And, I'm waiting for my OC703 shipment to come in to start building more treatments. Wish me luck. :-)

Kevin, just some thoughts. That room is sweet first of all smile.gif

But it looks like a nightmare for bass with those openings onto other (big) rooms. I reckon that is why you are going for treatments. If you only run one sub, you really should consider running at least two in a room that size. I have a similarly hard room to get a good bass response in and three subs barely do it.

Also, the dialog lift seems like a work around for a center channel that is placed too low. You should try to get an AT screen and put it level with the other tweeters if possible, or angle it upward a bit.

Also, run Audyssey several times until it sounds right for you, it didn't sound good for me until I did it quite a few times, experimenting with different mic positions. Also, if you go the multiple subs route, do consider a mini DSP, it could replace your Behringer, and do so much more, it is a rockin' piece of kit.

Good luck!
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post #7383 of 8744 Old 05-11-2014, 03:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McStyvie View Post

Kevin, just some thoughts. That room is sweet first of all smile.gif

But it looks like a nightmare for bass with those openings onto other (big) rooms. I reckon that is why you are going for treatments. If you only run one sub, you really should consider running at least two in a room that size. I have a similarly hard room to get a good bass response in and three subs barely do it.

Also, the dialog lift seems like a work around for a center channel that is placed too low. You should try to get an AT screen and put it level with the other tweeters if possible, or angle it upward a bit.

Also, run Audyssey several times until it sounds right for you, it didn't sound good for me until I did it quite a few times, experimenting with different mic positions. Also, if you go the multiple subs route, do consider a mini DSP, it could replace your Behringer, and do so much more, it is a rockin' piece of kit.

Good luck!

Thanks! Currently there is only one SVS-Ultra sub, but it seems to do a remarkable job with filling the room with bass. It can easily be overkill. If you are talking about using more than one sub to make it easier to get rid of nulls, then, yes, I completely agree...In fact, that's the primary reason why I got the Denon x4000...Because I wanted to be prepared just in case I end up with two subs.

Dialog lift is exactly what you describe. If your screen isn't AT, you end up with the center at the bottom of the screen. With a screen this big, that can be quite a ways from the "center"...or, even far from the L&R tweeter height. Tons of people have this same set up. And they deal with it. I just got completely spoiled by the Yamaha. It seems like a simple idea, so I'm surprised other AVRs don't have the feature. There's no switching out the screen now...that's for sure. Way too expensive, and, as it stands now, there's absolutely no room behind the screen anyway (I'd have to disassemble the bass trap in order to get the center speaker back there). I'm spending more time with it the way it is, and trying to ignore the fact that the dialog is lower than it used to be.

I'm hoping to get some time today to do some movie watching to see if Audyssey is making me happy. I also plan to get an REW measurement to see what it has done.

The Behringer is in the storage room now...I'm hoping to not need it with the Denon X4000...but the REW measurements will tell me for sure. Is the miniDSP really that much better than Audyssey XT32?
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post #7384 of 8744 Old 05-11-2014, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Chise View Post

I see Denon is coming out with some new receivers that are Hdmi 2,0

Most likely all AVRs released in 2014 will be HDMI 2.0 which will include Denon and Marantz.

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post #7385 of 8744 Old 05-11-2014, 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post

I hate to be so inconsistent, but I just plugged in my prior X1000 to compare it to the new X2000, and it made the same pop-pop-pop noise through the speakers as the volume was adjusted up and down. And that noise is produced with both digital and analog inputs, and content from external devices (e.g. Bluray player) and internally processed by the AVR (e.g. internet radio). It's easiest to hear if you're relatively close to the speakers and using something like piano music. So my best guess is this is normal. It's not a huge deal, my concern was mostly because I was concerned it suggested some sort of defect, not because the noise was that annoying.

I wonder if others can replicate this? If you stand a few feet from one of your speakers, and have something like piano music playing, do you hear a pop-pop-pop sound with each decibel increase or decrease, scaling up and down with the volume, e.g. you can't hear it at low volumes and it gets louder at higher volumes?

The good news is it seems like I don't need to exchange my X2000 for being defective. The bad news is the popping effect is a little annoying. But I'm not sufficiently annoyed by it to return the X2000 and try some other AVR.

Although apparently normal with your current wiring and speakers, this is not normal.

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post #7386 of 8744 Old 05-11-2014, 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted by KevinG View Post

Thanks! Currently there is only one SVS-Ultra sub, but it seems to do a remarkable job with filling the room with bass. It can easily be overkill. If you are talking about using more than one sub to make it easier to get rid of nulls, then, yes, I completely agree...In fact, that's the primary reason why I got the Denon x4000...Because I wanted to be prepared just in case I end up with two subs.

Dialog lift is exactly what you describe. If your screen isn't AT, you end up with the center at the bottom of the screen. With a screen this big, that can be quite a ways from the "center"...or, even far from the L&R tweeter height. Tons of people have this same set up. And they deal with it. I just got completely spoiled by the Yamaha. It seems like a simple idea, so I'm surprised other AVRs don't have the feature. There's no switching out the screen now...that's for sure. Way too expensive, and, as it stands now, there's absolutely no room behind the screen anyway (I'd have to disassemble the bass trap in order to get the center speaker back there). I'm spending more time with it the way it is, and trying to ignore the fact that the dialog is lower than it used to be.

I'm hoping to get some time today to do some movie watching to see if Audyssey is making me happy. I also plan to get an REW measurement to see what it has done.

The Behringer is in the storage room now...I'm hoping to not need it with the Denon X4000...but the REW measurements will tell me for sure. Is the miniDSP really that much better than Audyssey XT32?

Ok, probably just have to get used to it then with it being a bit lower.

Let me just say that I preferred the Mult EQ(Denon 2309) + Mini DSP to XT32 alone. I wouldn't recommend just using the mini dsp and no Audyssey, because Audyssey does so much more than just Bass.

But the combination of the two is unbeatable IMO, and Mini DSP is an excellent piece of kit for hardly any money at all, that I think no set up should be without.

Also, it allows you to have 4 subs with a 2 SW out AVR like the X4000 smile.gif

Am curious to see your response in your room with some REW measurements. I reckon only a couple seats are smooth, if that.
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post #7387 of 8744 Old 05-11-2014, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by McStyvie View Post

Am curious to see your response in your room with some REW measurements. I reckon only a couple seats are smooth, if that.

How would you define smooth? +-5db 20Hz-300Hz?

For now, I'm only focusing on the MLP. There isn't another member of the family that can tell the difference. :-)
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post #7388 of 8744 Old 05-11-2014, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post

I hate to be so inconsistent, but I just plugged in my prior X1000 to compare it to the new X2000, and it made the same pop-pop-pop noise through the speakers as the volume was adjusted up and down. And that noise is produced with both digital and analog inputs, and content from external devices (e.g. Bluray player) and internally processed by the AVR (e.g. internet radio). It's easiest to hear if you're relatively close to the speakers and using something like piano music. So my best guess is this is normal. It's not a huge deal, my concern was mostly because I was concerned it suggested some sort of defect, not because the noise was that annoying.

I wonder if others can replicate this? If you stand a few feet from one of your speakers, and have something like piano music playing, do you hear a pop-pop-pop sound with each decibel increase or decrease, scaling up and down with the volume, e.g. you can't hear it at low volumes and it gets louder at higher volumes?

The good news is it seems like I don't need to exchange my X2000 for being defective. The bad news is the popping effect is a little annoying. But I'm not sufficiently annoyed by it to return the X2000 and try some other AVR.


Yes, I have noticed this too when adjusting the volume up and down. It either only happens sometimes for me, or I only notice it some of the time. It is generally not very loud and sounds more to me like a bit of static, rather than a pop but as soon as you stop adjusting the volume it goes away, so it never really concerned me. I too have the x2000.

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post #7389 of 8744 Old 05-11-2014, 11:35 AM
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Should I be able to play music from a external drive powered by the USB port? I put some flac files on a thumb drive and it works fine. I can play those files if I plug in an externally powered 1TB drive into the USB port, but when I use a 320G seagate external drive the Denon doesn't see the files. Any suggestions?

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post #7390 of 8744 Old 05-11-2014, 01:02 PM
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^^
Is it formatted as FAT-32?

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post #7391 of 8744 Old 05-11-2014, 01:14 PM
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At first it was ntfs and when it failed I formatted it as exfat and still had no luck.

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post #7392 of 8744 Old 05-11-2014, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Although apparently normal with your current wiring and speakers, this is not normal.

Hmm. I'm hard-pressed to diagnose it, especially since it happens both with content fed by the Bluray player and content that the X1000 and X2000 pull directly off the network. I did notice last night that it doesn't happen with all content, i.e. it depends on the frequencies present in whatever's being played. It's very noticeable with solo piano music (e.g. J.S. Bach Goldberg Variations, Well Tempered Clavier, or French Suites). During the silent parts of tracks, adjusting the volume doesn't generate any popping/clicking noises. I played some solo harpsichord music last night and absolutely no pop-pop-pop sound was perceptible when the volume was adjusted up and down. With busier sound, e.g. movie sound tracks, it's sometimes perceptible, sometimes not.

So my guess is it has to do with how the AVRs are processing the sound, there's some interaction in the AVR between the processing and the volume change (it happens in all processing modes, i.e. movie, game, stereo, and direct, though it might be a little more noticeable in the stereo mode). I suppose the speakers and wiring could be contributing somehow, though the AVR must be playing a role. For what it's worth, the same wiring and speakers, at least the towers, certainly didn't do this with my old NAD two-channel integrated amp.

During a prior google, I found a bunch of people reporting similar issues with Denon and other AVRs, but right now this is the only one I'm finding:
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/46815-denon-1802-clicktickcracklepop-noise-when-volume-turned-updown/

Benq W1070 projector w/ Chief RSM mount with custom interface bracket
119" Da-Lite Cinema Contour with High-Contrast (gray) Da-Mat screen
Denon X2000 receiver fed by Panasonic DMP-BDT210 Bluray player
Focal Chorus 700-series towers and center, JMLab Tantal 500-series bookshelf rears
Rythmik FV15HP sub
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post #7393 of 8744 Old 05-11-2014, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ferl View Post

At first it was ntfs and when it failed I formatted it as exfat and still had no luck.

It needs to be formatted as either FAT-16 or FAT-32, according to the manual. I just tried it with an external hard drive formatted as FAT-32, and it worked without a hitch.

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post #7394 of 8744 Old 05-11-2014, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post

Hmm. I'm hard-pressed to diagnose it, especially since it happens both with content fed by the Bluray player and content that the X1000 and X2000 pull directly off the network. I did notice last night that it doesn't happen with all content, i.e. it depends on the frequencies present in whatever's being played. It's very noticeable with solo piano music (e.g. J.S. Bach Goldberg Variations, Well Tempered Clavier, or French Suites). During the silent parts of tracks, adjusting the volume doesn't generate any popping/clicking noises. I played some solo harpsichord music last night and absolutely no pop-pop-pop sound was perceptible when the volume was adjusted up and down. With busier sound, e.g. movie sound tracks, it's sometimes perceptible, sometimes not.

So my guess is it has to do with how the AVRs are processing the sound, there's some interaction in the AVR between the processing and the volume change (it happens in all processing modes, i.e. movie, game, stereo, and direct, though it might be a little more noticeable in the stereo mode). I suppose the speakers and wiring could be contributing somehow, though the AVR must be playing a role. For what it's worth, the same wiring and speakers, at least the towers, certainly didn't do this with my old NAD two-channel integrated amp.

During a prior google, I found a bunch of people reporting similar issues with Denon and other AVRs, but right now this is the only one I'm finding:
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/46815-denon-1802-clicktickcracklepop-noise-when-volume-turned-updown/

I've sold and installed 40 or 50 current generation Denon and Marantz AVR's and have never heard what you described.

Does it do this from the remote volume control? The volume knob? Both? What speakers?

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post #7395 of 8744 Old 05-11-2014, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Grooms View Post

I've sold and installed 40 or 50 current generation Denon and Marantz AVR's and have never heard what you described.

Does it do this from the remote volume control? The volume knob? Both? What speakers?

Yep, both remote and volume knob. Speakers are Focal Chorus fronts and JMLab Tantal rears, clicking/popping noise comes through all of them (in surround sound, anyway). It's very strange.

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post #7396 of 8744 Old 05-11-2014, 04:07 PM
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And you've had 2 different current generation Denon AVR's with the same symptoms?

If not I'd say return it as defective and I'm very slow to pull that trigger

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post #7397 of 8744 Old 05-11-2014, 04:37 PM
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And you've had 2 different current generation Denon AVR's with the same symptoms?

If not I'd say return it as defective and I'm very slow to pull that trigger

Yep, both an X1000 and an X2000. For what it's worth, it's the sort of thing one can miss if not looking for it on a lot of content. I didn't notice it on the X1000 at first. But with something like piano music, and running the volume up or down, the series of clicks/pops with each decibel rise or fall is pretty hard to miss.

It happens with both digital and analog inputs, e.g. the piano music can be played off a CD and fed via HDMI from the Bluray player, or streamed off internet radio by the AVR itself, or played off an analog connection from an iPod dock, or played through the digital USB connection off that iPod--though in that last case, the only way to get sound is to select content onscreen, if you use the mode that lets you select content on the iPod, it's silent, i.e. no music plays). But it does seem to depend on the frequency spectrum of the content, piano music seems to be particular susceptible to it (different albums, baroque and modern, so it has nothing to do with individual recordings), but with baroque harpsichord music (which would seem to have about the same frequency spectrum as piano represented), I can't make it click/pop while raising or lowering the volume. For what it's worth, Focals are fairly bright speakers, and that does exacerbate the clicking/popping. But the clicking/popping is there regardless, even if the speakers do slightly accentuate it.

Really odd. I don't like things I can't explain!

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post #7398 of 8744 Old 05-11-2014, 05:32 PM
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^ I have heard it with an X4000 too. Don't remember the exact circumstances*, but like it was for you, I happened to be very close to a speaker when adjusting the volume, normally I'm not (and they are much less sensitive speakers than most use for HT). It is a very very faint "tick" (not really a pop) that is often heard with digital volume controls. I also recall hearing it years ago when I experimented with an Oppo BDP, using the digital volume control (never actually use that, was just a test). I can't hear this noise from the X4000 under any normal-use circumstances, sit ~8' from the speakers. The relays are about 1000X louder. smile.gif

*Edit: Oh yeah, you were talking about program material: in my case, when I heard the ticks, there was no actual source sound. I was probably hooked up to a laptop via HDMI while running REW. REW was idling, and I was at the X4000 turning the volume knob. I do remember that part...it's really the only time I'm near a speaker when the AVR is on. Also, the AVR volume is quite loud when I do REW (-9dB).
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post #7399 of 8744 Old 05-11-2014, 05:55 PM
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Really odd. I don't like things I can't explain!

I hear ya. Things like that annoy me to no end...

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post #7400 of 8744 Old 05-11-2014, 07:32 PM
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It needs to be formatted as either FAT-16 or FAT-32, according to the manual. I just tried it with an external hard drive formatted as FAT-32, and it worked without a hitch.

Thanks. I see that now in the manual. I was looking on page 51 and 36, but the format information was on page 50. I thought I did the RTFM thing, but I missed it.

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post #7401 of 8744 Old 05-11-2014, 08:03 PM
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Sorry guys I checked and checked and tried some things but haven't found my exact case. Just bought a refurbished E300 and during initial setup the sound didn't work with directv/box or PS3. Setup just like they said. HDMI from Epson 3020 projector to ARC HDMI on Denon. Then box to CBL/SAT just like your supposed to. I did a manual reset, a network reset, and then downloaded newest firmware while connected to box upstairs on a Sony tv and afterwards tested it on that tv and the sound still didn't work with different TV and different Box. I don't get it. I totally expected it to work on other TV but nothing. I'm calling Denon tomorrow and maybe calling Directv as well, in case of a necessary update. Also tried unplugging everything for ten minutes and that whole spiel didn't work either.
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post #7402 of 8744 Old 05-11-2014, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by cfraser View Post

^ I have heard it with an X4000 too. Don't remember the exact circumstances*, but like it was for you, I happened to be very close to a speaker when adjusting the volume, normally I'm not (and they are much less sensitive speakers than most use for HT). It is a very very faint "tick" (not really a pop) that is often heard with digital volume controls. I also recall hearing it years ago when I experimented with an Oppo BDP, using the digital volume control (never actually use that, was just a test). I can't hear this noise from the X4000 under any normal-use circumstances, sit ~8' from the speakers. The relays are about 1000X louder. smile.gif

*Edit: Oh yeah, you were talking about program material: in my case, when I heard the ticks, there was no actual source sound. I was probably hooked up to a laptop via HDMI while running REW. REW was idling, and I was at the X4000 turning the volume knob. I do remember that part...it's really the only time I'm near a speaker when the AVR is on. Also, the AVR volume is quite loud when I do REW (-9dB).

Interesting, sounds similar. In my case, while it's easier to hear close to a speaker, it's noticeable from the listening position. And with no music or just background hiss, it doesn't happen. At this point I figure it's a normal quirk, maybe exacerbated by my bright speakers, and certainly something with which I can live.

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Denon X2000 receiver fed by Panasonic DMP-BDT210 Bluray player
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post #7403 of 8744 Old 05-12-2014, 12:31 AM
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Dumb question maybe Niccolo, but did you try new cables?

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post #7404 of 8744 Old 05-12-2014, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by McStyvie View Post

Dumb question maybe Niccolo, but did you try new cables?

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Nope. But I'm hard pressed to explain how cables would cause this. I'm just using 14awg monoprice stuff. But all five cable runs would have to be consistently flawed somehow, and how could cables introduce clicking during volume changes?

No other cables are common denominators, ie it happens when I feed content to the avr through hdmi, USB, RCA interconnects, or cat5e.

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post #7405 of 8744 Old 05-12-2014, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post

Interesting, sounds similar. In my case, while it's easier to hear close to a speaker, it's noticeable from the listening position. And with no music or just background hiss, it doesn't happen. At this point I figure it's a normal quirk, maybe exacerbated by my bright speakers, and certainly something with which I can live.

I had the same issue I described. I would surmise to say it sounds like DAC noise. I returned my X4000 and purchased the Emotiva UMC-2.
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post #7406 of 8744 Old 05-12-2014, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Ricanmeng View Post

I had the same issue I described. I would surmise to say it sounds like DAC noise. I returned my X4000 and purchased the Emotiva UMC-2.

It's reassuring to hear that others have noticed this also. Since it occurs both when inputting digital and analog content into the AVR, i.e. when using the AVR's DACs and external ones, I'm not sure it can be attributed to the DACs, unless there's some interaction between all DACs and the AVR's volume control.

The Emotiva stuff looks great, though a significant step up in budget for me.

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119" Da-Lite Cinema Contour with High-Contrast (gray) Da-Mat screen
Denon X2000 receiver fed by Panasonic DMP-BDT210 Bluray player
Focal Chorus 700-series towers and center, JMLab Tantal 500-series bookshelf rears
Rythmik FV15HP sub
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post #7407 of 8744 Old 05-12-2014, 01:45 PM
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I'm having an issue with my Denon X-4000 HDMI output. For some reason it's not HDMI handshaking correctly with my Vivitek D795WT projector. If you are viewing the Denon menus, it outputs just fine to the projector, or if you are converting component sources to HDMI it shows them perfectly. However any HDMI input to the X-4000 doesn't display to the projector; the projector keeps searching for an input.

I've tried several types of HDMI cables. I've tried the multiple HDMI zone outputs. I've swapped in an HDMI LCD monitor for the projector, and everything works fine when using a different monitor. I've also put the sources directly into the projector, and the projector HDMI input works fine.

There was a former thread on this similar issue back from January, but the only solution was that the poster ended up swapping out the TV for a different one.

Any settings help on this one? No idea what to do at this point.

Thanks.
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post #7408 of 8744 Old 05-12-2014, 01:59 PM
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^^
To mitigate HDMI handshake issues, it's best to power on the AVR first, wait 4-5 seconds, power on the AVR, wait 4-5 seconds, and then power on the PJ. If the length of the cable is > 20' then also try replacing with a better quality Monoprice cable (either regular High Speed or Redmere).

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post #7409 of 8744 Old 05-12-2014, 03:06 PM
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Can you airplay to zone 2? (x2000 model)

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post #7410 of 8744 Old 05-12-2014, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, all network sources are available in other zones for all networked models. However, note that with Airplay specifically it "hijacks" the entire receiver briefly, so if you are doing something else in Main Zone it will initially switch to the Airplay stream, and then you can switch it back to something else while the stream continues in Zone 2.

This is covered here: http://batpigworld.com/wp/?p=160

And there is more info at the beginning of the thread.

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