The 'Official' 2013 Denon "E Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 262 - AVS Forum
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post #7831 of 8942 Old 06-09-2014, 08:05 PM
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I've searched for answers but haven't found them...

Two questions:
  1. I'm playing MP3s from a USB stick attached to my Blueray player. The Blueray audio out is set to bitstream. The only surround modes I have available on the X4000 are: stereo, multi channel in, multi ch stereo, Rock arena, jazz club, matrix, and virtual. I want PLII. How can I get that?
  2. When playing those MP3s from the USB stick on my Blueray, how can I only have the front speakers and the subwoofer playing, and without Audyssey engaged? I'd like to have this option sometimes.
  3. Can I save two different Audyssey setups? I would like to switch back and forth between two types of front speakers.

Denon AVR-X4000 ($622)
Gallo Strada 2 fronts, with Mapleshade stands ($600)
HSU VTF-2 ($215)
Harmony 650 remote
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post #7832 of 8942 Old 06-09-2014, 09:19 PM - Thread Starter
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1 and 2 -- what is the input signal being reported as? It sounds like the bluray player is sending a multich PCM signal with two channels of audio and 3.1 blank channels. This explains all the symptoms you report.

3. No, you can't switch without saving and loading through the network interface which takes 10 minutes. The X4000 allows you to have a second separate set of front speakers connected with separate bass management, distance and level settings, but they can't have a separate audyssey config.

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post #7833 of 8942 Old 06-09-2014, 09:41 PM
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This what I'm getting:


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post #7834 of 8942 Old 06-10-2014, 03:07 AM
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^^
1. If the source is sending a multi channel signal (eg. 7.1) there is nothing to simulate even though you are only hearing audio from 2CH. You could try setting the PS3 to stereo only and then the AVR could simulate 5.1 audio
2. Use either DIRECT or PURE DIRECT surround mode (PURE button on remote) with the subwoofer set to LFE+MAIN.
3. You can select either Audyssey (movies) or Audyssey Flat (music).

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post #7835 of 8942 Old 06-10-2014, 10:13 AM
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Hey, reporting back on my problem. I am now totally confused.

 

I upgraded my AVR from the 1713 to the X1000. However, now I realize the reason I have been getting terrible audio from the laptop is because its using Neo:6 (which I don't recall the 1713 had). I only just found out that Neo:6 is like prologic and other stereo/5.1 conversion methods... so its not even in Dolby Digital...

 

The sad thing is that there IS no such option. This is really annoying considering I was just using this laptop with my Denon 1713 before I got this AVR and it had no problems at all but now the X1000 won't even give me the option to choose Dolby Digital. The only options are : Virtual, stereo, neo:6, prologic II, multichannel stereo and rock arena...

 

So what is going on here? Is this the fault of my PC or my AVR? It use to work perfectly fine with my 1713.

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post #7836 of 8942 Old 06-10-2014, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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It's not the receiver. All it can do is play what it receives. If you aren't getting an option for Dolby Digital then the receiver isn't getting it. If you check the input signal information I guarantee the receiver is getting a 2ch input signal.
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post #7837 of 8942 Old 06-10-2014, 10:37 AM
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Yeah thats kind of what I thought but then why is it like this now? It worked perfectly fine with the Denon 1713 but suddenly it won't provide a 6 channel signal for the X1000? Would really appreciate some key search words for me to go by since i really don't know which direction to look for answers.

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post #7838 of 8942 Old 06-10-2014, 11:08 AM - Thread Starter
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You need to check your computer's settings. Make sure that (1) it's configured properly for multich output and (2) the source you are trying to use actually has 5.1 output as an option.

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post #7839 of 8942 Old 06-10-2014, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

1 and 2 -- what is the input signal being reported as? It sounds like the bluray player is sending a multich PCM signal with two channels of audio and 3.1 blank channels. This explains all the symptoms you report.

3. No, you can't switch without saving and loading through the network interface which takes 10 minutes. The X4000 allows you to have a second separate set of front speakers connected with separate bass management, distance and level settings, but they can't have a separate audyssey config.

Thanks Batpig.

Turns out that my Bluray WAS mixing the 2-channel signal into a multi-channel signal. A little known option was selected in the Bluray before upgrading to my X4000, and my old receiver still saw it as a 2-channel signal, so I never knew it was being mixed.

As to the 3rd question, I wanted to A-B test some speakers with Audyssey engaged, but I guess I'll forgo that and just use the options you mentioned.

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Gallo Strada 2 fronts, with Mapleshade stands ($600)
HSU VTF-2 ($215)
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post #7840 of 8942 Old 06-10-2014, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a dirty little secret for A-B testing speakers with Audyssey engaged:

Only connect the two pairs of speakers you want to test. Connect one pair as FRONT and the other pair as SURROUND. A subwoofer is optional if you also want to test with bass management but there's a wrinkle (noted below).

Set Amp Assign to "5.1ch + Front B". Run Audyssey, with "Channel Select" option set to measure Front A speakers. Audyssey will calibrate the four connected speakers. It will not attempt to calibrate the B speakers (which don't actually exist).

After calibration, go into Speakers > Manual Setup > Front Speaker Setup and configure 2ch playback to use the A speakers and Multich playback to use the (nonexistent) B speakers.

With this configuration, the receiver will use the first pair of speakers (connected as FRONT) for 2ch playback modes, and will mute the "A" speakers in multich modes and switch to phantom B speakers.

Now the dirty trick: MULTICH STEREO mode sends a duplicate signal to the surround speakers as the fronts. So if you put it in STEREO surround mode, you will hear one pair of the front speakers. If you put it in MULTICH STEREO surround mode, the first pair (Front A) will mute and the duplicate signal will go to the only other pair of speakers you have connected -- the second pair of speakers hooked up as SURROUND. It will also send the signal to the Front B speakers (surr.back posts) but nothing is connected, so you will get a simple stereo signal played by the surrounds (what you are really using as your "B" speakers) only. Therefore, by toggling between STEREO and MULTICH STEREO modes you can A/B the two pairs of speakers with full Audyssey calibration.

Now the subwoofer wrinkle -- the copied signal from MULTICH STEREO does NOT respect the bass management of the other speakers, it's a perfect copy of the stereo signal including the bass management front your front speakers. So, in order for the comparison to work correctly, you need to make sure both pairs of speakers are set to have the same crossover frequency in the speaker config menu.

Give it a go!
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post #7841 of 8942 Old 06-10-2014, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I have a dirty little secret for A-B testing speakers with Audyssey engaged:

Only connect the two pairs of speakers you want to test. Connect one pair as FRONT and the other pair as SURROUND. A subwoofer is optional if you also want to test with bass management but there's a wrinkle (noted below).

Set Amp Assign to "5.1ch + Front B". Run Audyssey, with "Channel Select" option set to measure Front A speakers. Audyssey will calibrate the four connected speakers. It will not attempt to calibrate the B speakers (which don't actually exist).

After calibration, go into Speakers > Manual Setup > Front Speaker Setup and configure 2ch playback to use the A speakers and Multich playback to use the (nonexistent) B speakers.

With this configuration, the receiver will use the first pair of speakers (connected as FRONT) for 2ch playback modes, and will mute the "A" speakers in multich modes and switch to phantom B speakers.

Now the dirty trick: MULTICH STEREO mode sends a duplicate signal to the surround speakers as the fronts. So if you put it in STEREO surround mode, you will hear one pair of the front speakers. If you put it in MULTICH STEREO surround mode, the first pair (Front A) will mute and the duplicate signal will go to the only other pair of speakers you have connected -- the second pair of speakers hooked up as SURROUND. It will also send the signal to the Front B speakers (surr.back posts) but nothing is connected, so you will get a simple stereo signal played by the surrounds (what you are really using as your "B" speakers) only. Therefore, by toggling between STEREO and MULTICH STEREO modes you can A/B the two pairs of speakers with full Audyssey calibration.

Now the subwoofer wrinkle -- the copied signal from MULTICH STEREO does NOT respect the bass management of the other speakers, it's a perfect copy of the stereo signal including the bass management front your front speakers. So, in order for the comparison to work correctly, you need to make sure both pairs of speakers are set to have the same crossover frequency in the speaker config menu.

Give it a go!

WOW! Fantastic advice. Thanks once again! I'll give it a go later tonight!

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HSU VTF-2 ($215)
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post #7842 of 8942 Old 06-10-2014, 01:22 PM
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Thank you for the direction. I did need an update and went ahead with it. After the update some of the GUI wouldn't show up but a reset fixed it.
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post #7843 of 8942 Old 06-10-2014, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
This information is available in post #6 of this thread.


Thanks for the direction. I did need and update.
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post #7844 of 8942 Old 06-10-2014, 02:59 PM
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Longtime listener, second time caller prepared to give a few initial impressions on the X4000 I recently upgraded a 7 year-old Yamaha 661 with. It came in the mail yesterday (thanks, JD.....wink.gif )

PROS

1. It's a handsome piece of gear in my estimation, no question. Understated from an overt buttons/knobs/lights/inputs perspective.

2. Setup was very intuitive and easy (and will be for anyone who has ever set up an A/V receiver of similar features). It took all of about 10 minutes (pre-Audyssey). The GUI, while a complaint with some, was absolutely outstanding for me - I couldn't get my OSD through HDMI with the 7 year-old Yammy.............mad.gif

3. AUDYSSEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have to confess, after what I considered dismal performance by Yamaha's YAPO - the first auto-correction system I had ever experienced - I had only marginal expectations of and hopes for Audyssey, despite all the chatter. Boy, was I wwrrrr........wrrrrrrrrrrrroo...........wwwrrrrrrrrrrooonng. Absolutely night and day difference with Audyssey on. I originally just did a manual setup with many of the same settings I used from the Yamaha receiver with no EQ or room correction. After running Audyssey? Holy crap. Simply put, it was truly impressive. If Audyssey sounds this good, I can only imagine what Anthem's ARC system sounds like..........but then again...........ah, forget it. Audyssey MultEQ XT32 is pretty damned good, that's all I've got to say. I'm sure good enough for my purposes (though I do have a relatively screwy listening room; a family room with two glass doorwalls with sheer window curtains on one side, a half wall on the other, and a vaulted ceiling that slopes upward from about 8 to 10 foot). I have done some DIT acoustic treatments to help enhance things, however. The sonic improvements to the sound quality are readily apparent. SIDEBAR: actual distances of front R/L/C were measured about a half a foot less with Audyssey, which I had no problem with; after critical listening and tweaking sub distance, I also lost a foot off the old Yamaha setting, which WAS 7.5 feet farther than actual; after Audyssey, I only increased the distance 6.5 feet to get the same "invisible" subwoofer integration.

4. Not sure if I can attribute the new sound signature to what some have called the "Denon" sound or to Audyssey, but it is definitely less clinical than the Yammy I replaced. In fairness, that was a somewhat bright receiver paired with very detailed, airy (some would say "bright") Magnepan MMGs. The sound now is an unmistakable improvement (not that it was bad before.......). FWIW, I am running my front three channels (L/R/C) through an Adcom GFA-6000 5-channel amp, and the surrounds (a pair of Paradigm Phantom v.2s) through the Denon.

CONS

1. The remote IS kind of sucky for a relatively high-end piece of gear like this. Small buttons, bunched together...........the whole thing just kind of softly squeaks "cheap" to me.

2. No 12V, triggered power outlets in the back. I DID have an Adcom ACE 515 power conditioner plugged into the back of the Yammy, with the GFA-6000 plugged into the 515, and I had the pre-pro/receiver and dedicated amplifier power on and off in proper sequence. Due to the age of the 515 (Jurassic Period, I think, with no DC mini-jack trigger in) and the lack of 12V outlets on the X4000, I'm now in the market for a new programmable power conditioner/surge protector. Belkin PF60 here I come. This is a detail that completely got by me.

3. Because I'm running my front mains and center through a dedicated amplifier, I'm a little surprised that the Denon is running as warm as it is. Not hot, mind you, but a bit warmer than I would have thought. I'm running 4-ohm Maggies F/L/C, but again, they're not being powered by the Denon. I had anticipated that the heat output would be a bit less on the Denon (125 wpc) compared to the older Yamaha (90 wpc) - I realize wpc hasn't much to do with it, but I figured the Denon would be a bit beefier from the extra power, and would dissipate heat better. It's not an issue (at least not yet..........) as I always have a small, auxiliary Polar fan around to blast onto a piece of equipment if listening sessions get exceptionally.............interesting.............and have no qualm about firing it up to take the edge off either the receiver or amp. At any rate, I don't typically listen at reference levels any way (from a medical perspective, hearing protection is required at levels above 85 dB..........) but will run an hour or so at -10.0 dB +/- on occasion. I have had the Adcom heat up a good bit pushing the Maggies at that level for that period of time, and the fan was handy. I don't anticipate any issues, just making an observation, as I've read much of this thread and it appears others have had heat issues.

4. While I have much early praise for Audyssey, it set crossovers for the main L/R Maggies at 110 or 120Hz (can't remember), the crossover for the center Magnepan MMG-C at 150 Hz, and the crossovers for the Paradigm Phantom v.2 surrounds at 40 Hz. These were unacceptably high in the case of the Maggies, which I re-set to 60 and 110, respectively, based on each speaker's frequency output; the MMGs really should be run at or close to full range. The Paradigms weren't bad - set to just below their full range of 50 Hz or so - but I bumped the crossover up to 60 Hz on those as well to give them a little headroom but still preserve as much of their natural range as possible, as they are some truly good sounding speakers as well.

Yes, it's only been a day, but so far, so good. No setup hangups (sorry, haven't had time to get into the network issue yet..........), no apparent bugs or malfunctions, everything I've used so far (including front USB port for a quick iPod hookup) has worked, and the sound is a definite upgrade over what I was listening to (THANK you, Audyssey!).

Initial impressions only, subject to change at moment's notice..........


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post #7845 of 8942 Old 06-10-2014, 03:33 PM
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Glad to see you are enjoying it and welcome to the club.


From my more recent experience using 3 different receivers (all of which used external amps) I would guess the majority of the heat is coming from the HDMI board.
For what its worth the X4000 runs WAY cooler than my space heater called the Integra 40.3 I had.
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post #7846 of 8942 Old 06-10-2014, 04:09 PM
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I appreciate that, thank you.

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post #7847 of 8942 Old 06-11-2014, 04:53 AM
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Also have the X4000 neverlies, and it does run a bit warm, but it has never shut down on me even after 10+ straight hours of music use.

On Audyssey, it is notorious for dodgy crossover settings. It sets my 683 B&Ws to large and crosses them at 40 hz.

It is standard to have to manually adjust the xovers and as well the speaker types (I have to reset all of mine to small and put the xover at 80 hz). If you use a sub (or four like I do), do not leave them on large.

play around with Audyssey, the xovers, etc...you will have to rerun it several times, in different mic positions before you get it to where you like it maybe, but I personally really like it too.


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post #7848 of 8942 Old 06-11-2014, 05:18 AM
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Just to kick in with my experience with the X4000, mine has never run any hotter than barely warm to the touch. It is in a semi-open cabinet, with ventilation behind, but no fans...

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post #7849 of 8942 Old 06-11-2014, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader424242 View Post

Just to kick in with my experience with the X4000, mine has never run any hotter than barely warm to the touch. It is in a semi-open cabinet, with ventilation behind, but no fans...

Mine runs pretty darned hot - even though I have a separate amp taking care of my mains. It still powers 7 other speakers though - and has yet to have protection mode kick in.

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post #7850 of 8942 Old 06-11-2014, 06:05 AM
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... of course, I'm currently running a 5.1 setup (soon to be back to a 7.1 - but that's another stoty), and my listening is usually 10-15db below reference...wink.gif

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post #7851 of 8942 Old 06-11-2014, 06:11 AM
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FedEx delivered my shiny new X4000 yesterday. I promise I will RTFM and scour this thread before posting stupid questions (which doesn't mean that I won't end up posting stupid questions anyways).

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FedEx delivered my shiny new X4000 yesterday. I promise I will RTFM and scour this thread before posting stupid questions (which doesn't mean that I won't end up posting stupid questions anyways).

Congrats to your new AVR it is a great receiver!!!

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post #7853 of 8942 Old 06-12-2014, 07:01 AM
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I appreciate that, thank you.
Check again -- the x4000 Does have 12V triggers. I am using one of them to run a relay to turn on my 120V cooling fan.
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post #7854 of 8942 Old 06-12-2014, 08:02 AM
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Additional observation on X4000 and Audyssey MultEQ XT32

One of the slight beefs I've had with my MMGs is that they tend to lean somewhat toward more two dimensional than I might otherwise like. Put another way, the depth of the image and soundstage is a bit lacking. Make no mistake, the soundstage and image are both excellent, and the detail of these speakers is next to impossible to approach at the price point - you hear smacking lips and mouth sounds as the recording engineer wanted you to. However, for some reason, they fall a little short in the depth department.


I have noticed after a second Audyssey run-through that this program definitely increased the depth of the soundstage. Not by a monumental amount, mind you, but certainly noticeable.


This program will make marginal-sounding systems sound good, and good-sounding systems sound great.


I have to say that I'm duly impressed by the Audyssey MultEQ XT32 on this Denon unit.


BTW, I tweaked the microphone height a little bit this round at 3 of the 8 locations (I raised it closer to ear level while sitting in my office chair) and the crossovers were much closer to where they should have been after the first run-through. Sizes, levels and distances were all about the same.


On another note, the sound mode navigation on the remote I've found to be a bit on the clumsy side. Nothing major, certainly, just a nit to pick.

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post #7855 of 8942 Old 06-12-2014, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by chenrikson View Post
Check again -- the x4000 Does have 12V triggers. I am using one of them to run a relay to turn on my 120V cooling fan.


Yep, but 12V triggers (through the mini-RC jacks) are different than 12V triggered outlets, which I needed to plug the Adcom ACE 515 into - they don't have the newer, mini-jack 12V triggers (they're an ancient unit). You had to actually plug one of the 2 power cords into a regular 12V outlet found on the backs of older receivers (like the Yamaha 661 I just retired) that acted as the trigger unit (the other power cord went into the wall outlet).

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post #7856 of 8942 Old 06-12-2014, 05:12 PM
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What audio setting do most of you watch/listen to cable/satelite TV in? Dolby PLII? Is there a way to watch/listen to this source as a "pure" mode when it is broadcast in 5.1, 7.1 etc and then PLII when it is broadcast in 2 channel?
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post #7857 of 8942 Old 06-12-2014, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dafish721 View Post
Is there a way to watch/listen to this source as a "pure" mode when it is broadcast in 5.1, 7.1 etc and then PLII when it is broadcast in 2 channel?
That should happen automatically. The surround mode settings are saved by input signal, so if you want it to play "Dolby Digital" when a 5.1 signal is received but "PLII Cinema" when a 2ch signal is received, it will remember that automatically going forward.

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post #7858 of 8942 Old 06-12-2014, 05:37 PM
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I currently have the "movies" button set to PLII and every show that I watch always says PLII. What I am doing wrong? What should I set this to so it automaticlly changes to the acutual sound field, 5.1, 7.1, etc that is being broadcast. Sorry, can you walk me through this one?
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post #7859 of 8942 Old 06-12-2014, 07:03 PM
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^^
It either means your cable/sat box is not set to pass Dolby Digital 5.1 or you don't have any HD channels that can pass DD 5.1.

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post #7860 of 8942 Old 06-13-2014, 06:15 AM
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I have Directv, what do I need to do to set it up to pass 5.1?
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