The 'Official' 2013 Denon "E Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 308 - AVS Forum
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post #9211 of 9235 Old 10-26-2014, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by NoFateDenon View Post
i am verry limited to configure my router settings, we receive a router from our provider
does it help to configure dhcp instead of static?
It may work better, but also note you don't have to necessarily use the router provided by the provider. In fact, if you are paying a monthly rent on it, you can likely just buy a better model and stop having to pay rent.

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post #9212 of 9235 Old 10-26-2014, 03:05 PM
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Thanks JD. I did a 10 minute unplug followed by the microprocessor reset series. I have had to do that twice. Oh well, back it goes.
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post #9213 of 9235 Old 10-26-2014, 10:19 PM
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I just bought the last X4000 in Alaska. (at least at the BB stores--I don't know if the smaller independent store has any). I missed the last new in box unit by a few hours, so I ended up with a former display.

After reading most of this thread and the corresponding 2014 model thread I had intended to wait until next fall to maybe pick up an X4100 or X5200 on clearance, but my older Onkyo started cutting out (audio) and then shutting off last week. That's all the excuse I needed to accelerate my plans.

I have to scrounge up a power cord, and they ended up giving me a remote from an X3000, but the receiver itself looks like it's in good condition.

Fingers crossed...
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post #9214 of 9235 Old Yesterday, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by rogersmj View Post
Thanks. I'd already tried swapping the ethernet cables around. I went through the HDCP reset but no change. I unmounted the bar TV and carried it over to the receiver, and connected directly to the X4000 there was no issue.

HOWEVER, swapping the other TVs (as you suggested) causes problems -- meaning I can take the TV that's on Zone 2 and works perfectly, simply move the cable from Zone 2 HDMI out to Monitor 2, and it won't work. Same cables, same HDMI extenders, etc. So something is different about the way the X4000 handles the signal between those HDMI outputs.

Placing an HDMI signal booster on the line (near the receiver, oddly, not the TV which is usually recommended) helps somewhat, but even at max boost it doesn't eliminate the TV from losing its picture every few seconds (then immediately coming back). This behavior is consistent no matter which TV I connect Monitor 2 to. The good news is that putting the signal booster in there eliminates the main TV from ever picture/HDMI handshake cycling.

I've ordered a different HDMI booster and am going to see if that helps. Or maybe I just order an HDMI splitter and abandon the X4000's built-in Monitor 2.
For anyone wondering how this turned out, a $23 HDMI splitter did what my $1000 Denon receiver couldn't -- send a reliable signal to a second monitor. That was a lot of hours of troubleshooting and grief. Oh well.
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post #9215 of 9235 Old Yesterday, 05:18 PM
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Someone just referred to setting the audio delay (lip sync) on multiple inputs: TiVo, DVD, Roku, etc. How do you do that accurately?

Setting it on my DVD/BD is easy - run a test disk. But how do you do it on TiVo or Roku where you can't control the signal? I've tried just watching a program and guessing but I never feel it's just right.

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post #9216 of 9235 Old Yesterday, 09:52 PM
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I have the x4000. My question is, with Room correction etc. Is it important to have same length speaker cables anymore? I'm about to run my new wiring for my remodel and the right side will require much more cable in the front, and much less cable in the rears. My AVR will be located in the back right corner. All speakers except the right rear will be routed up through the ceiling and down a 20ft wall. than the right front will have to cross over another 13ft. Is 13ft difference going to be a problem (same with front heights)? The left rear cable is much shorter than the fronts at 20 ft long and the right rear only needs to be about 4ft. I really don't want to match all my speakers to the extra long front right witch I guess will be about 70ft when finished.

Sorry if this is in the wrong section, but i wasn't sure if AVR model had an effect on same length cables.

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post #9217 of 9235 Old Yesterday, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soupy1970 View Post
I have the x4000. My question is, with Room correction etc. Is it important to have same length speaker cables anymore? I'm about to run my new wiring for my remodel and the right side will require much more cable in the front, and much less cable in the rears. My AVR will be located in the back right corner. All speakers except the right rear will be routed up through the ceiling and down a 20ft wall. than the right front will have to cross over another 13ft. Is 13ft difference going to be a problem (same with front heights)? The left rear cable is much shorter than the fronts at 20 ft long and the right rear only needs to be about 4ft. I really don't want to match all my speakers to the extra long front right witch I guess will be about 70ft when finished.

Sorry if this is in the wrong section, but i wasn't sure if AVR model had an effect on same length cables.

It shouldn't as long as it isn't too small of a gauge. What size are you using?


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post #9218 of 9235 Old Yesterday, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post
It shouldn't as long as it isn't too small of a gauge. What size are you using?


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14 gauge

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post #9219 of 9235 Old Yesterday, 10:16 PM
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You should be fine[emoji106]


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post #9220 of 9235 Old Today, 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soupy1970 View Post
I have the x4000. My question is, with Room correction etc. Is it important to have same length speaker cables anymore? I'm about to run my new wiring for my remodel and the right side will require much more cable in the front, and much less cable in the rears. My AVR will be located in the back right corner. All speakers except the right rear will be routed up through the ceiling and down a 20ft wall. than the right front will have to cross over another 13ft. Is 13ft difference going to be a problem (same with front heights)? The left rear cable is much shorter than the fronts at 20 ft long and the right rear only needs to be about 4ft. I really don't want to match all my speakers to the extra long front right witch I guess will be about 70ft when finished.

Sorry if this is in the wrong section, but i wasn't sure if AVR model had an effect on same length cables.
Nope. When you run Audyssey, the level/distance of each speaker/sub is calculated in the first mic position. The AVR will then set the appropriate level for each speaker/sub based on those distance measurements. For the best results, use a mic boom stand or tripod to support the Audyssey mic and you should be good to go.

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post #9221 of 9235 Old Today, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Soupy1970 View Post
Is it important to have same length speaker cables anymore?
It never was very important, unless you had very long cables (too much resistance) or were using solid wire (skin effect, which also adds resistance).

Electricity travels about 1 foot per nanosecond (10^-9 second). Sound travels a bit more than 1 foot per millisecond (10^-3 second). So, one might say that signal delay due to the length of the speaker cables is about 1/1,000,000 as important as that due to the distance from the listening position to the speakers.
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post #9222 of 9235 Old Today, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan in St. Louis View Post
Electricity travels about 1 foot per nanosecond (10^-9 second). Sound travels a bit more than 1 foot per millisecond (10^-3 second). So, one might say that signal delay due to the length of the speaker cables is about 1/1,000,000 as important as that due to the distance from the listening position to the speakers.
Exactly. Having the left speaker cable 3 ft (1 meter) shorter than the right speaker cable has about the same effect as having the left speaker about one micron closer to the main listening position than the right speaker.

Trying to sit absolutely still, your head will still move around on distances orders of magnitude greater than the effect of cable length. Total non-issue.

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post #9223 of 9235 Old Today, 09:52 AM
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I have to say I was impressed and surprised when I re-ran XT32 in my new room last night.

In the old room Audyssey always set my LSA monitors / LCR center / OW surrounds as Large, which is the norm with receivers these days. And of course I'd go in and set them all to Small with an appropriate crossover point. Well, I did an 8-pt run in the new room and it surprisingly set all the speakers to Small with a 60Hz crossover for the mains and surrounds and a 40 Hz crossover for the center.

I was only able to listen to a few short clips but I have to say it sounds really good as-is, without bumping up the crossover points or adding a few dB to the subs as I usually do.

I'm not sure why Audyssey is now flagging the speakers as Small whereas it used to flag them as Large. The mains are just a little bit further away from the wall than they were in the old room so maybe without the reinforcement it was just enough to change the measurement...
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post #9224 of 9235 Old Today, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Soupy1970 View Post
I have the x4000. My question is, with Room correction etc. Is it important to have same length speaker cables anymore?
It was never important, so it still isn't

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post #9225 of 9235 Old Today, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pg_rider View Post
I have to say I was impressed and surprised when I re-ran XT32 in my new room last night.

In the old room Audyssey always set my LSA monitors / LCR center / OW surrounds as Large, which is the norm with receivers these days. And of course I'd go in and set them all to Small with an appropriate crossover point. Well, I did an 8-pt run in the new room and it surprisingly set all the speakers to Small with a 60Hz crossover for the mains and surrounds and a 40 Hz crossover for the center.

I was only able to listen to a few short clips but I have to say it sounds really good as-is, without bumping up the crossover points or adding a few dB to the subs as I usually do.

I'm not sure why Audyssey is now flagging the speakers as Small whereas it used to flag them as Large. The mains are just a little bit further away from the wall than they were in the old room so maybe without the reinforcement it was just enough to change the measurement...
The crossovers (well, really the -3dB points) are calculated based on ALL the measurements, unlike the distances / levels which are set only at the first mic position. So a combination of slight changes in speaker location and microphone positioning can definitely yield slight changes in detected low freq roll-off.

I'd probably still raise the center to 60Hz to match the fronts and take a bit of the ultra low bass load away and hand it to the sub(s), but if it sounds good at 60Hz then rock away.
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post #9226 of 9235 Old Today, 11:01 AM
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I had the same thought Batpig, but for now I want to try completely trusting XT32! lol

In all seriousness, I've always tweaked my room correction settings using a Radio Shack meter as well as anecdotal evidence (like the 80Hz XO setting). This time, I'm curious to see if the measured / reference settings that Audyssey comes up with will be the most satisfying in the long-term. I'd like to believe that the Audyssey algorithms were designed to work as a whole, and that if you start tweaking one or two of them the whole presentation will break down... We'll see!

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post #9227 of 9235 Old Today, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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The important thing to understand though is that Audyssey doesn't actually set the crossovers. All it does is measure the speakers' response and pass the data to the processor, which then makes the small/large and crossover decisions. Receiver manufacturers have never been willing to hand over control of bass management to Audyssey (and the primary reason is because they don't want to offend people with big tower speakers by calling them "small" - true story!).

So, while it's a somewhat academic point, it's important to understand because it negates the assumption that the crossovers set are somehow "ideal" or "reference" and that you are "trusting XT32" by leaving them as is. Audyssey themselves would tell you to ALWAYS reset speakers to small if you have a subwoofer: http://www.audyssey.com/blog/small-vs-large

Furthermore, Audyssey never measures the interaction of the subwoofer and the speaker(s) at the crossover splice. It's entirely possible that measurements would reveal that raising the crossover would yield a smoother response due to the vagaries of room acoustics, but you'd really need measurement gear to determine this.

So, while I understand the vague emotional appeal of "trusting the calibration", I just want to make sure you are aware that the crossover settings selected after calibration are not necessarily the "best" or "Audyssey endorsed reference" settings. Obviously, if it sounds good, then roll with it, but just wanted to clarify.
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post #9228 of 9235 Old Today, 11:39 AM
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Good points, especially about crossover smoothness. In my previous room I measured significant dB drops around the crossover whether it was set to 60, 80, or 100 Hz. But setting the XO to120 Hz yielded a very smooth transition so I went with it (easy to do with dual symmetrically-placed subs that aren't localizable at that high freq).

Audyssey should definitely strive to improve their capabilities relative to main/sub crossover integration in the future.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Furthermore, Audyssey never measures the interaction of the subwoofer and the speaker(s) at the crossover splice. It's entirely possible that measurements would reveal that raising the crossover would yield a smoother response due to the vagaries of room acoustics, but you'd really need measurement gear to determine this.
Very informative post batpig, thanks. I think you already said that in earlier posts but somehow I keep forgetting that, and it explains why nulls in the frequency response near the crossover frequency can often be fixed or improved by slight tweaks of the sub distance or crossover frequency.

That being said, as @pg_rider said, I think the A/V world is ripe for an AVR that can take care of that as well, and set up a system optimally without having irrational fears about offending customers. Is there a need to tag the speakers as "small" or "large" anyway? Ha, it could ask the customer "do you want to set your sub to small or large" instead. That would be the better question

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post #9230 of 9235 Old Today, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, the "small/large" nomenclature is really stupid and outdated. Back in the day, before the more flexible bass management schemes and sophisticated auto calibration software we have today, it was probably easier conceptually to just let the end user identify speaker size as a proxy for bass management activation -- hey dude, are your speakers really big or are they small??

But, these days, it's just confusing. The "small/large" designation should simply disappear. If there is a subwoofer detected as part of the speaker config, bass management should automatically be engaged, and then the only setting should be the crossover frequency (with a "full band" option for those who desire it).

Unfortunately, it's not really Audyssey's fault that they don't optimize this, as I mentioned above the receiver manucturers simply haven't been willing to give up control of this portion of the settings. I'm pretty sure that Chris Kyriakakis has said in the past that Audyssey has the software already developed to measure speaker/sub splice and optimize the crossover, but they can't implement it because of this roadblock.

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post #9231 of 9235 Old Today, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Unfortunately, it's not really Audyssey's fault that they don't optimize this, as I mentioned above the receiver manucturers simply haven't been willing to give up control of this portion of the settings. I'm pretty sure that Chris Kyriakakis has said in the past that Audyssey has the software already developed to measure speaker/sub splice and optimize the crossover, but they can't implement it because of this roadblock.
I know Audyssey is not a hardware shop, and it's beginning to be quite off-topic to speak about this in the official Denon thread, but perhaps Audyssey could make an AVR with their vision of room correction correctly implemented.

I think they could also find partners for making such an AVR if they were willing to compromise in pricing. Of course I have no idea what an Audyssey license costs, but the price difference between MultEQ 2EQ vs XT vs XT32 AVRs gives us a hint. It's not all software of course (those AVRs have different components, processors, amps, etc.) but still, you won't find XT32 on AVRs under a $1k MSRP. You won't find many small players willing to include all-Audyssey RC software if it costs as much as the hardware.

Well, my dream AVR is not there yet

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post #9232 of 9235 Old Today, 02:33 PM
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... you won't find XT32 on AVRs under a $1k MSRP.
You mean other than the X4000 at $799 retail? :P

So has anyone else ever had their receiver set their speakers to Small after an Audyssey run?

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post #9233 of 9235 Old Today, 02:41 PM - Thread Starter
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You mean other than the X4000 at $799 retail? :P

So has anyone else ever had their receiver set their speakers to Small after an Audyssey run?
It happens all the time. Anyone who isn't running larger tower speakers with meaningful bass down to the ~40Hz range will end up with all speakers set to Small after calibration.

For example, my system consists of bookshelf speakers for L/R, a reasonably large center channel, and small bookshelf speakers for surrounds. They always get set to Small every time. With the ports unplugged my L/C/R get set to Small/60Hz typically; since I'm a smaller room without a ton of distance between the speakers and the back wall I've been running with all ports plugged on the L/C/R for a while now and they consistently get set to Small and 80-100Hz crosover.

The many people with mini "sub-sat" packages (e.g. popular setups like the Energy Take Classic, Mirage Nanosat, Def Tech ProCinema, etc) will always end up with "Small" setting for all speakers since those small satellites roll off in the 100Hz-150Hz range.

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post #9234 of 9235 Old Today, 02:45 PM
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Interesting.... I thought anecdotally that many (most?) bookshelf / monitor speaker owners ended up with a Large setting. That has always been my case with several different systems (both Paradigm Studio 10s and LSA Monitors). That's why I was so surprised that my X4000 finally set them to Small last night.

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post #9235 of 9235 Old Today, 03:30 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm surprised that the Studio 10's got flagged as Large. Paradigm specs them at -2dB at 62Hz, and NRC measurements support that they are rolling off below 70-80Hz as you'd expect from a moderately sized bookshelf speaker with a 5.5" woofer: http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/mea...m_studio10_v5/

They are comparable in performance to my Energy RC-10's in this respect which, as I mentioned, end up at Small/60Hz with the rear ports open in my setup. You must have been getting some significant boundary reinforcement for them to end up set to Large.

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Denon Avr 2309ci Receiver , Denon Avr4310ci Receiver , Denon , Denon Electronics , Polk Audio Monitor70 Series Ii Floorstanding Loudspeaker , Onkyo Tx Nr626 7 2 Channel Network Audio Video Receiver , Denon Avr E200 , Denon Avr E300 , Denon Avr E400 , Denon Avr X2000 7 1 Channel Home Theater Receiver , Denon Avr X3000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver , Denon Avr X1000 5 1 Channel Home Theater Receiver
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