The 'Official' 2013 Denon "E Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 316 - AVS Forum
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post #9451 of 9870 Old 11-26-2014, 05:29 PM
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Wides

I'm considering the addition of wides to my x4000 5.2 system for movie use, and I already have a pair of unused speakers that are a reasonable match to those in use. But a number of reviews/forum posts about Audyssey DSX complained about movie dialogue sounding echoey or hollow when the voices on the soundtrack were not coming from dead center.

Before I move everything around and hook up these wides, can you guys tell me what your experience has been with wides and whether you have noticed this artifact?

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post #9452 of 9870 Old 11-26-2014, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post
Wides

I'm considering the addition of wides to my x4000 5.2 system for movie use, and I already have a pair of unused speakers that are a reasonable match to those in use. But a number of reviews/forum posts about Audyssey DSX complained about movie dialogue sounding echoey or hollow when the voices on the soundtrack were not coming from dead center.

Before I move everything around and hook up these wides, can you guys tell me what your experience has been with wides and whether you have noticed this artifact?
Those reviews are accurate. DSX works by generating synthesized reflections based on the left and right channels. It does this to enhance the sense of "auditory source width" which research has shown people find pleasing. When it's working well it can enhance the sense of scale and immersion and make a small room sound like a huge theater. But when it encounters content that doesn't work well (especially dialogue panning to the sides) it can sound unnatural and echoey.

That said the X4000 also has Neo:X which works differently and doesn't create this type of artifact. So you have options.

Since you have the speakers, not much to lose by setting them up and trying them out. I think you'll like it. Mo speakers mo better.
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post #9453 of 9870 Old 11-26-2014, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post
Wides

I'm considering the addition of wides to my x4000 5.2 system for movie use, and I already have a pair of unused speakers that are a reasonable match to those in use. But a number of reviews/forum posts about Audyssey DSX complained about movie dialogue sounding echoey or hollow when the voices on the soundtrack were not coming from dead center.

Before I move everything around and hook up these wides, can you guys tell me what your experience has been with wides and whether you have noticed this artifact?
More owners (including myself) likely prefer using DTS Neo:X for front wides rather than DSX. Using them most definitely helps to expand the front sound stage and dialogue is still very much center channel focused. Addiitionally, adding Front wides should provide a much better expansion than either Front Heights or Surround Backs.
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post #9454 of 9870 Old 11-26-2014, 06:49 PM
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The 'Official' 2013 Denon "E Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post
Wides

I'm considering the addition of wides to my x4000 5.2 system for movie use, and I already have a pair of unused speakers that are a reasonable match to those in use. But a number of reviews/forum posts about Audyssey DSX complained about movie dialogue sounding echoey or hollow when the voices on the soundtrack were not coming from dead center.

Before I move everything around and hook up these wides, can you guys tell me what your experience has been with wides and whether you have noticed this artifact?

Been using mine with my x4000 for about a year. Very much like NeoX for everything except music, generally stay 2.x for music.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
More owners (including myself) likely prefer using DTS Neo:X for front wides rather than DSX. Using them most definitely helps to expand the front sound stage and dialogue is still very much center channel focused. Addiitionally, adding Front wides should provide a much better expansion than either Front Heights or Surround Backs.

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post #9455 of 9870 Old 11-26-2014, 07:43 PM
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I recently upgraded to the 4520ci and setup wides. I have to say it has been nothing but positive results. I have been running DSX over Neo X. Personally I have only switched to Neo X a few times. Maybe I should try a movie but right now I'm enjoying DSX.

I just got through hanging my heights tonight and tomorrow I'm going to run the wires. After than I need to re run audessey and see how I like all of it.
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post #9456 of 9870 Old 11-26-2014, 08:36 PM
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Thanks for the responses to DSX and (Neo-X). I'll have to give this some thought. It means completely moving all of the equipment and furnishings in the room, placing the subs again, etc. Not sure if (to me) it's worth the effort, but I'll think about it.

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post #9457 of 9870 Old 11-27-2014, 12:56 PM
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Picked up an x2000 1/2 off from Crutchfield. I really like it and want it to last. The thing runs hot, even with plenty of space underneath and above. Placed a 120 mm quite fan top. Works great drops the operating temps 25+ deg.
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post #9458 of 9870 Old 11-27-2014, 06:24 PM
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Heavily leaning toward the X4000 as an update to my 1911. Want to take advantage of 7.2 output, the advanced Audyssey, and perhaps the pre-amp outs at some point in the future.

Reading through the forums, customer reviews from different retailers, etc, I'm seeing more complaints than I'm comfortable with concerning defective units. Now I understand that those with a complaint are more vocal than those that are satisfied customers, but there still seems to be plenty of out of the box failures or shutdown issues after a few weeks.

I've perused this thread, but 315 pages is a lot of reading. Can someone here that is familiar with the Denon X4000 (jdsmoothie, Batpig) provide a summary of reported known issues, perhaps from 1st generation units, that have been resolved, issues that are unresolved, and then a summary of overall dependability of this model? Have there been improvements is later models regarding overall dependability and customer satisfaction?

I did see jdsmoothie's summary of issues listed and resolution in one of the first several posts. Didn't see where any comments there addressed Denon resolution of seemingly high numbers of units reported as bricking within the first year.

Thanks for any insight provided. I'm running Goldenear Triton II for L/R, XL for the Center. Will be adding Invisa HTE 7000 for wides and surrounds down the road.

Brad

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post #9459 of 9870 Old 11-27-2014, 06:37 PM
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^^
Not sure where you're reading "seemingly high numbers of units bricking in the first year." As you say, those with issues are vocal, whereas those without issues have no reason to post. Simply purchase from an authorized dealer to ensure you have a valid warranty if ever required.

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post #9460 of 9870 Old 11-27-2014, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BluesSailor View Post
Heavily leaning toward the X4000 as an update to my 1911. Want to take advantage of 7.2 output, the advanced Audyssey, and perhaps the pre-amp outs at some point in the future.

Reading through the forums, customer reviews from different retailers, etc, I'm seeing more complaints than I'm comfortable with concerning defective units. Now I understand that those with a complaint are more vocal than those that are satisfied customers, but there still seems to be plenty of out of the box failures or shutdown issues after a few weeks.

I've perused this thread, but 315 pages is a lot of reading. Can someone here that is familiar with the Denon X4000 (jdsmoothie, Batpig) provide a summary of reported known issues, perhaps from 1st generation units, that have been resolved, issues that are unresolved, and then a summary of overall dependability of this model? Have there been improvements is later models regarding overall dependability and customer satisfaction?

I did see jdsmoothie's summary of issues listed and resolution in one of the first several posts. Didn't see where any comments there addressed Denon resolution of seemingly high numbers of units reported as bricking within the first year.

Thanks for any insight provided. I'm running Goldenear Triton II for L/R, XL for the Center. Will be adding Invisa HTE 7000 for wides and surrounds down the road.

Brad
I agree with jdsmoothie with the warranty and such. But I too was a little uncomfortable after reading people here and online reviews about going into protection mode. I purchased a x4000 unit at Best Buy with Amazon price match. I bench tested it for a few days and found out that the Denon 4520ci was only $400 more than the x4000. That's a lot more reciever for the money with better components. Also it's built in Japan like my older 3806 that has been flawless since 2006. The x4000 is built in China.

Yes, all new units bought from authorized dealers have the 3 year warranty but it's a pain getting something fixed that goes into protection mode at random. To me not worth the hassle.
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post #9461 of 9870 Old 11-27-2014, 11:21 PM
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Starting to look into how I can control the X2000 with my HTPC. The HTPC is used strictly for move playback. Currently I use my wireless keyboard to control the HTPC movies and the Denon remote for volume.

I see that Phone and Tablet apps can control the volume on the receiver but I am not really finding how to control with the PC. Is there anything out there? I found the Denon Command sheet but have no idea how I send those commands to the reciever.

Any help would be great!
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post #9462 of 9870 Old 11-28-2014, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by nitz369 View Post
Starting to look into how I can control the X2000 with my HTPC. The HTPC is used strictly for move playback. Currently I use my wireless keyboard to control the HTPC movies and the Denon remote for volume.

I see that Phone and Tablet apps can control the volume on the receiver but I am not really finding how to control with the PC. Is there anything out there? I found the Denon Command sheet but have no idea how I send those commands to the reciever.

Any help would be great!
You can control it through web control. While connected to your home network type in the x2000 IP address. It should be in your manual it's very easy to do.
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post #9463 of 9870 Old 11-28-2014, 06:47 AM
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Why would you want to do this? I have an HTPC too. But it makes more logical sense to control it and other devices from some sort of controller (remote, phone, etc.) rather than the device itself. I personally use a remote for everything.
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I have the E400 and when watching certain channels (most notably the Weather Channel) through the Comcast cable box the subwoofer is booming a lot (almost constantly). It sounds fine on most channels and when watching or listening to anything through other sources.

Anyone else experience this? A Comcast issue maybe? Can anyone recommend a quick setting change I could make when watching these channels that might help?
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post #9465 of 9870 Old 11-28-2014, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sourworm View Post
I have the E400 and when watching certain channels (most notably the Weather Channel) through the Comcast cable box the subwoofer is booming a lot (almost constantly). It sounds fine on most channels and when watching or listening to anything through other sources.

Anyone else experience this? A Comcast issue maybe? Can anyone recommend a quick setting change I could make when watching these channels that might help?
Do you have Dynamic EQ turned on? If so, this is likely the cause--try turning it off and see if the problem goes away.
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post #9466 of 9870 Old 11-28-2014, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by mdavej View Post
Why would you want to do this? I have an HTPC too. But it makes more logical sense to control it and other devices from some sort of controller (remote, phone, etc.) rather than the device itself. I personally use a remote for everything.
Web Control won't work, and I basically I want to use what I have already instead of buying IR Receiver for the PC. Harmony Remote does everything I need except control MediaPortal, so I have a Logitech K830 Keyboard for the HTPC, problem is when I sit down to watch a movie I need the keyboard to control the HTPC and the Harmony to control the Denon. I was just thinking that IP Control is possible why not have something that says when I change the system volume on the PC, it changes receiver Volume.

MediaPortal changes system volume, but doesn't change the volume of the movie, HTPC is connected to Denon through HDMI from the video card.

I guess its probably easier to get an IR Receiver for the PC instead.
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post #9467 of 9870 Old 11-29-2014, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sourworm View Post
I have the E400 and when watching certain channels (most notably the Weather Channel) through the Comcast cable box the subwoofer is booming a lot (almost constantly). It sounds fine on most channels and when watching or listening to anything through other sources.

Anyone else experience this? A Comcast issue maybe? Can anyone recommend a quick setting change I could make when watching these channels that might help?
Sounds like a channel specific issue. You could us a Quick Select button specifically for those channels for the CBL/SAT source with Dynamic EQ either set to OFF or the Dyn EQ Reference Level Offset set to 10db.

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post #9468 of 9870 Old 11-29-2014, 11:48 AM
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I'm trying to get all my inputs fairly level for when we switch from one source to another. Now, I realize there is nothing I can do about Netflix encoding at difference levels, or Pandora playing generally louder on the Roku than the Netflix titles. However, I'm experiencing Bluray discs being MUCH louder than DVD's on the same player. Is there a setting that offsets this...I always try to use the uncompressed codecs when playing Bluray, which I realize increases the dynamic range over DVD codecs, but I wouldn't expect such a huge overall level difference in say, dialogue scenes, which is what I'm comparing. Any insight here, or do I need to just get over it?
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post #9469 of 9870 Old 11-29-2014, 11:59 AM
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Sorry if this has been answered previously, but being new to Denon and looking at their model lineup, what is the main difference between the S-series and the X-series AVR's? Initially I thought it was wireless options but now seeing both have wifi and bluetooth. What am I missing by not going with an x-series model?
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post #9470 of 9870 Old 11-29-2014, 12:02 PM
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Might be more of a harmony question but for some reason when I start the activity for cbl/sat for some reason my x3000 keeps switching to TV Audio. Hitting "help" on my harmony fixes it but I'm just not sure why it does it. It doesn't do t all the time and nothing in my harmony uses the TV Audio source.


Any ideas?
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post #9471 of 9870 Old 11-29-2014, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilansa View Post
Sorry if this has been answered previously, but being new to Denon and looking at their model lineup, what is the main difference between the S-series and the X-series AVR's? Initially I thought it was wireless options but now seeing both have wifi and bluetooth. What am I missing by not going with an x-series model?
Sorry, but you're in the wrong thread. Please review posts 1-2 in the 2014 Denon models thread.

The 'Official' 2014 Denon "S Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ

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post #9472 of 9870 Old 11-29-2014, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by de8212 View Post
Might be more of a harmony question but for some reason when I start the activity for cbl/sat for some reason my x3000 keeps switching to TV Audio. Hitting "help" on my harmony fixes it but I'm just not sure why it does it. It doesn't do t all the time and nothing in my harmony uses the TV Audio source.


Any ideas?
This happens because you have HDMI(ARC) set up on the TV to pass TV smart app audio back to the AVR. If you are not using this feature, set HDMI-CEC on your TV to OFF or HIDE the TV audio source on the X3000.

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post #9473 of 9870 Old 11-29-2014, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gracepreacher View Post
I'm trying to get all my inputs fairly level for when we switch from one source to another. Now, I realize there is nothing I can do about Netflix encoding at difference levels, or Pandora playing generally louder on the Roku than the Netflix titles. However, I'm experiencing Bluray discs being MUCH louder than DVD's on the same player. Is there a setting that offsets this...I always try to use the uncompressed codecs when playing Bluray, which I realize increases the dynamic range over DVD codecs, but I wouldn't expect such a huge overall level difference in say, dialogue scenes, which is what I'm comparing. Any insight here, or do I need to just get over it?
Why not just use uncompressed for both? Another option is also connecting optical from the BDP to the AVR (assigning the optical input to BDP as well) and setting the INPUT MODE to "Digital" when watching DVDs (you can also use a Quick Select button for this as well). Further volume control can be done by using the SOURCE LEVEL setting to adjust the volume for each input.

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post #9474 of 9870 Old 11-29-2014, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Why not just use uncompressed for both? Another option is also connecting optical from the BDP to the AVR (assigning the optical input to BDP as well) and setting the INPUT MODE to "Digital" when watching DVDs (you can also use a Quick Select button for this as well). Further volume control can be done by using the SOURCE LEVEL setting to adjust the volume for each input.
Thanks for your input, but I'm now more confused. So let me clarify my situation...I'm playing bluray discs and DVD discs on the same BD player. That is the source. So using SOURCE LEVEL will raise the level of everything played on that source, but the problem is the level between the the two types of discs. As far as using uncompressed for both...I'm not sure what you mean...DVD's don't use anything BUT compressed audio. Finally, I know there is a raging debate about real-world ability to hear the difference, but I'm not going back to optical from my bluray player because it not have the bandwidth to carry uncompressed audio codecs.

So, to recap, the problem is that bluray discs are louder than DVD discs in the same player...is there a setting in the DENON (or possibly my bluray player, which is a Panasonic BDT-210) to detect the type of disc or codec and offset this difference?
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post #9475 of 9870 Old 11-29-2014, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gracepreacher View Post

So, to recap, the problem is that bluray discs are louder than DVD discs in the same player...is there a setting in the DENON (or possibly my bluray player, which is a Panasonic BDT-210) to detect the type of disc or codec and offset this difference?
No, there is no such setting in the Denon, and I doubt if there is one in your player. However, you could use a coaxial audio output from your player for DVDs; and HDMI for BluRays, and then set SOURCE LEVEL in the Denon to give you the same level for each type of disc.

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post #9476 of 9870 Old 11-29-2014, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HMNavy View Post
Netflix Titles "Chirping" Noise: Breaking Bad s01e01: 3:30-4:00
Hunger Games: 15:00-16:00
Bad Santa: 6:30-7:00

Please ensure that the source is bitstreaming DD+ to the AVR then decoded to be able to effectively reproduce this problem.
Played BB and Bad Santa on Netflix off the Xbox One, Bitstream out, no chirping on the X4000.

BB does have some odd sounds in there and a bird chirp right at the end of the titles, then the show opens with birds and crickets, but I'm sure that's not what you're talking about.

EDIT: Just played both using my Sony BD player and no weird sounds.

I didn't notice it since I'm just searching this thread now for something I just read a couple days ago, but have you posted an audio clip of what you are hearing? If not, would you do so?

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post #9477 of 9870 Old 11-29-2014, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by pbarach View Post
No, there is no such setting in the Denon, and I doubt if there is one in your player. However, you could use a coaxial audio output from your player for DVDs; and HDMI for BluRays, and then set SOURCE LEVEL in the Denon to give you the same level for each type of disc.
What a great idea, pbarach. So, you are saying I could send the video out of the BD player via two different cables, but going to two different inputs on the Denon? Then, after leveling the inputs using SOURCE LEVEL, I would select the input according to the disc type? Will both video signals be on simultaneously, or is there a chance my player will try to be smart and pick one (override)?
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post #9478 of 9870 Old 11-29-2014, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
This happens because you have HDMI(ARC) set up on the TV to pass TV smart app audio back to the AVR. If you are not using this feature, set HDMI-CEC on your TV to OFF or HIDE the TV audio source on the X3000.
Thanks,. I was afraid of that. I would like to keep using ARC from time to time. It's not a huge issue to press "help" every once in a while.
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post #9479 of 9870 Old 11-29-2014, 06:00 PM
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Thanks for your input, but I'm now more confused. So let me clarify my situation...I'm playing bluray discs and DVD discs on the same BD player. That is the source. So using SOURCE LEVEL will raise the level of everything played on that source, but the problem is the level between the the two types of discs. As far as using uncompressed for both...I'm not sure what you mean...DVD's don't use anything BUT compressed audio. Finally, I know there is a raging debate about real-world ability to hear the difference, but I'm not going back to optical from my bluray player because it not have the bandwidth to carry uncompressed audio codecs.

So, to recap, the problem is that bluray discs are louder than DVD discs in the same player...is there a setting in the DENON (or possibly my bluray player, which is a Panasonic BDT-210) to detect the type of disc or codec and offset this difference?
Note I suggested sending audio from two different cables .. one HDMI (BDs) and one optical (DVDs) and use a separate Source level for each. As BDs also generally only have compressed codecs, I assumed you meant you let the BDP decode the audio rather than having the AVR do it.

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post #9480 of 9870 Old 11-29-2014, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Note I suggested sending audio from two different cables .. one HDMI (BDs) and one optical (DVDs) and use a separate Source level for each. As BDs also generally only have compressed codecs, I assumed you meant you let the BDP decode the audio rather than having the AVR do it.
I thought BDs had the UNcompressed codecs? Wait...I just looked this up...I should have been saying "lossless" instead of "compressed". Blurays have lossless codecs, so I want to still use HDMI to get the full bandwidth of those, right?
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