The 'Official' 2013 Denon "E Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 373 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11161 of 11173 Old 05-18-2015, 03:40 PM
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I'm having difficulty determining the cause of my X4000's problem, and would appreciate some feedback: I've been having the random shut down issue (red blinking lights) with the receiver since the summer of 2014. The problem went away for a few months after I swapped an old speaker wire, but it recently came back for no apparent reason. Last month it would shut down even with no speakers connected. Denon suggested a microprocessor reset, so I did that, and it ran ok with two speakers several times, but after I connected more speakers, it would shut down again. But today I switched the center speaker and it's been running ok with L/C/R+sub speakers for a couple hours -- but that doesn't mean the problem won't come back. Basically I'm not sure what's wrong: the receiver, one or more speakers, one or more speaker wires, or something else.

Do you guys think I should keep testing this, or try to send it in for repair even though I haven't isolated the problem?
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post #11162 of 11173 Old 05-18-2015, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shunx View Post
I'm having difficulty determining the cause of my X4000's problem, and would appreciate some feedback: I've been having the random shut down issue (red blinking lights) with the receiver since the summer of 2014. The problem went away for a few months after I swapped an old speaker wire, but it recently came back for no apparent reason. Last month it would shut down even with no speakers connected. Denon suggested a microprocessor reset, so I did that, and it ran ok with two speakers several times, but after I connected more speakers, it would shut down again. But today I switched the center speaker and it's been running ok with L/C/R+sub speakers for a couple hours -- but that doesn't mean the problem won't come back. Basically I'm not sure what's wrong: the receiver, one or more speakers, one or more speaker wires, or something else.

Do you guys think I should keep testing this, or try to send it in for repair even though I haven't isolated the problem?
That depends on several factors. Would the problem be repeatable at the repair facility? If you can eliminate your speakers or connecting wires as causes, like when it shut down with nothing connected, that makes it more likely that the repair facility can agree that the receiver has a problem.

Do you still have warranty remaining? If so, then all it will cost you is getting it to the repair shop. However, be aware that the shop and Denon may decide to send you back a factory refurbished unit instead of trouble-shooting and repairing your original unit. That is what has happened to me. My X4000 developed network problems that only resets and unplugging would temporarily fix, so I shipped it to an authorized service center for warranty repair. After about ten days, without any communications from Denon or the service center I received a refurbished X4000. And wouldn't you know it, the refurb had the same network problem as my original unit. So now after a few phone conversations with Denon customer service, I have shipped the refurb back to Denon (they sent a FedEx label) and I am awaiting my next X4000.
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post #11163 of 11173 Old 05-18-2015, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by tcassette View Post
That depends on several factors. Would the problem be repeatable at the repair facility? If you can eliminate your speakers or connecting wires as causes, like when it shut down with nothing connected, that makes it more likely that the repair facility can agree that the receiver has a problem.

Do you still have warranty remaining? If so, then all it will cost you is getting it to the repair shop. However, be aware that the shop and Denon may decide to send you back a factory refurbished unit instead of trouble-shooting and repairing your original unit. That is what has happened to me. My X4000 developed network problems that only resets and unplugging would temporarily fix, so I shipped it to an authorized service center for warranty repair. After about ten days, without any communications from Denon or the service center I received a refurbished X4000. And wouldn't you know it, the refurb had the same network problem as my original unit. So now after a few phone conversations with Denon customer service, I have shipped the refurb back to Denon (they sent a FedEx label) and I am awaiting my next X4000.
While my receiver did shut down with nothing connected, the problem cannot be duplicated after a microprocessor reset.

I'm testing different speaker setups and I noticed that the X4000 shut down within minutes after I connected my Klipsch center speaker (purchased new at the same time as the X4000), while it played for hours with an old Sony center speaker, using the same speaker wire. I connected the Sony speaker back, and no shut down so far. Does anyone know what this could mean -- a bad speaker, bad receiver configuration or some kind of hardware incompatibility? Both speakers have the same 8ohm impedance. I'm trying to see if the Klipsch center will cause problems at a different receiver. (Update: actually, I'm not sure a bad center speaker would explain why my X4000 also shut itself down yesterday when no center speaker was connected and only surround speakers were connected). (Update2: it shut down again anyway so it's not just the center speaker speaker. It might be due to the volume level.)

There are Denon service centers (ie repair shops) in my city so shipping is not a big issue.

Last edited by shunx; 05-19-2015 at 12:18 AM.
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post #11164 of 11173 Old 05-19-2015, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post
Welcome to the "Protection Mode" club! You have been reading the thread, right? I only ask because the way you framed the question made it seem like you think your problem is unique. It's actually scarily common with the X4000.

I spoke with Denon technical support and, of course, they don't know of any "particular issue" with these premature shut-downs. Of course.

I then called United Radio, the "factory authorized service center" in New York and they seem to have a lot of these units coming back for this problem. Their solution, according to the girl who answers the phones (They won't let you talk to an actual repair tech -- she says they don't have any phones back there. Probably interferes with their gas lanterns.) said they typically "replace a few transistors" and ship it back out.

What I want to know, what everyone who has suffered this problem wants to know, is what is causing it? Is is some design flaw? If it's this common it must be, right? And what is the repair protocol that can permanently fix it? I've got too much invested in this thing to just pay the freight to ship it up there and have it come back with the same problem that will manifest itself again after the warranty runs out. Which, in my case, is in about 3 weeks.
Denon always used to have separate protection inside the actual power supply (would imagine they follow a similar topology still today). Usually heat caused from people driving things a little too hard in enclosed cabinets would trip this and require a trip to the doctor, since a reset wouldn't work for long if at all. It almost seems the best remedy would be to replace the transformer itself with a less-sensitive upgrade, but that would be a large endeavor from Denon to make different/new units for this issue.
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post #11165 of 11173 Old 05-19-2015, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shunx View Post
I'm having difficulty determining the cause of my X4000's problem, and would appreciate some feedback: I've been having the random shut down issue (red blinking lights) with the receiver since the summer of 2014. The problem went away for a few months after I swapped an old speaker wire, but it recently came back for no apparent reason. Last month it would shut down even with no speakers connected. Denon suggested a microprocessor reset, so I did that, and it ran ok with two speakers several times, but after I connected more speakers, it would shut down again. But today I switched the center speaker and it's been running ok with L/C/R+sub speakers for a couple hours -- but that doesn't mean the problem won't come back. Basically I'm not sure what's wrong: the receiver, one or more speakers, one or more speaker wires, or something else.

Do you guys think I should keep testing this, or try to send it in for repair even though I haven't isolated the problem?
Welcome to the "Protection Mode" club! You have been reading the thread, right? I only ask because the way you framed the question made it seem like you think your problem is unique. It's actually scarily common with the X4000. The type and number of speakers you use (my setup is completely different) seems to make no difference.

I spoke with Denon technical support and, of course, they don't know of any "particular issue" with these premature shut-downs. Of course.

I then called United Radio, the "factory authorized service center" in New York and they seem to have a lot of these units coming back for this problem. Their solution, according to the girl who answers the phones (They won't let you talk to an actual repair tech -- she says they don't have any phones back there. Probably interferes with their gas lanterns.) said they typically "replace a few transistors" and ship it back out.

What I want to know, what everyone who has suffered this problem wants to know, is what is causing it? Is is some design flaw? If it's this common it must be, right? And what is the repair protocol that can permanently fix it? Denon doesn't even seem to be aware there is a systematic problem with the protection circuit. Or, more likely, they are aware and just won't admit it.

I've got too much invested in this thing to just pay the freight to ship it up there and have it come back with the same problem that will manifest itself again after the warranty runs out. Which, in my case, is in about 3 weeks.

edit: my post should have come before DeuceNine's post above. Caught me in a edit/delete/repost (AVS doesn't give you enough time to edit a post before adding the edit tag). But thanks for the info Deuce.
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post #11166 of 11173 Old Yesterday, 12:14 PM
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+1 to above. My X-4000 has died with very similar symptoms (shutdowns even with zero connected cables othern than power, crackling from channels) and I'm reluctant to send it to repair if I'll get a refurbished unit - it might just die again just as warranty expires. I'd love to hear a proper technical explanation for these problems.
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post #11167 of 11173 Old Yesterday, 05:07 PM
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Any Reason to Upgrade Firmware?

As of right now I have not connected my x4000 up to the internet. I don't use any of the internet feature of the unit. However, I was wondering if there was any important firmware updates that I might need. Everything seems to be working great right now, including HDCP so I don't want to update if there isn't a real reason to or if there were any potential broken firmware updates. Thanks.
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post #11168 of 11173 Old Yesterday, 05:18 PM
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^^
You can review the firmware change log in post ##6 of this thread.

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post #11169 of 11173 Old Yesterday, 07:16 PM
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^^
You can review the firmware change log in post ##6 of this thread.
Thanks! Are the problems listed in the changelog what has been fixed or what is now the result of having updated to the newer firmware?
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post #11170 of 11173 Old Yesterday, 08:25 PM
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After some testing, I found a way to trigger the unexpected protection mode on my X4000: I needed to plug in at least 3 speakers and run it at reference volume (0dB or 80/99). If I did this, it triggered a shut down every time within 2 hours, even with a microprocessor reset. If I only used two speakers, it may not shut down.

I'll contact the local service center to see what they can do.
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post #11171 of 11173 Old Yesterday, 08:59 PM
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This only happens at reference level, and after 2 hours?
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post #11172 of 11173 Old Today, 03:16 AM
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Thanks! Are the problems listed in the changelog what has been fixed or what is now the result of having updated to the newer firmware?
What has been fixed.

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post #11173 of 11173 Old Today, 12:14 PM
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This only happens at reference level, and after 2 hours?
Not mine. It just shuts down randomly. It started working properly again for a few days, then the problem reappeared. Which is especially vexing (but might be a clue for those with enough technical knowledge). Now it's back to shutting down a few seconds after turning it on.
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