The 'Official' 2013 Denon "E Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 418 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12511 of 12696 Old 10-04-2016, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by seggers View Post
Well, it's time for me to bow out of this thread. My X6300H is downstairs, still in its box, and the X4000 days are numbered. I see a 'bay' in its future....

Have fun folks....

Seggers

Sounds great, nice upgrade! I sold my X4000 on eBay about two weeks ago for $480 including shipping.

-Tom
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post #12512 of 12696 Old 10-06-2016, 11:09 AM
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About 6+mo ago the AirPlay on my x4000 stopped working or even popping up as an option on any of my devices. Despite all the helpful options I was given here, it never has worked again. So I put my airport express back in the chain and it's been fine.
Well, I moved last weekend and got my services transferred to the new house (right next door). I'm still getting all the gear hooked up, but when I went to AirPlay to the AE, the denon popped up! A new router/modem combo was installed with the service so I'm guessing the initial problem was with my router and not the avr. I was pretty close to sending it for repair again, but glad I don't have to worry about it anymore.
I'm sure y'all have been on pins and needles all these months worrying about my streaming situation, just wanted to post an update and put your minds at ease


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post #12513 of 12696 Old 10-15-2016, 09:39 AM
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I use an x4000. Is there a way to have a subwoofer play while in Stereo mode?

The sub is working fine in multi-channel modes, but does not function while in Stereo mode. My left and right speakers are bookshelves that only go down to 60 Hz or so reasonably, so I need the sub to get the full range. I have the left and right mains set as small and crossover at 80 Hz. "Subwoofer Level" is available in the "Audio" menu and can be adjusted, but it has no effect since the sub is not playing. The test tone in "Speakers / Manual Setup" does play through the sub.

Any ideas are greatly appreciated.

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post #12514 of 12696 Old 10-15-2016, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by reachforit108 View Post
I use an x4000. Is there a way to have a subwoofer play while in Stereo mode?

The sub is working fine in multi-channel modes, but does not function while in Stereo mode.
Sounds familiar! if I remember right, you have to set it to LFE+main where main means the frequencies below the crossovers.
If you set it to LFE, only the LFE channel (e.g. .1 of 5.1) is sent to the sub.

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post #12515 of 12696 Old 10-15-2016, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Gerhard_Bader View Post
Sounds familiar! if I remember right, you have to set it to LFE+main where main means the frequencies below the crossovers.
If you set it to LFE, only the LFE channel (e.g. .1 of 5.1) is sent to the sub.

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Thanks for the idea. I hope that using the LFE + Mains setting is not my only option. I would greatly prefer to not play low frequencies on both my sub and mains simultaneously, especially when that would also apply to multi-channel sources, which are currently working correctly.

Are there other options available?
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post #12516 of 12696 Old 10-15-2016, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by reachforit108 View Post
I would greatly prefer to not play low frequencies on both my sub and mains simultaneously
No worries, you just have to set all your speakers to be SMALL instead of LARGE, then everything below the crossovers goes to the sub only, plus LFE as a whole.

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post #12517 of 12696 Old 10-15-2016, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Gerhard_Bader View Post
No worries, you just have to set all your speakers to be SMALL instead of LARGE, then everything below the crossovers goes to the sub only, plus LFE as a whole.

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So, I tested LFE+Main and it does not activate the sub in Stereo mode. Is there a setting I am missing or is this a limitation of the x4000?
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post #12518 of 12696 Old 10-15-2016, 07:30 PM
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^^ I am seeing the same thing on my X4000 (seems like a bug/limitation that has not been addressed to date?). In order to get the low end from the subs, I have gone to DTS Neo-Music as a compromise. It leaves the FR and FL channels untouched, just adds in the appropriate "ambience" (at least what it considers as such, as opposed to Pro-Logic II-Music, which has a lot of unnecessary steering logic going on), and I get the low end back...

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One sub to rumble them all. One sub to shake them. One sub to humble them all. And in the darkness break them....

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post #12519 of 12696 Old 10-15-2016, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Vader424242 View Post
^^ I am seeing the same thing on my X4000 (seems like a bug/limitation that has not been addressed to date?). In order to get the low end from the subs, I have gone to DTS Neo-Music as a compromise. It leaves the FR and FL channels untouched, just adds in the appropriate "ambience" (at least what it considers as such, as opposed to Pro-Logic II-Music, which has a lot of unnecessary steering logic going on), and I get the low end back...
Yes, I agree with you. DTS music processing does create less dramatic surround effects than Dolby music. I use Dolby music also, but I really wish I could just use the sub with FR and FL without any multi-channel processing. Is there truly no setting in the receiver to resolve this issue?
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post #12520 of 12696 Old 10-15-2016, 09:43 PM
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^^ Not that I have found, but if you find anything please post back here, and I will do the same....

Peace... Vader
 

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One sub to rumble them all. One sub to shake them. One sub to humble them all. And in the darkness break them....

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post #12521 of 12696 Old 10-16-2016, 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted by reachforit108 View Post
Is there a setting I am missing or is this a limitation of the x4000?
It cannot be a general limitation. It's been working fine for me forever on X4000. FL and FR speakers must be set to small, but I understand you got that. I have crossover at 40 Hertz for my fronts.
Will review my setup, and report bit later.

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post #12522 of 12696 Old 10-16-2016, 09:28 AM
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Sub works fine on Stereo for me set to small and xo 60. I also use the DeRemote app (worth every penny of the $5 cost) and can toggle the sub on/off, adjust channel trims, etc..


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post #12523 of 12696 Old 10-16-2016, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerhard_Bader View Post
It cannot be a general limitation. It's been working fine for me forever on X4000.
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Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post
Sub works fine on Stereo for me set to small and xo 60.
Interesting (though not surprising.... I am far from an "expert" on AVR settings). In my case, when using stereo, the subs (dual SVS PC13U in my case) are utterly silent, but when I engage DTS Neo at the same MV level w/ the same source material, I get my low end back. I have all channels set to small, with an XO of 80Hz for the FR and FL. What am I missing?

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post #12524 of 12696 Old 10-16-2016, 05:28 PM
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Yes, just to reiterate, my sub works fine on all multi-channel modes. It just doesn't work when "stereo" playback mode is selected. I have my mains set to small and an 80hz crossover, and I have tried every setting I can find to no avail. If your sub is working during "stereo" 2 channel playback, can you please let us know the settings you are using, beyond setting the mains to small and choosing a crossover? Any further information is greatly appreciated.
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post #12525 of 12696 Old 10-17-2016, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reachforit108 View Post
I use an x4000. Is there a way to have a subwoofer play while in Stereo mode?

The sub is working fine in multi-channel modes, but does not function while in Stereo mode. My left and right speakers are bookshelves that only go down to 60 Hz or so reasonably, so I need the sub to get the full range. I have the left and right mains set as small and crossover at 80 Hz. "Subwoofer Level" is available in the "Audio" menu and can be adjusted, but it has no effect since the sub is not playing. The test tone in "Speakers / Manual Setup" does play through the sub.

Any ideas are greatly appreciated.
By factory default, the X4000 should pass audio to the sub when the STEREO surround mode is selected as long as the FL/FR speakers are reset to SMALL after running Audyssey; however, if the "2CH Playback" setting (p. 187 Owner's manual) has been changed from the factory default of "Auto" (ie. follow multi channel settings) to "Manual" (ie. follow custom settings) the FL/FR speakers will default to LARGE with the sub set to LFE which would result in no audio being passed to the sub when a stereo 2.0 signal is being received and the STEREO surround mode is selected.
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post #12526 of 12696 Old 10-17-2016, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
By factory default, the X4000 should pass audio to the sub when the STEREO surround mode is selected as long as the FL/FR speakers are reset to SMALL after running Audyssey; however, if the "2CH Playback" setting (p. 187 Owner's manual) has been changed from the factory default of "Auto" (ie. follow multi channel settings) to "Manual" (ie. follow custom settings) the FL/FR speakers will default to LARGE with the sub set to LFE which would result in no audio being passed to the sub when a stereo 2.0 signal is being received and the STEREO surround mode is selected.
Thank you for the suggestion. I read the section in the owner's manual starting with p.187 with great interest.

My Amp Assign setting was +Zone 2, so the "Front Speaker Setup" and 2ch Playback settings in Speakers/Manual Setup were greyed out and unavailable. However, with nothing to lose, I switched the Amp Assign to + Front B, and then I was able to set Front Speaker Setup to "A" (both options) and 2ch Playback to "Auto". After exiting the menu, my subwoofer did play in Stereo sound mode. However, I have zone 2 speakers and need to use the x4000 amps to power them.

So, I switched Amp Assign back to + Zone 2, and lo and behold, my subwoofer continued to work while in Stereo sound mode! Yeah !

Thanks very much for the tip and the manual reference.
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post #12527 of 12696 Old 10-24-2016, 02:19 PM
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How to do reset when you can't turn off the power

My x4000 suddenly stopped responding to the POWER commands, either on the remote or on the face of the unit. When POWER is pressed, the display reads MAIN ZONE OFF, and the receiver does not turn off (the light under the POWER button remains green). Pressing POWER again, the display reads MAIN ZONE ON.

I unplugged the power cord overnight. When I plugged it in again, it read MAIN ZONE ON and continued with the same odd behavior.

Since the microprocessor reset sequence requires pressing the POWER button aloing with other buttons, is there some other way to do the reset?

Very frustrated with this unit, which is recently back from a trip to United Radio for an unrelated issue for warranty repair (headphone jack was defective). Oh, and the unit previously went to Panurgy six months after purchase for the flashing red light syndrome.

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Denon x4000, Carver m1.0t, Samsung LED TV, B&W 704 mains, two M&K subwoofers, Oppo 103, Roku 2, etc.
Headphone system: Sennheiser HD600, AKG K702, Hifiman HE-400i, Marantz HD-DAC1 (also used for music playback in the main system, Marantz CD5004, Denon DVD-3910
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post #12528 of 12696 Old 10-24-2016, 02:52 PM
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How to do reset when you can't turn off the power

My x4000 suddenly stopped responding to the POWER commands, either on the remote or on the face of the unit. When POWER is pressed, the display reads MAIN ZONE OFF, and the receiver does not turn off (the light under the POWER button remains green). Pressing POWER again, the display reads MAIN ZONE ON.

I unplugged the power cord overnight. When I plugged it in again, it read MAIN ZONE ON and continued with the same odd behavior.

Since the microprocessor reset sequence requires pressing the POWER button aloing with other buttons, is there some other way to do the reset?

Very frustrated with this unit, which is recently back from a trip to United Radio for an unrelated issue for warranty repair (headphone jack was defective). Oh, and the unit previously went to Panurgy six months after purchase for the flashing red light syndrome.
You apparently had the remote set to either Zone 2 or Zone 3 which is why it was reading "Main Zone Off". Simply select the Main Zone button and you'll have access to the main zone again.

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post #12529 of 12696 Old 10-24-2016, 03:31 PM
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You apparently had the remote set to either Zone 2 or Zone 3 which is why it was reading "Main Zone Off". Simply select the Main Zone button and you'll have access to the main zone again.
That's not the problem.

I've had the receiver power cord out all day. I reinserted the power cord and the receiver went on without my pushing any buttons. The dial read, AV SURROUND RECEIVER and then switched to my CABLE TV input, which was the last one I'd used. Pushing MAIN ZONE or either of the other two ZONE switches on the remote produces no response from the receiver. I can change inputs and operate everything else, but I cannot turn the power off. Specifically, if I press POWER on the remote or the ON/STANDBY button on the AVR, the dial setting cycles between MAIN ZONE ON and MAIN ZONE OFF, but the receiver never turns off, and the green indicator light remains green (never goes into STANDBY).

UPDATE: I SAVEd the settings file on my PC and the Denon then powered itself completely off, as it always does when you do a SAVE. OK, now it works fine. Odd...

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Denon x4000, Carver m1.0t, Samsung LED TV, B&W 704 mains, two M&K subwoofers, Oppo 103, Roku 2, etc.
Headphone system: Sennheiser HD600, AKG K702, Hifiman HE-400i, Marantz HD-DAC1 (also used for music playback in the main system, Marantz CD5004, Denon DVD-3910

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post #12530 of 12696 Old 10-28-2016, 10:56 AM
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Question (AVR X-4000): if Amp Assign is set to 5.1ch(Bi-Amp), is it still possible to make use of Zone 2 or 3, if connecting to an external Amp using two of the pre-outs ?

I used to have the Bi-Amp setup which proved to get me higher SPL and increased sound quality (at high volumes) on my fronts, but had to dismiss it since I added Zone 3, so looking at options to get it back.

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post #12531 of 12696 Old 10-28-2016, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Gerhard_Bader View Post
Question (AVR X-4000): if Amp Assign is set to 5.1ch(Bi-Amp), is it still possible to make use of Zone 2 or 3, if connecting to an external Amp using two of the pre-outs ?

I used to have the Bi-Amp setup which proved to get me higher SPL and increased sound quality (at high volumes) on my fronts, but had to dismiss it since I added Zone 3, so looking at options to get it back.

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Yes, the Zone 2/3 pre-outs are totally independent from the on board amp settings. Note however, that as there is only a single power supply, the bi-amp feature on the AVR will not provide any additional power.
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post #12532 of 12696 Old 11-04-2016, 04:09 AM
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Sorry if this is a dumb question but it has been a while since I did some fiddling and I can't find what I am looking for: how can I tell what trim level Audyssey set my sub at during the calibration process? (X4000)
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post #12533 of 12696 Old 11-04-2016, 07:35 AM
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Sorry if this is a dumb question but it has been a while since I did some fiddling and I can't find what I am looking for: how can I tell what trim level Audyssey set my sub at during the calibration process? (X4000)
Try Setup > Speakers > Audyssey Setup > Check Results (see page 180 of your manual).
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post #12534 of 12696 Old 11-04-2016, 08:34 AM
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Sorry if this is a dumb question but it has been a while since I did some fiddling and I can't find what I am looking for: how can I tell what trim level Audyssey set my sub at during the calibration process? (X4000)
Another option which also provides the ability to modify the original setting is SETUP - SPEAKERS - MANUAL SETUP - LEVELS - TEST TONE START - SUBWOOFER.
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post #12535 of 12696 Old 11-04-2016, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan in St. Louis View Post
Try Setup > Speakers > Audyssey Setup > Check Results (see page 180 of your manual).
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Another option which also provides the ability to modify the original setting is SETUP - SPEAKERS - MANUAL SETUP - LEVELS - TEST TONE START - SUBWOOFER.
OK, that's where it was hiding. Thank you! The value was exactly 0 dB which is probably why I forgot what it was

I had an additional question. It regards running my sub hot. In the Audyssey FAQ, specifically here,

"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)

it talks about adjusting the sub gain so that the AVR sub trim is between +/-3.5 dB. But later on in that section the comment by Mark Seaton seems to suggest that it's more important that the master volume + the sub trim combined don't exceed 0 dB. Am I understanding this correctly?

Edit: so it is ok to have a large sub trim of say +10 dB if the master volume is sufficiently low, in this case, -10 dB or less?

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post #12536 of 12696 Old 11-05-2016, 01:52 AM
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OK, that's where it was hiding. Thank you! The value was exactly 0 dB which is probably why I forgot what it was

I had an additional question. It regards running my sub hot. In the Audyssey FAQ, specifically here,

"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)

it talks about adjusting the sub gain so that the AVR sub trim is between +/-3.5 dB. But later on in that section the comment by Mark Seaton seems to suggest that it's more important that the master volume + the sub trim combined don't exceed 0 dB. Am I understanding this correctly?

Edit: so it is ok to have a large sub trim of say +10 dB if the master volume is sufficiently low, in this case, -10 dB or less?

The statements are indeed somewhat contradictory and confusing (ie. 0db vs. +/-3.5db).

The bottom line is that if you prefer boosting the sub trim upwards of +10db after running Audyssey, the suggestion is to simply increase the sub gain knob (prior to running Audyssey) such that the sub trim = -10db after running Audyssey so then you can raise it +10db in Manual Setup so as to not go over 0db for the trim level. As a general rule, you never want to raise the master volume of the AVR above 80/0db to ensure there is still sufficient headroom available.
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post #12537 of 12696 Old 11-05-2016, 06:31 PM
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The statements are indeed somewhat contradictory and confusing (ie. 0db vs. +/-3.5db).

The bottom line is that if you prefer boosting the sub trim upwards of +10db after running Audyssey, the suggestion is to simply increase the sub gain knob (prior to running Audyssey) such that the sub trim = -10db after running Audyssey so then you can raise it +10db in Manual Setup so as to not go over 0db for the trim level. As a general rule, you never want to raise the master volume of the AVR above 80/0db to ensure there is still sufficient headroom available.
Thanks again for the reply.

I understand what you are saying regarding increasing the sub gain knob to have a lower starting sub trim. I don't really want to do this if I can avoid it so that I can avoid taking new measurements with REW (each time I do this I have to lug a desktop computer to my AV room).

I suppose I was just wondering whether having a large positive sub trim in and of itself can cause issues? Mark seemed to indicate it was OK (as long as the MV was correspondingly not too high). Anyway, it's OK if you're not really sure. I just thought someone might know.

BTW, I rarely run my sub hot. If I do it is usually no more than 1 or 2 dB for some films. It is only in a few cases that I go higher: the highest boost I have used is 7 dB for War of the Worlds.
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post #12538 of 12696 Old 11-07-2016, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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I suppose I was just wondering whether having a large positive sub trim in and of itself can cause issues? Mark seemed to indicate it was OK (as long as the MV was correspondingly not too high). Anyway, it's OK if you're not really sure. I just thought someone might know.
It's really a gray area -- the important thing to understand is that the RCA pre-out to the subwoofer amplifier is at the most basic level just outputting an electrical voltage. The subwoofer amplifier takes that input voltage from the receiver, attenuates it via the gain knob on the back of the sub, and then amplifies it.

The higher the volume, the greater the output voltage of the pre-out signal. However, at certain point, due to the constraints of consumer gear design, that output signal from the receiver will clip (there won't be enough headroom to output the full voltage). This can be impacted by the overall master volume, the specific subwoofer channel trim, and also redirected bass from other channels due to bass management (if all your speakers are set to "small" then the voltage will clip at a lower volume).

For most people it's a non issue -- if you listen at -20dB, then you've got plenty of headroom left in the digital volume circuits, so a sub trim of +7 won't get you into the clipping zone. But, if you listen LOUD, and are regularly approaching reference volumes, and you have all speakers set to "small" so the sub out is carrying even more of the load, then you could run into an issue with the signal clipping on loud dynamic LFE passages.

If that's the case, and you want to be safe, you want the sub trim to be below 0dB on the receiver which will reduce the chance of that kind of SW OUT signal clipping. The thing is, once the signal has clipped, you can't lower the gain on the sub to "recover" that clipped signal -- it's already been clipped by the receiver output before it ever gets to the sub. So if you calibrate such that the SW OUT is at a lower level, then you reduce the probability of clipping, and then raise the gain knob on the subwoofer to compensate (the input stage on the SW will not attenuate the input signal voltage as much) which is a "safer" way to do it.

TL;DR - It's only something to worry about if you listen REALLY LOUD.

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post #12539 of 12696 Old 11-07-2016, 01:07 PM
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I think just to be safe, I will try turning the gain on my sub up a notch. I have a faint recollection of trying this before and getting a very negative sub trim but I can't remember exactly how negative, ie whether it was around -5 dB or more like -10 dB. Anyway, it probably doesn't matter. Perhaps my hang up at the time was the +/- 3.5 dB sub trim recommendation.

Here is a slightly different question. Consider these two scenarios:

1. MV = 0 dB, sub trim = 0 dB
2. MV = - 5 dB, sub trim = +5 dB

Notice that MV + sub trim = 0 dB in both cases. My question is: will the sub receive exactly the same signal in both scenarios?

I would of thought the answer was yes. The only way it could be no is if the AVR creates the sub signal in two separate amplification stages, the first applying the sub trim and the second applying the MV. If this is what happens then scenario 2 above might cause problems as it would be more likely to introduce clipping in the "sub trim amplification stage."
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post #12540 of 12696 Old 11-07-2016, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zzzzz... View Post
I think just to be safe, I will try turning the gain on my sub up a notch. I have a faint recollection of trying this before and getting a very negative sub trim but I can't remember exactly how negative, ie whether it was around -5 dB or more like -10 dB. Anyway, it probably doesn't matter. Perhaps my hang up at the time was the +/- 3.5 dB sub trim recommendation.
The +/- 3.5 thing was just a rule of thumb to avoid "extreme" trims, not a hard and fast rule. The downside of an extreme positive trim is that your SW OUT voltage will clip at a lower MV setting, and the downside of an extreme negative trim is that the "auto on" circuitry of the sub may fail to trigger properly (causing it to go to sleep / wake up frequently). Targeting a final trim close to 0 (note that this is after boost, e.g. if you plan to boost 6dB hot then you need to leave 'room' to boost it) is just a safe middle road to take. But I'm sure many people run trims greater than 4dB away from 0 and never have any problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zzzzz... View Post
Here is a slightly different question. Consider these two scenarios:

1. MV = 0 dB, sub trim = 0 dB
2. MV = - 5 dB, sub trim = +5 dB

Notice that MV + sub trim = 0 dB in both cases. My question is: will the sub receive exactly the same signal in both scenarios?
If you leave out managed bass redirected from other channels, the two scenarios above should be identical with respect to the final SW out voltage. However, in scenario 1, the load from bass managed speakers will be greater. Also, if you use Dynamic EQ, scenario 2 would hit the sub harder as DEQ would be boosting the bass at below-reference volumes.

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