The 'Official' 2013 Denon "E Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 9228 Old 05-05-2013, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
It makes the job of level matching and delay setting of dual subs much easier and accurate, although can be worked around manually with a SPL meter.
I see. Im choosing between X3000 and onkyo 818. I canget the onkyo for 540 bramd new. Is the 818 better than x3000?

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post #182 of 9228 Old 05-05-2013, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post




Been that way pretty much immediately after they were listed on their site. Denon has them on sale. As you said Denon will have them available soon as a for a direct purchase.

I believe the Denon web site lists the x1000 and x2000 as in stock. The 3000 and 4000 are listed as preorder.

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post #183 of 9228 Old 05-05-2013, 02:01 PM
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I've been looking at the 2113, but obviously want to think about the new X series now that it's out.

I can get a refurb 2113 from a4less for $400.

New X2000 for $649

In terms of features, the main difference that seems useful to me is the "video select" on the X2000 (separate video/audio source selection), that actually is something I want but not necessarily a $250 want. Otherwise very similar features.

Two questions:

1) Does anyone see any reason to expect a significant improvement in audio quality on the X2000 vs 2113? The "better DAC" discussion seemed mostly on the higher end models. Anythign else?

2) Any idea how long it typically takes for significantly discounted/refurb options to appear? I'd wait a couple of months for an X2000 at say $450, but if it means waiting until early 2014 I'll just go for the 2113 now.

EDIT: Hmm, just had a thought -- X1000 might be a good choice. I won't need more than 5.1 anytime soon, and while current refurb pricing made the 2113 a no-brainer up from the 1913, at $450 the X1000 should be enough.

Thanks -- really useful thread!
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post #184 of 9228 Old 05-05-2013, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Don't expect any difference in sound quality, just features.

Discounts should be available pretty quickly once authorized dealers get stock. You will have to call best pricing through.

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post #185 of 9228 Old 05-05-2013, 04:05 PM
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I pre ordered the x4000 at cruch, but I am looking at the 4520. I found prices of the 4520 about 300 more than the x4000. I don't plan on doing 11 speaker setup.

Should I call denon for the x4000 would it be faster than resellers?
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post #186 of 9228 Old 05-05-2013, 06:00 PM
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If I'm reading the X4000 manual correctly, it looks like you can pass HDMI audio through to Zone 2. Is that correct?

I haven't tracked changes in receivers for a while, and I found on batpig's page about Zone 2 usually requiring an Analog signal, which solved my problem for now with my 2805. I'm going to upgrade to the X4000, and HDMI audio to Zone 2 would be huge (for me)!
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post #187 of 9228 Old 05-05-2013, 06:11 PM
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Anyone know if the 4520 or new X series can be upgraded to DSX2? I don't know of any AVR's with this feature. Seems odd it's not on these new models...
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post #188 of 9228 Old 05-06-2013, 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted by thephatp View Post

If I'm reading the X4000 manual correctly, it looks like you can pass HDMI audio through to Zone 2. Is that correct?

I haven't tracked changes in receivers for a while, and I found on batpig's page about Zone 2 usually requiring an Analog signal, which solved my problem for now with my 2805. I'm going to upgrade to the X4000, and HDMI audio to Zone 2 would be huge (for me)!

Yes, correct. HDMI audio/video to Zone 2 was first introduced last year with the release of the 3313CI and the 4520CI via a dedicated HDMI output jack, while the new X3000/X4000 also add HDMI-->Zone 2 speaker posts/pre-outs, and all the "X" series models feature an "All Zone Stereo" feature to pass the same HDMI audio source playing in the main zone to Zones 2/3 (downmixing the main zone source to stereo as well).

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post #189 of 9228 Old 05-06-2013, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Yes, correct. HDMI audio/video to Zone 2 was first introduced last year with the release of the 3313CI and the 4520CI via a dedicated HDMI output jack, while the new X3000/X4000 also add HDMI-->Zone 2 speaker posts/pre-outs, and all the "X" series models feature an "All Zone Stereo" feature to pass the same HDMI audio source playing in the main zone to Zones 2/3 (downmixing the main zone source to stereo as well).

Thanks jdsmoothie! That's great news...the anticipation grows!

Any chance any of the online authorized dealers give discounts before the receivers are released? Or only once they have them in stock?
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post #190 of 9228 Old 05-06-2013, 07:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Why don't you try calling around?

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post #191 of 9228 Old 05-06-2013, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Why don't you try calling around?

I hope this is a sign... biggrin.gif

BTW, batpig, THANK YOU for this: http://batpigworld.com/wp/?p=160. It saved me many (additional) hours of frustration!
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post #192 of 9228 Old 05-06-2013, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by thephatp View Post

I hope this is a sign... biggrin.gif

BTW, batpig, THANK YOU for this: http://batpigworld.com/wp/?p=160. It saved me many (additional) hours of frustration!

Well, contacted 5 online retailers. 3 didn't have any info at all yet, 1 said you could pre-order, but wouldn't budge on the price right now, and the last one said they got some preliminary info just today, but didn't have details yet and would call me back. So, no luck this early, but I'm going to keep trying.
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post #193 of 9228 Old 05-06-2013, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by urbanmark View Post

Ok... super-interested in the multizone stuff from Batpig's post #143.

If I'm understanding it right, with an X3000 all my sources can be connected via HDMI and I can get the audio separated and down-mixed to the Zone 2 pre-outs that connect to my whole house amp? No need to run other audio connections from source devices?

If so, that's really cool.

As some clarification on my earlier post, some updated info:

- It is accurate that the X3000/X4000 can play ANY source, digital or analog, to other zones. However, for digital audio inputs, it will only work with a 2.0 PCM input stream. I now see this is noted clearly in the "Tips" section:




- My earlier thought was that you could play multich audio in main zone, and then the receiver would do a "background downmix" of the multich audio to 2.0 PCM when the ZONE 2 / HDMI AUDIO setting is set to "PCM". So, for example, you could be watching the football game in 5.1 Dolby Digital in Main Zone, and then play the audio from the game on the Zone 2 speakers in stereo with the main zone remaining on DD 5.1. However, this is not accurate -- the receiver itself doesn't do a downmix; rather, when you set that setting to "PCM", the EDID for the Zone 2 source is set to request 2.0 PCM from the SOURCE. So, in the example above, when Zone 2 and Main Zone are playing the same source (football game), the cable box would "see" that the EDID request is for 2.0 PCM, and would set itself to 2.0 PCM output. In other words, the source itself is forced to do the downmix to 2.0 PCM before the signal ever gets to the receiver, and thus the audio in BOTH zones will be 2.0 PCM. So the receiver would then switch to PLII Cinema (or whatever) to matrix the surround sound in Main Zone.

- If Main Zone and Zone 2 are not set to the same source, it's not an issue. So, for example, continuing with the example above. Let's say you have your cable box and Apple TV hooked up to the receiver with HDMI. You set the ZONE 2 / HDMI AUDIO setting to "PCM" to enable HDMI audio to Zone 2. You are watching the football game from the cable box in Main Zone, listening to the DD 5.1 broadcast. Now, you start streaming from music from the Apple TV to Zone 2. The Apple TV will see the EDID request from Zone 2 and provide "legal" 2.0 PCM output, and the HDMI audio will play in Zone 2 with no issues, and the football game will continue in 5.1 DD in Main Zone.


So, in simple terms -- whether you are using the HDMI Zone matrix output or the "standard" Zone 2/3 stereo audio output, if you select the same source for Main Zone and Zone 2/3, you will be limited by the "lowest common denominator" audio rule and the input signal will become 2.0 PCM stereo for all zones. If you select a different source for Zone 2/3 (or of course if Zone 2/3 is off) then the Main Zone will operate normally, and Zone 2/3 will seamlessly force a stereo downmix and can play digital sources without any additional cabling.

This is still a HUGE advance of course, as you finally can toss those analog RCA cables and play audio to any zone using only digital cables. Not quite the "holy grail" of a background downmix of multich digital input sources, but a huge step forward nonetheless.

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post #194 of 9228 Old 05-06-2013, 01:13 PM
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It looks like my waiting on upgrading from my 1611 to a 2113 has paid off. I expect that the price, for an AV2113, will get lower to sell off inventory, while the price of the X2000 may be discounted some to entice buying it instead. In all cases, the best bet is to call around. I also remember some deals, way back when, that got you an upgrade to a higher model, becuase the lower one was out of stock. Could we see the same thing happen, again?
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post #195 of 9228 Old 05-06-2013, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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My recollection was not that there were free upgrades to the higher model, rather that with certain retailers (e.g. Electronics-Expo) when you ordered the previous year's model, they gave you the current model for free because the older model was out of stock. For example, many people who ordered the 2112CI off of Electronic-Expo's Amazon store at a discounted price ended up getting the 2113CI instead.

I could see that happening again, but it's not something that can reliably be predicted. You will just have to stay on your toes and watch for someone to report it when (if) it happens.

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post #196 of 9228 Old 05-06-2013, 02:38 PM
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This is REALLY REALLY cool!!!

The attached picture shows the little speaker icons both for input signal and for your speaker configuration. Press info on the remote. This was done on our AVR-E400 showroom model.

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Denon.AVR-E400_INFO-ScreenShot.jpg 636k .jpg file
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post #197 of 9228 Old 05-06-2013, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow, that is a HUUUUUUGE improvement over the old INFO button display graphic. Maybe they were listening to me when I suggested this in my 2113CI review!! biggrin.gif

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post #198 of 9228 Old 05-06-2013, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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What's interesting is that this INFO graphic didn't make it into the E Series manual. I just checked the E300/E400 manuals and the example they provide looks like the old INFO button graphic, but this is what they show in the X Series manual:




That's awesome to know that this new graphic made it into the E Series. Really cool!!

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post #199 of 9228 Old 05-06-2013, 03:13 PM
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I am not sure if the E-300 has it, but I will hook up a TV to it and see. I have it in a rack for 2 channel use with a speaker switch.

I also own a 2113CI (in my computer room), and am so bummed it doesn't have it.

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post #200 of 9228 Old 05-06-2013, 05:12 PM
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I need to upgrade my 1910 to something that's 3D capable, and I'm having a hard time choosing between a 2313 ($599) or a X2000 ($649). The 2313 seems like a great bargain, and I like the extra component input and dual HDMI outs. The X2000 is a newer model with an updated GUI and an extra HDMI input. Is there anything else I should be aware of or consider? Both are very nice units and would work well with my setup and intended usage (TV, Blu-ray, some music). I'm just trying to make an educated decision and figured I should defer to those more knowledgeable than myself smile.gif
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post #201 of 9228 Old 05-06-2013, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Please read through the info I've assembled in the first thread concerning what has changed on the new models. If multizone functionality is a big selling point, there are some major changes in the X Series models that may be of interest to you. There are also some other minor changes (e.g., that new INFO button graphic posted above) that might be appealing.

Also note that the dual HDMI outs on the 2313CI are parallel outputs (e.g., for switching between two displays in the same room). Not sure what you are intending to use the dual outputs for, but the X3000 (replacement for the 2313CI) has dual HDMI outputs that are fully independent, i.e., you can send a separate HDMI source to another room while playing a different source in Main Zone.

The X3000 of course would be the best of both worlds, but it is more expensive at this point. All of the above models feature MultEQ XT so will be an upgrade in sound quality from your 1910, plus you will get cool network features, better video processing, and full graphic overlays for on-screen menus, volume display, etc.

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post #202 of 9228 Old 05-07-2013, 04:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Please read through the info I've assembled in the first thread concerning what has changed on the new models. If multizone functionality is a big selling point, there are some major changes in the X Series models that may be of interest to you. There are also some other minor changes (e.g., that new INFO button graphic posted above) that might be appealing.

Also note that the dual HDMI outs on the 2313CI are parallel outputs (e.g., for switching between two displays in the same room). Not sure what you are intending to use the dual outputs for, but the X3000 (replacement for the 2313CI) has dual HDMI outputs that are fully independent, i.e., you can send a separate HDMI source to another room while playing a different source in Main Zone.

The X3000 of course would be the best of both worlds, but it is more expensive at this point. All of the above models feature MultEQ XT so will be an upgrade in sound quality from your 1910, plus you will get cool network features, better video processing, and full graphic overlays for on-screen menus, volume display, etc.

Thanks for the info, batpig. I've read through the OP trying to identify what's important and what's not. Multizone functionality will not be utilized, so those improvements are not relevant. Regarding the dual HDMI outputs, my plan is to run both outs to different inputs on my TV. This will allow me to maintain different calibration settings on each input, which will be easier than adjusting settings on one input depending on the source.

I am a little confused about the difference with the HDMI Standby Passthrough and CEC. Also, both models offer identical 4k scaling/passthrough, right?

The updated INFO graphic and Video Select function are nice improvements, but I don't know that they're deal breakers.
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post #203 of 9228 Old 05-07-2013, 04:41 AM
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Does anyone know what video processing (scaler/deinterlacer) chip (chipset?) is in the X series? Is it capable of handling the 240p/288p output of old game consoles? I have a Faroudja-based 989 that cannot, but I've seen many posts/reports of people using the ABT based receivers (e.g., 3310/3311) with those and it appears to work fine for them. I haven't heard anything about the receivers that scale to 4k; that would certainly be a jump that would be likely to mean a new video chip/chipset.

Also, does anyone know if the video chip/chipset puts out a lot of heat in the X series? I got an impression that the 4k capable video chips use more power / generate more heat than before, even when not really in use - is that a correct impression?
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post #204 of 9228 Old 05-07-2013, 04:55 AM
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I just bought a 3313 from an online dealer specializing in 220v hardware as I'm moving to Europe on the 22nd of this month. Obviously, the news of X4000 is really bumming me out. I wonder if I can exchange it for the new one (if he even takes this one back) before the 22nd... frown.gif
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post #205 of 9228 Old 05-07-2013, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

My recollection was not that there were free upgrades to the higher model, rather that with certain retailers (e.g. Electronics-Expo) when you ordered the previous year's model, they gave you the current model for free because the older model was out of stock. For example, many people who ordered the 2112CI off of Electronic-Expo's Amazon store at a discounted price ended up getting the 2113CI instead.

I could see that happening again, but it's not something that can reliably be predicted. You will just have to stay on your toes and watch for someone to report it when (if) it happens.

This is exactly what I was referring to. But, I'm with you... it could happen, again. However, I wouldn't rely on it. I've learned from listenin' to JD, others, and you that one has to call to get the better price, though. A 2113CI or a X2000... time and price will tell. I think I'd be quite happy with either one.
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post #206 of 9228 Old 05-07-2013, 06:44 AM
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I should just stop reading this thread. If the 4000 did 11 channels I'd prolly order two of the damn things, lol. It really is about 98% of the way there for a guy like me who makes quite a few demands out of an AVR.

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post #207 of 9228 Old 05-07-2013, 07:51 AM
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Just to make it even more fun at this stage, I just did a quick check on the web, and Crutchfield lists the 2313CI at $50 lesss than their X2000 price. I haven't called anyone, yet. It just means that the 2313CI should be considered, as well. I need to and will go back and do a feature/price comparison, for the 2113CI, 2313CI, and X2000, and keep my ear to the rail.
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post #208 of 9228 Old 05-07-2013, 08:54 AM
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Hi,

Sorry to be a noob but does the X4000 have both Audyssey DSX and DTS Neo:X? If so, can one run both Wides AND Heights Simultaneously? I am looking for something that will allow a 9.1/9.2 configuration without having back surrounds.

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post #209 of 9228 Old 05-07-2013, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazzy View Post

Hi,

Sorry to be a noob but does the X4000 have both Audyssey DSX and DTS Neo:X? If so, can one run both Wides AND Heights Simultaneously? I am looking for something that will allow a 9.1/9.2 configuration without having back surrounds.

Bazzy!
Yes the 9.2 X4000 offers Audyssey DSX and DTS Neo:X.

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post #210 of 9228 Old 05-07-2013, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
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Yes the 9.2 X4000 offers Audyssey DSX and DTS Neo:X.

Hi,

That is excellent news - very many kind thanks for the info! Do you happen to know if one can then run both Wides AND Heights simultaneously if one doe not employ any Back Surround speakers?

Bazzy!
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Denon Avr 2309ci Receiver , Denon Avr4310ci Receiver , Denon , Denon Electronics , Polk Audio Monitor70 Series Ii Floorstanding Loudspeaker , Onkyo Tx Nr626 7 2 Channel Network Audio Video Receiver , Denon Avr E200 , Denon Avr E300 , Denon Avr E400 , Denon Avr X2000 7 1 Channel Home Theater Receiver , Denon Avr X3000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver , Denon Avr X1000 5 1 Channel Home Theater Receiver
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