Denon receiver and 16ohm help...... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 16 Old 03-30-2013, 07:38 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a denon avr-1712 that is 95watts at 8ohms per channel. I have two 8ohm speakers wired in series to each channel which would be 16ohms to the receiver. I assume this means the power to each speaker is far less than 95 watts.....how much power are they each receiving? If I get a different or external amp, how many watts at 8ohms would I need for the amp to push out over this 16ohm series channel to get 95-100 watts to each speaker?


Thanks

Philip
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post #2 of 16 Old 03-30-2013, 07:48 AM
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In fact the total could be less than 95watts in all likely case. It depends on how much voltage the amps on you 1712 can (and designed to ) reach. And each speaker should be half of the total.
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post #3 of 16 Old 03-30-2013, 08:31 AM
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The 1712 does not have pre-out jacks, so if you decide to add an external amp, you would need another model AVR. Also note that on average an 8-ohm speaker is drawing < 5W/CH.

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post #4 of 16 Old 03-30-2013, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjwinstalls View Post

I have a denon avr-1712 that is 95watts at 8ohms per channel. I have two 8ohm speakers wired in series to each channel which would be 16ohms to the receiver. I assume this means the power to each speaker is far less than 95 watts.....how much power are they each receiving? If I get a different or external amp, how many watts at 8ohms would I need for the amp to push out over this 16ohm series channel to get 95-100 watts to each speaker?


Thanks

Philip

Are the (2) 8 Ohm loudspeakers the same brand/model...
If not the same...
Note that by connecting in series one can destroy their sonic performance...

My recommendation would be to connect in parallel, though 4 Ohms the Denon should be fine as long as you have provided adequate free-air clearance (3-4") for the L/R sides and top plus keeping the volume level @ a reasonable position...


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post #5 of 16 Old 03-30-2013, 04:09 PM - Thread Starter
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They are the same model speaker.... They are soliddrive http://soliddrive.com/sd1.html in wall inducers(speakers) The instruction specifically say to wire them in series. I did try paralled but the Denon would cut out at high volume and I need to send as much power as they can handle to them because they are behind sheetrock and panelling. I know the Denon doesn't have preouts but xantech and others make a speaker level to line level converter which i could put on the left and right channels and feed into an amp. The question is how many watts should the amps i purchase be? Most don't list their power output @ 16ohms so how do i know what to get?

Thanks

Philip
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post #6 of 16 Old 03-30-2013, 06:20 PM
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Ensure you check the specs for the Xantech converter you buy as the one below is for limited power use only (ie. background music, not for home theater)

http://www.amazon.com/XANTECH-SLLC1-Speaker-Level-Converter/dp/B000P0UE38

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post #7 of 16 Old 03-30-2013, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah i saw that after i posted. There are others though that can handle the power..... just need to know what size amp i should be looking for to drive those speakers properly.....?
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post #8 of 16 Old 03-31-2013, 03:40 AM
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You have not mentioned what happens with the 1712 alone powering your speaker configuration as it is designed to power 6-16 ohm speakers.

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post #9 of 16 Old 03-31-2013, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
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It works, but your have to crank it up to +2.0 to get it to a volume where it can be heard comfortably.
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post #10 of 16 Old 03-31-2013, 07:22 AM
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So then what's the issue?

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post #11 of 16 Old 03-31-2013, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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As I said above, I want to be able to get the 100watts to each of those speakers. They are connected in series and the receiver sees it at 16ohms so they aren't getting the full power they are capable of handling. 2nd, when you turn the denon up to +2.0 you are getting distortion.
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post #12 of 16 Old 03-31-2013, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjwinstalls View Post

As I said above, I want to be able to get the 100watts to each of those speakers. They are connected in series and the receiver sees it at 16ohms so they aren't getting the full power they are capable of handling. 2nd, when you turn the denon up to +2.0 you are getting distortion.

You have a serious mismatch between the speakers and the Denon electronics.. 😳
If you have the speakers connected in series (16 Ohms) and want 100W @ per each of the individual speakers, you need an amplifier capable 400W per channel into 8 Ohms. As the amplifier's power output is decreased by 50% into 16 Ohms, so as to deliver 100W per speaker (200W per channel)

So I would recommend the following:
1. Redo the wiring, and connect each speaker directly to the Denon' speaker outputs as noted below
2. 1 to Left/Front, 1 to Right Front, 1 to Left Surround, 1 to Right Surround
3. Switch the Denon to the Party mode, 5 Channel stereo
4. Note that now the Denon can operate into 8 Ohms as it was designed, but essentially it will now be a 2.0 stereo system

The other option would be to purchase a large, expensive high powered amplifier. And you would need to use a low-high converter since the Denon does not have pre-outs.. However note that this route will cost 2-3x that of the Denon..

I hope that helps..

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post #13 of 16 Old 03-31-2013, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Redoing the wiring isn't an option for two reasons..... Wire is buried in walls with no access and I am using the surround sound channels for 5.1 surround. The front left and right channels have 2 speakers each because thats what soliddrive recommends for surround sound applications.

I will have to go the amp route for those two front channels. So you are saying i need a 400amp @ 8 ohm amp for each of those 2 channels?
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post #14 of 16 Old 03-31-2013, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjwinstalls View Post

Redoing the wiring isn't an option for two reasons..... Wire is buried in walls with no access and I am using the surround sound channels for 5.1 surround. The front left and right channels have 2 speakers each because thats what soliddrive recommends for surround sound applications.

I will have to go the amp route for those two front channels. So you are saying i need a 400amp @ 8 ohm amp for each of those 2 channels?

frankly it sounds like your concern is based on a faulty premise. No amp puts out full rated power all the time, and some may never do so in a partiuclar setup. See, the amp creates the power that the speaker converts into soundwaves. The amp is not delivering a 100 watt output that is whispering sweet nothings to the speaker about how fast and how hard to vibrate. Instead, the speaker can only move in response to the fluctuations in the otutput from the amp. In order fot the things to get quieter when you turn down, or for a fade out to occur, the amp has to put out less than full power at least sometimes.

In the end, the question is whether you have enough power for your needs. If you can turn it up as loud as you want and you don't hear distortion during loud passages, you don't actually need more power. If you can get as loud as you want (without worrying about what a randomish number on a volume control says) a more powerful amp will never put out more power into your system than your current receiver does, because more power would be louder. If you're already loud enough, you won't use the extra power. For example, my estimate is that I likely use about 2 watts on average per channel when listening at what, for me, is a loud leve (almost 20 dB below "reference"l. With a movie, that means I might need somewhere around fifty or sixty watts for brief peaks.
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post #15 of 16 Old 03-31-2013, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjwinstalls View Post

Redoing the wiring isn't an option for two reasons..... Wire is buried in walls with no access and I am using the surround sound channels for 5.1 surround. The front left and right channels have 2 speakers each because thats what soliddrive recommends for surround sound applications.

I will have to go the amp route for those two front channels. So you are saying i need a 400amp @ 8 ohm amp for each of those 2 channels?

To drive those Solidrive speakers you need to have very significant, high power to drive a 16 Ohm load...
A $399 Denon AVR ain't going to do it..
Its like trying to tow a 30' trailer with a motor scooter...
We do AV installs for a living and can only repeat what I said earlier..
You have a serious mismatch between components and there is no inexpensive, easy, qwick solution...


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post #16 of 16 Old 04-01-2013, 12:30 AM
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Best fix is get some real speakers and be done..
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