Need an amp and crossovers for Noesis 212HTs - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 20 Old 04-04-2013, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
David H.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 178
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi all,

I ordered some Noesis 212HTs, and I need to find the right amp(s) for them. Jeff recommended looking at Emotiva and Parasound. I got recommendations for Wyred 4 Sound and D-Sonic. Last night I did some research and it looks like NCore and DAC Cherry are very highly regarded.

And I know some users don't think amps make too much difference. I'm not sure what the right solution is, but since the Noesis are so efficient, I'm thinking of buying the $25 T-amp in the video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlSTiV5NruQ and using that till I can find the one I want. It might be good to have that anyway for comparative purposes.

I'm also thinking about either buying these crossovers, if I have to use RCA connections: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=266-272 or finding something like them for XLRs if the amp I want accepts XLR ins. I'm not going to use a receiver, and my software bass management isn't working properly, probably because I need a computer upgrade to use Virtual Audio Cable without pops and clicks. I can control levels with the DSP mixer for my soundcard.

Let me know what you think, thanks!
David H. is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 20 Old 04-05-2013, 11:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
GIEGAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,203
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 325
I'm just responding to the amp part of your question David.

How far will you be from the speakers and what's the loudest SPL you are likely to listen at? This will help us work out how much power you actually need. You might not need much more than a T-amp!

Are you just looking for a stereo amp or more channels?
GIEGAR is online now  
post #3 of 20 Old 04-06-2013, 12:22 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
David H.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 178
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi, thanks for the reply.

I think I'll be about 10-12 feet away, and I'm not sure how loud the max is. Ideally I'd like to have an amp with more power than I'd ever need. I'm thinking about buying a Behringer iNuke amp, and currently I'm looking at the: NU3000DSP. Seems like that one is a good choice in terms of power, and it has XLR ins and the DSP crossover I'd need built in.

Any thoughts on that? I know about Behringer's reputation for bad quality, but it looks like a lot of people like the iNuke series, so maybe they've improved!

Oh, and just stereo for now. Not sure if I'll upgrade to 5.1 in the future.
David H. is offline  
post #4 of 20 Old 04-06-2013, 11:31 AM
AVS Special Member
 
GIEGAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,203
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 325
Bloody hell, I had a detailed reply almost finished but lost it from the editor . mad.gif

The short version is, I reckon you only need 100W X 2 to drive the Noesis 212HT to very loud levels (115dBSPL per speaker at your listening position). I can expand on this tomorrow if you're interested.

A suggested amp is: http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/upa200 Note: steer clear of the XPA series as some JTR owners have reported audible hiss due to the combination of high sensitivity speaker and unusually high amp gain (32dB).

Perhaps this as a crossover: http://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-2x4 With 0.9Vrms max. output level it will almost drive the UPA-200 (1.1V input sensitivity) to full power. You can remove the miniDSP from the signal chain or use it for something else if you get another method of bass management sorted out in future.

If you're really in love with the idea of onboard DSP, the NU1000DSP would still be way more than you'd need. With a quick glance through the online specs, I couldn't spot the input sensitivity. That's got me a bit wary. Any idea what your pre-amp output voltage is David?
GIEGAR is online now  
post #5 of 20 Old 04-06-2013, 10:31 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
David H.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 178
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
****, that sucks.

I'd like to get more power than I'd ever need, to avoid another amp purchase down the road. Archaea sent me a PM and he said measuring an iNuke it was +3 dBs in the treble range, due to the Class D design. He suggested one of the Crown XLS series. But wouldn't a Behringer EP4000 be the better value? It's 1400 watts per channel. I'm sure that's more than I'd ever need! The EP would require a fan mod, not sure about the Crowns. If the sound quality is the same with these and the Emotiva, and all it would require is a fan mod, wouldn't the EP be the better value, unless I can find a good deal on the right one used? Plus, to avoid clipping damage to the speakers, it's better to have more power, right?

If I go that route, it looks like the MiniDSP is what I'd want. Here's the product page for my soundcard: http://www.rme-audio.de/en_products_multiface_2.php This is what it says in the documentation:

"Professional AES/EBU equipment can be connected to the Multiface thanks to the transformer-
balanced coaxial output, and the ‘Professional’ format option with doubled output voltage. Out-
put cables should have the same pinout as those used for input (see above), but with a male
XLR plug instead of a female one."

I didn't see specs for the output voltage. I have the option to set -10 dBs, +4 dBs, and Hi Gain for the analog outs.

Thanks for helping me with this. Let me know what you think!
David H. is offline  
post #6 of 20 Old 04-11-2013, 04:12 AM
AVS Special Member
 
GIEGAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,203
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 325
Sorry, it's taken a bit of time to get back here. You're a bit beyond the limits of my knowledge with comparisons between pro amps David! I've never seriously looked at them to be honest. I have noted only good things about Crown XLS DriveCore, provided you step up above the base model 1000. I believe the fans rarely kick in. The lads on the official JTR thread will know for sure (BeastAudio?).

It looks like your soundcard can output "pro" level voltage, so it's compatible with pro amps as well as consumer amps. I know that -10dBV is consumer line level and +4dBu is professional line level. Is that what you can select from? (I don't know what unit dBs is, but again I'm no expert here.) Here is a link I cheat off: http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/metergain/index.htm

If you're determined to go the pro amp route, you should step up to the miniDSP Balanced 2 x 4 to handle the increased input level. There's a miniDSP thread in the DIY board.

David, I'll make my final play in recommending a moderate sized consumer amp, and then I'll drop it OK? This is a difficult case for me to make because as you in effect rightly ask: why would I buy 200W x 2 when I can have 1400W x 2 for around the same money? My quick answer is: if it's not coming out of the back of the amp, it makes no difference how much power the amp can "potentially" produce. Below I'll attempt to calculate the likely maximum power you'll be asking an amp to deliver by taking a stab at your loudest possible listening levels. I sincerely hope I'm not talking down to you with stuff.

Power requirements really come down to how loud you want to listen, your room and the sensitivity of the speakers. We know about the last two, the first you aren't sure about. OK, so the excellent video you linked showed Archaea's system playing at reference level, which (among other things) means theoretical peaks of about 105dBSPL from each speaker measured at the listening position. Reference is considered an aspirational target by audio/home theatre enthusiasts and is by almost any measure: pretty bloody loud! Now, what would it take to be perceived as TWICE AS LOUD as that? Thro' the mid frequencies, it's generally accepted you need to crank it up 10dBSPL to be perceived as twice as loud. So we're looking at peaks of about 115dBSPL from each speaker at the listening position. Add a second speaker for stereo and a some gain from room reinforcement and you'd be hearing in the order 120dBSPL peak levels and 100dBSPL sustained levels at your seat. This is louder than a rock concert and within the confines of a domestic sized room, an absolutely thunderous level.

In room, SPL drops off at about 3 - 4dB each time you double distance from the speaker. In your case of a 12ft (3.7m) listening position, the SPL decrease due to distance will be about 6dB. Therefore the 212HT needs to peak at 121dBSPL to achieve 115dBSPL at your listening position. So what do you know? To play at 121dBSPL the 101dB/1W/1m sensitive 212HT requires 20dBW from the amp - that's 100 Watts. Add another 3dB for headroom and that's 200 Watts. The Emotiva (or similar) is rated to deliver 200 Watts continuously into 4 ohms, let alone for the transient peaks for which the required power was calculated for.

Get one of the little Parts Express T-amps and try it out - for $25 it's worth the experiment. Have a listen at 100dBSPL and then think: the Emotiva (or similar) will cleanly play the 212HT's at least TWICE as loud.

Here are couple of other well regarded options:
http://www.ati-amp.com/AT1202.php (pricier, but apparently bulletproof)
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/2200.html ($674 for 2)

Good luck with your deliberations. smile.gif
GIEGAR is online now  
post #7 of 20 Old 04-11-2013, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
David H.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 178
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hey, no worries. Thanks for all the suggestions. Archaea told me that aside from Class D amps having that bit of brightness in the treble, most of the other amps sound the same to him, so it seems like the EP4000 is still the best value. It'll be around $350 or less for 1400 wpc. As long as I do a fan mod, wouldn't this make the best sense for me?

Yeah, I can toggle switches to go from consumer to pro voltage, and I may not even need a crossover. I was able to lower the latency in my system. A lot of it had to do with the power options, which was interesting to me. The latency seems MUCH better now, and there may be a few more tweaks I can do. Mojave suggested JRiver. Seems pretty cool. Now that the latency seems to be sorted out, I'm going to try to do everything inside the computer, and hopefully I can avoid buying a crossover!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I thought about doing the same thing and getting that t-amp, but Archaea said it introduces distortion. I searched for "distortion" in the Amazon reviews and it does look like that's the case, so I'll skip that amp despite the cost.

Thanks for the suggestions on those 2 amps, but those are a lot more expensive than the EP4000. I guess like you said you haven't tried any pro amps, but if they do all sound the same then I could get a lot more bang for my buck with the EP4000 and a fan mod. If the right amp would sound a lot better I'd be willing to go with it. But it seems, at least going by some users' opinions, that generally speaking which amp you have doesn't matter.
David H. is offline  
post #8 of 20 Old 04-14-2013, 07:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
GIEGAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,203
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 325
David, I can't fault your logic in selecting a powerful $350 amp, especially if you're comfortable doing the fan mod. I would never recommend an amp on the basis that it "sounded better", because unless they're busted, clipping or an absolute crap design we can't reliably pick one solid state amp from the other.

I looked up the spec sheet for the EP4K. My concern in your situation is the fairly high 34dB amplifier gain. As I mentioned above, some JTR (T12HT?) owners have reported audible hiss from tweeters when powered by Emotiva XPA series amps, due to the 32dB amplifier gain. Some have gone on to generalise that high sensitivity speakers should not be paired with high gain amps due to the elevated noise floor. (Of course powering subs with high gain amps like the EP4K is popular as any hiss is well above the subs passband.) The pro amp gurus on the DIY boards will probably be able to shed more light on this. Edit: I see in this thread that they ran the 212HT's off an EP4000 at Gorilla83's GTG. Might be worth keeping an eye on attendees impressions. Perhaps quiz them about any hiss.

It looks like your system is really coming together now. You have absolutely top notch speakers and sub! When you get set up, be sure to post some photos and impressions on the official JTR speaker thread.

Best of luck!
GIEGAR is online now  
post #9 of 20 Old 04-14-2013, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
David H.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 178
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks for the heads up on the gain. I posted to that thread and it looks like there aren't any issues, but it's definitely something I want to be certain of!

Haha, well I do already have impressions that I've posted about here and there cause RMK let me demo his system, but yeah, I am looking VERY forward to getting immersed in the audio! I do need to make it a point to watch my ears. biggrin.gif

Thanks again!
David H. is offline  
post #10 of 20 Old 04-14-2013, 07:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
GIEGAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,203
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 325
From Gorilla83's NE Speaker Shootout thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by David H. View Post

Could somebody give me their thoughts on the Noesis and hiss when being powered by a high gain amp (specifically the EP4000)?

Giegar posted this in one of my threads,

"I looked up the spec sheet for the EP4K. My concern in your situation is the fairly high 34dB amplifier gain. As I mentioned above, some JTR (212HT?) owners have reported audible hiss from tweeters when powered by Emotiva XPA series amps, due to the 32dB amplifier gain. Some have gone on to generalise that high sensitivity speakers should not be paired with high gain amps due to the elevated noise floor. (Of course powering subs with high gain amps like the EP4K is popular as any hiss is well above the subs passband.) The pro amp gurus on the DIY boards will probably be able to shed more light on this. Edit: I see in this thread that they ran the 212HT's off an EP4000 at Gorilla83's GTG. Might be worth keeping an eye on attendees impressions. Perhaps quiz them about any hiss."

I have some Noesis on order and I was thinking about pairing them with the EP4000 since it seems like the best bang for the buck! Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I don't believe anyone every reported hiss issues with the 212HT's. I remember reading earlier in the JTR thread that some with the T12's heard a slight hiss with Emotiva amps while others didn't.

David, just wanted to point out that you made a typo when you transcribed my post. I did originally say: "(T12HT?)". I mentioned the T12HT because hiss has been reported and it has the same 101dB/W/m sensitivity as the 212HT. Like jbrown15 mentioned I don't recall anyone reporting hiss to date with the 212HT's on high gain amps. That could be for two reasons: 1. Noesis 212HT owners haven't yet used high gain amps (I don't consider RMK!'s W4S amp to be high gain.) or 2. The Noesis 212HT horn loaded CD doesn't reproduce the hiss like the T12HT coaxial is reported to have done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I am watching the Masters on the system and just checked the 212HT's for hiss. Cranked the system to ref on several sources with nothing playing and they were silent from less than a foot away in a quiet room. The gain on my W4S amp is 27db.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David H. View Post

Thanks for the replies Rob and jbrown15. So at 34 dBs for the EP4000, shouldn't make any difference, right?

Not necessarily. Remember that dB is a logrithmic difference between values, so 34dB gain is about 5 times the gain of 27dB. eek.gif

Sorry, I don't want to "scare the horses" with this amplifier gain stuff. It may not actually turn out to be an issue with the Noesis, but as you haven't bought the amp yet, I thought it's an element you should be aware of. smile.gif
GIEGAR is online now  
post #11 of 20 Old 04-14-2013, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
David H.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 178
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
My mistake! I hadn't heard of the T12HT, and I thought it was a typo.

I'll keep asking around about the gain issue, but I do know of a few users with the 212HTs and the EP4000. So far I haven't heard anything about a hiss issue, but I will definitely confirm that before purchasing. I could also get the amp from Guitar Center, and return it if it's an issue.
David H. is offline  
post #12 of 20 Old 04-14-2013, 07:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
GIEGAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,203
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 325
^ That's a great idea. ^
GIEGAR is online now  
post #13 of 20 Old 04-16-2013, 08:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
GIEGAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,203
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 325
David, you may be interested in this conversation going on in the DIY area:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1467939/jbl-cinema-and-other-high-sensitivity-speakers-hissing-with-pro-amps/30

They seem to be honing in on S/N ratio as the culprit, so maybe my theory about high amplifier gain is off track? rolleyes.gif Edit: Or maybe not! If less than desirable S/N ratio is a result of high amplifier gain?
GIEGAR is online now  
post #14 of 20 Old 04-17-2013, 09:00 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
David H.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 178
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Well, I keep asking around. I still don't have a definitive answer on the EP4000 paired with the 212HTs. I think what I'll do is get one from Guitar Center and return it if I have to!

Thanks for all the advice and pointers on this! smile.gif
David H. is offline  
post #15 of 20 Old 04-18-2013, 04:10 AM
AVS Special Member
 
GIEGAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,203
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 325
No worries mate! It's been good and I've learnt a bit too. smile.gif

(PS: What's amusing is that for just under 2 weeks, nobody else has posted except us, despite 170+ views. I thought having Noesis in the title you would have the amp gurus flocking in!)
GIEGAR is online now  
post #16 of 20 Old 04-18-2013, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
David H.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 178
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Haha, yeah, I don't know...at least you got something out of it!

Have you auditioned the Noesis? These things are ****ing awesome!
David H. is offline  
post #17 of 20 Old 04-18-2013, 09:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
GIEGAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,203
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by David H. View Post

Have you auditioned the Noesis? These things are ****ing awesome!

Stop it Dave, you're killing me!!! biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

I've been dreaming about JTR's for about 18 months. I know from lining up other members tastes/priorities with my own that I'd absolutely love them. But at the moment I neither have the space or the disposable funds to accommodate them. With shipping, taxes and customs included a pair of 228HT's would set me back about A$3200. I have to build out a 2.5 car garage for a new media room first. I console myself that Jeff is in it for the long haul, and makes continuous refinements to all his speakers... perhaps the 2015 version of the Noesis will be even awesomer!

I'd still love to audition them, but the only Noesis setup in Australia (that I'm aware of) is owned by AVS member superaaaa in Perth, on the opposite side of the country.
GIEGAR is online now  
post #18 of 20 Old 04-19-2013, 09:54 AM
Advanced Member
 
rjyap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 831
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
I wouldn't pair it with high gain amp. I owned the JTR T8 with Denon 4311 and Emotiva XPA-5. The problem I face is due to high efficiency speaker and high gain amp, all the trim in Denon for LCR is set at -12 which is the bottom limit. I had to use inline rca attenuator which does sound better. Later I change to ClassDAudio SDS module which can adjust the gain (around 24db gain) and I like the sounds better than Emotiva XPA-5 (better separation). Another advantage is I build a 8 channel classD amp using the 4 ClassDAudio module each running on separate power supply which is quite cheap compare to commercial Class D amp.

Now should I change my T8 2010 to Noesis?
rjyap is offline  
post #19 of 20 Old 04-19-2013, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
David H.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 178
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post

Stop it Dave, you're killing me!!! biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

I've been dreaming about JTR's for about 18 months. I know from lining up other members tastes/priorities with my own that I'd absolutely love them. But at the moment I neither have the space or the disposable funds to accommodate them. With shipping, taxes and customs included a pair of 228HT's would set me back about A$3200. I have to build out a 2.5 car garage for a new media room first. I console myself that Jeff is in it for the long haul, and makes continuous refinements to all his speakers... perhaps the 2015 version of the Noesis will be even awesomer!

I'd still love to audition them, but the only Noesis setup in Australia (that I'm aware of) is owned by AVS member superaaaa in Perth, on the opposite side of the country.

Haha, just kidding, I take it back! You don't want 'em!!!!!! wink.gif

Sounds like you've got other priorities, and I think you're right to focus on those first. If you wait till you're ready to buy the speakers you want, there very well may be an updated version. I think it's been less than 18 months that the Noesis have been around, right? And maybe after awhile, more Noesis owners will pop up in your corner of the world!
David H. is offline  
post #20 of 20 Old 04-19-2013, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
David H.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 178
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjyap View Post

I wouldn't pair it with high gain amp. I owned the JTR T8 with Denon 4311 and Emotiva XPA-5. The problem I face is due to high efficiency speaker and high gain amp, all the trim in Denon for LCR is set at -12 which is the bottom limit. I had to use inline rca attenuator which does sound better. Later I change to ClassDAudio SDS module which can adjust the gain (around 24db gain) and I like the sounds better than Emotiva XPA-5 (better separation). Another advantage is I build a 8 channel classD amp using the 4 ClassDAudio module each running on separate power supply which is quite cheap compare to commercial Class D amp.

Now should I change my T8 2010 to Noesis?

Thanks for the reply. Gorilla83 told me that I should be able to turn the amp gain down. Maybe with the EP4000 I wouldn't have the problems you mention? I'm going to try it unless I hear that I shouldn't for some reason, from someone who's tried the Noesis-EP4000 combo. But all accounts I've heard so far suggest that it would work fine.

I haven't heard the T8s, but from what I understand the Noesis are a good step up!
David H. is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off