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post #61 of 88 Old 04-10-2013, 07:48 PM
 
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for sure they would suck at higher volumes... you got to have power for the music dynamics...

the power to control da woofers ..

300 to 500 watts atleast 1000 even better eh..

All completely dependent on speaker efficiency. More power is only of value if you actually use it and given the efficiencies of modern speakers, the vast majority never use 100 watts, let alone 1000.

music dynamic draws big big power for short periods of time if you like clipping and distortion use low power if you like clean music you new amps to delievery the instantaneous power...

something my denon could not do at 125wpc.. till i added and external amp... wow what a difference way way better sound...

hearing is believing eh...
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post #62 of 88 Old 04-10-2013, 09:39 PM
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So how does a Sunfire Cinema do 400 watts x 5 all channels driven with a 540 watt power supply? Just wondering.

It is known that Sunfire doesn't rate theirs at full power. Not sure about the older 5200 and 5400 series but the 7200 and 7400 series have the power consumption at 1/8th power. Looking at the power consumption/rating on the back of the AMP/AVR is just gives us a general idea of what power supply is inside. I think most of the mass-market AVR companies use either full or near full power draw. Sunfire probably does it to avoid a stigma as an energy hog by stating a reasonable power draw instead of maximum draw. It seems that some companies, like Emotiva, don't care. My Emotiva amp has a 3300 watt power supply and the power rating listed on the back of the unit is 3500 watts. Those numbers jive with the power supply inside and the power it delivers after dumping 40% of it out as heat. It will NEVER see that on a dedicated single 20 amp circuit. Denon could be using the power it draws when volume is set to reference levels instead of 100% too. That is one part of the equation us A/V serfs are missing.

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post #63 of 88 Old 04-11-2013, 03:00 AM
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Thats why we need a set of standards that applies to ratings that is understandable .
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It is known that Sunfire doesn't rate theirs at full power. Not sure about the older 5200 and 5400 series but the 7200 and 7400 series have the power consumption at 1/8th power. Looking at the power consumption/rating on the back of the AMP/AVR is just gives us a general idea of what power supply is inside. I think most of the mass-market AVR companies use either full or near full power draw. Sunfire probably does it to avoid a stigma as an energy hog by stating a reasonable power draw instead of maximum draw. It seems that some companies, like Emotiva, don't care. My Emotiva amp has a 3300 watt power supply and the power rating listed on the back of the unit is 3500 watts. Those numbers jive with the power supply inside and the power it delivers after dumping 40% of it out as heat. It will NEVER see that on a dedicated single 20 amp circuit. Denon could be using the power it draws when volume is set to reference levels instead of 100% too. That is one part of the equation us A/V serfs are missing.
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post #64 of 88 Old 04-11-2013, 03:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

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Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

for sure they would suck at higher volumes... you got to have power for the music dynamics...

the power to control da woofers ..

300 to 500 watts atleast 1000 even better eh..

All completely dependent on speaker efficiency. More power is only of value if you actually use it and given the efficiencies of modern speakers, the vast majority never use 100 watts, let alone 1000.

music dynamic draws big big power for short periods of time if you like clipping and distortion use low power if you like clean music you new amps to delievery the instantaneous power...

something my denon could not do at 125wpc.. till i added and external amp... wow what a difference way way better sound...

hearing is believing eh...

I've added an XPA-5 to my Denon and it sounds and measures exactly the same. My amp must be defective..... Or not.

Your expectation bias is showing, because in a DBT, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference as has been shown many times over. Frankly, this entire rant about Denon's specs is both old news and pervasive across the industry. Hard to believe anyone with even limited knowledge of this hobby wouldn't be aware of that.

With most systems now routing bass to a sub, the demands on the amp are further reduced.

If you have measurements of your system showing the clipping and distortion you describe, you could post them.
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post #65 of 88 Old 04-11-2013, 06:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

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Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

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Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

for sure they would suck at higher volumes... you got to have power for the music dynamics...

the power to control da woofers ..

300 to 500 watts atleast 1000 even better eh..

All completely dependent on speaker efficiency. More power is only of value if you actually use it and given the efficiencies of modern speakers, the vast majority never use 100 watts, let alone 1000.

music dynamic draws big big power for short periods of time if you like clipping and distortion use low power if you like clean music you new amps to delievery the instantaneous power...

something my denon could not do at 125wpc.. till i added and external amp... wow what a difference way way better sound...

hearing is believing eh...

I've added an XPA-5 to my Denon and it sounds and measures exactly the same. My amp must be defective..... Or not.

Your expectation bias is showing, because in a DBT, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference as has been shown many times over. Frankly, this entire rant about Denon's specs is both old news and pervasive across the industry. Hard to believe anyone with even limited knowledge of this hobby wouldn't be aware of that.

With most systems now routing bass to a sub, the demands on the amp are further reduced.

If you have measurements of your system showing the clipping and distortion you describe, you could post them.

must be your ears that are defective if you cant hear the amazing improvements in sound quality..

cheers..
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post #66 of 88 Old 04-11-2013, 06:43 PM
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I've added an XPA-5 to my Denon and it sounds and measures exactly the same.
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must be your ears that are defective if you cant hear the amazing improvements in sound quality..

Doesn't look like an ear problem to me....

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post #67 of 88 Old 04-12-2013, 12:37 AM
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I had a Denon 3313 briefly, which I replaced twice because I originally that it was defective--in fact it was working as intended. The HDMI upconversion is very poor. I used it with my HTPC and anyone who has an HTPC knows you don't run 1080p generally because the corners get lopped off, so you need to scale the image and so the resolution ends up being different than 1080p. The text is garbled and unreadable on the desktop. But I lived with it for a while, but found out all 3 models I had had hdmi flickering/handshake issues with my PS3, so I ended up ditching it.
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post #68 of 88 Old 04-12-2013, 12:43 AM
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Doesn't look like an ear problem to me....

Yeah, Denon and XPA-2 don't really measure the same...

Denon



XPA-5

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post #69 of 88 Old 04-12-2013, 05:04 AM
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must be your ears that are defective if you cant hear the amazing improvements in sound quality..

cheers..

I have measurements that indicate there is no change. Audio science sides with my view.

You have, well, you have very strong unsubstantiated subjective opinions. If you have any factual data to support your claims, now would be the time to post it.

I'm glad you like your XPA, but you really have no idea what you are talking about.
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post #70 of 88 Old 04-12-2013, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

Yeah, Denon and XPA-2 don't really measure the same...

Denon



XPA-5


Not sure what point you're trying to make with these graphs, but in both cases, the THD is well below audible levels below 100 watts and rises to audible levels at higher output. What happens below audibility is irrelevant to whether the units sound the same.

The measurements I'm referring to as being the same are in room response.
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post #71 of 88 Old 04-12-2013, 05:12 AM
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While I like and appreciate my Emotiva XPA-3 and other components, I never would just tell someone to add an amp to their receiver to get some magical improvement in sound - based upon my experience. I fell for the "add-an-amp" talk and really expected to hear the amazing improvement but heard absolutely no change in sound. Maybe because I am one of the glass-half-empty folks and have to be convinced in a clear manner to believe there is an improvement. Even after running for a couple years with the added amp and switching back, I still detected no change in sound quality at all. Now if I had a receiver at the bottom of the price scale with pre-outs, I would sure think I would be more likely to hear a difference but even then I am doubtful now. For any one reading this, please try to borrow an amp first before making a purchase to try it out for yourself. Don't just assume because someone on the web claims these magical improvements that you will have the same experience!
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post #72 of 88 Old 04-12-2013, 05:33 AM
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Glad someone on here makes sense.
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post #73 of 88 Old 04-12-2013, 05:44 AM
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For the OP, go to Pioneers and Yamaha's web sites. They not even as honest as Denon is in their ratings. It seems Denon is the most conservative in their power ratings.
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post #74 of 88 Old 04-12-2013, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Not sure what point you're trying to make with these graphs, but in both cases, the THD is well below audible levels below 100 watts and rises to audible levels at higher output. What happens below audibility is irrelevant to whether the units sound the same.

The measurements I'm referring to as being the same are in room response.

They are 8 ohm measurements though, at 4 ohms THD will often look anywhere from 2 to 10 times worse, and if your speakers drop even below that...also THD graphs is doesn't include IMD which is a much more audible distortion artifact since the distortions are not at double the frequency multiples like harmonic distortion, essentially "off-key" distortion. A THD graph is only part of the picture of the overall noise spectrum.

Unless you use your speakers to listen to 1KHz tones and your speakers are nothing more than a single 8 ohm resistor, I think your real world mileage may vary...
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post #75 of 88 Old 04-12-2013, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Not sure what point you're trying to make with these graphs, but in both cases, the THD is well below audible levels below 100 watts and rises to audible levels at higher output. What happens below audibility is irrelevant to whether the units sound the same.

The measurements I'm referring to as being the same are in room response.

They are 8 ohm measurements though, at 4 ohms THD will often look anywhere from 2 to 10 times worse, and if your speakers drop even below that...also THD graphs is doesn't include IMD which is a much more audible distortion artifact since the distortions are not at double the frequency multiples like harmonic distortion, essentially "off-key" distortion. A THD graph is only part of the picture of the overall noise spectrum.

Unless you use your speakers to listen to 1KHz tones and your speakers are nothing more than a single 8 ohm resistor, I think your real world mileage may vary...

You posted those graphs to support your position, but I don't believe they show differences that would be anywhere near audible. If you have the other graphs for 4 ohm response or IMD that indicate audible differences between the two, please post them.
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post #76 of 88 Old 04-13-2013, 12:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

must be your ears that are defective if you cant hear the amazing improvements in sound quality..

cheers..

I have measurements that indicate there is no change. Audio science sides with my view.

You have, well, you have very strong unsubstantiated subjective opinions. If you have any factual data to support your claims, now would be the time to post it.

I'm glad you like your XPA, but you really have no idea what you are talking about.

your claims are strongly unsubstantiated ...

what measurements what proof..

your ears are defective..

cheers..
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post #77 of 88 Old 04-13-2013, 12:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by PeterK View Post

While I like and appreciate my Emotiva XPA-3 and other components, I never would just tell someone to add an amp to their receiver to get some magical improvement in sound - based upon my experience. I fell for the "add-an-amp" talk and really expected to hear the amazing improvement but heard absolutely no change in sound. Maybe because I am one of the glass-half-empty folks and have to be convinced in a clear manner to believe there is an improvement. Even after running for a couple years with the added amp and switching back, I still detected no change in sound quality at all. Now if I had a receiver at the bottom of the price scale with pre-outs, I would sure think I would be more likely to hear a difference but even then I am doubtful now. For any one reading this, please try to borrow an amp first before making a purchase to try it out for yourself. Don't just assume because someone on the web claims these magical improvements that you will have the same experience!

good sounds quality comes from da power especially at high volume levels.. you got to have the head room...

cheers..
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post #78 of 88 Old 04-13-2013, 12:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ray587 View Post

For the OP, go to Pioneers and Yamaha's web sites. They not even as honest as Denon is in their ratings. It seems Denon is the most conservative in their power ratings.

denon is very deceptive..
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post #79 of 88 Old 04-13-2013, 01:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

Yeah, Denon and XPA-2 don't really measure the same...

Denon



XPA-5


Not sure what point you're trying to make with these graphs, but in both cases, the THD is well below audible levels below 100 watts and rises to audible levels at higher output. What happens below audibility is irrelevant to whether the units sound the same.

The measurements I'm referring to as being the same are in room response.

the graph clearly shows the double the power output of the emotiva amp before distortion..

you need da power.. guess if you can hear the added benefits your ears are defective or your speakers are not good...
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post #80 of 88 Old 04-13-2013, 01:28 AM
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denon is very deceptive..

Denon has joined the game as well. They claim the 4520 is 150W x 9 but in reality its 105 x 7, and the Denon 3313 is claimed at 125 x 7, but its really a 80 x 7 amp.

The last flagship receivers to actually come close to their claimed power specs were the Yamaha RX-Z11 (claimed 140W x 7, actually measured at 139W x 7) and the Denon 5805 (claimed 170W x 5, measured at 185W x 5). The Z11 weighed 73 pounds and the 5805 weighed 97 lbs.
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post #81 of 88 Old 04-13-2013, 03:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray587 View Post

For the OP, go to Pioneers and Yamaha's web sites. They not even as honest as Denon is in their ratings. It seems Denon is the most conservative in their power ratings.

Pretty sure Pioneer's ICE amps and D3 amps have all been reviewed and tested pretty favorable and while not at their exact rated power, still pretty high up there.

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post #82 of 88 Old 04-13-2013, 04:59 AM
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For the OP, go to Pioneers and Yamaha's web sites. They not even as honest as Denon is in their ratings. It seems Denon is the most conservative in their power ratings.
Actually, Harman Kardon is the best at rating actual power. They actuall underrate the actual output x7.

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post #83 of 88 Old 04-13-2013, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

your claims are strongly unsubstantiated ...

what measurements what proof..

your ears are defective..

cheers..

Here's my FR graph comparing the Denon 4311 internal amps and the 4311 using the XPA-5 for amplification. Care to show me where the audible differences are? Start with the "massive ones" you claim to exist.

Now lets see your evidence!

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post #84 of 88 Old 04-13-2013, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

the graph clearly shows the double the power output of the emotiva amp before distortion..

you need da power.. guess if you can hear the added benefits your ears are defective or your speakers are not good...

You've finally reached the last typical position for the subjective amp crowd - the strawman that my speakers aren't good enough. Not the case, but nice try.

What speakers do you use, and more significantly, what is their efficiency rating? So that it can be determined how loud you would actually have to be playing them to actually utilize that extra power. rolleyes.gif

Or post your measurements supporting your claim as I have above.
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post #85 of 88 Old 04-13-2013, 06:13 AM
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My point was don't single out one brand when they all mislead in their advertising. Not lying but not telling the whole truth either.
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Pretty sure Pioneer's ICE amps and D3 amps have all been reviewed and tested pretty favorable and while not at their exact rated power, still pretty high up there.
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post #86 of 88 Old 04-14-2013, 09:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

the graph clearly shows the double the power output of the emotiva amp before distortion..

you need da power.. guess if you can hear the added benefits your ears are defective or your speakers are not good...

You've finally reached the last typical position for the subjective amp crowd - the strawman that my speakers aren't good enough. Not the case, but nice try.

What speakers do you use, and more significantly, what is their efficiency rating? So that it can be determined how loud you would actually have to be playing them to actually utilize that extra power. rolleyes.gif

Or post your measurements supporting your claim as I have above.

i listed my equipment on my profile ...

not like you.. no info.. guess your speakers and ears are not good eh...

if you cant hear the sound quality improvements of the added benefits of an amp..

ps this is the 3313 thread of deceptive denon avrs... the 3313 can be greatly improved by adding the an external amp with real power !

tighter bass bigger sound stage..

cheers..
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post #87 of 88 Old 04-14-2013, 09:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonfitch View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

denon is very deceptive..

Denon has joined the game as well. They claim the 4520 is 150W x 9 but in reality its 105 x 7, and the Denon 3313 is claimed at 125 x 7, but its really a 80 x 7 amp.

The last flagship receivers to actually come close to their claimed power specs were the Yamaha RX-Z11 (claimed 140W x 7, actually measured at 139W x 7) and the Denon 5805 (claimed 170W x 5, measured at 185W x 5). The Z11 weighed 73 pounds and the 5805 weighed 97 lbs.

see how deceptive denon and other avrs are..

cheers..
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post #88 of 88 Old 06-02-2013, 01:31 AM
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Just to add insult to injury on this thread. My 3313ci keeps cutting out. I was told by the Denon techs in Dubai to add power amp which I did . 2 x emotive monoblocks. Guess what it still cuts out whilst only driving the center and rears. Using a golden ear triton 2 surround system and volume cuts out at 82. To make this even worse the Denon tech is blaming me and they are saying that I cannot drive even the center and rears at this level. Sorry but to me this is the last ever Denon product I will buy and as for the Denon techs in Dubai well you don't really wanna know my opinion when they test the amp with 60 watt rms speakers. Arrrgh.HELP
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