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post #1 of 88 Old 04-05-2013, 03:59 AM - Thread Starter
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I just bought a Denon 3313 and sad to say I'm very dissatisfied with it. My old amp was an Onkyo 606, unfortunately the hdmi board got busted so I decided to get a new receiver. I chose the Denon 3313 as I read a lot of positive reviews about it, but when I hooked it up to my unit I felt really sad because Im not happy with the sound quality as well as the picture quality. Here are my concerns, maybe users of the same unit can help me.

1. It sounded thin and bright (hollow sounding). I chose this as I thought it would be an upgrade from my previous amp, however it seems that I've downgraded my old receiver mad.gif

2. The sound is not as loud as I expected, to get an acceptable sound level I have to crank it up to 80db (max is 100) and it's still not as loud compared to my previous receiver; at 50db my old receiver is able to shake the room. Is that normal? My room is very small 4 x 4 meters

3. Picture quallity is bad when hdmi is passed through the amp instead of directly to the tv. I'm using a media player and prior to buying the amp, it was connected directly to my plasma tv and picture quality was nice, but with the 3313; it's pixelated and lacked vibrance. even after disabling the upconcersion, it still looks the same. I was under the impression that without upconversion it's just passthrough but it appears it's still being processed by the receiver.

Im using an Mission M70 series speakers (M74 as fronts) and it seems that the Denon 3313 is a very bad match with it, SQ is terrible. I already ran the Audessy setup and tried manual configuration but it's the same. I have a very small room but I would have to crank the volume of the amp close to its peak but still it seems that it can't really fill my room. I chose this model as I know it's already top of the line, but I think I made a very wrong decision.

I hope someone can help me as I feel down and sad right now frown.gif
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post #2 of 88 Old 04-05-2013, 08:51 AM
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The volume control is denominated in dB, and at 80 out of 100, you're using 1/100 of the power that you'd use at 100. Double or halve power for every 3 dB, 10 times or 1/10 power for every 10 dB.

Make sure that Dynamic Volume is turned off. I uderstand that some receivers default to it being on (a bad choice IMO) Dynamic volume is great when you need it but is quite intrusive, especially at highest settings, when you don't need to limit total volume while still being able to hear dialog. And DYnVOl essentially won't work right on music unless you usee an offset, because while there's no rule for music, they generally have a lower "effective" reference level than the known movie reference.

FWIW, I prefer having my volume display set to show departure from "reference" once the autosetup has set the system to be at movie "reference" (85 dB per speaker with pink noise encoded at -20dBFS).
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post #3 of 88 Old 04-05-2013, 08:59 AM
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Maybe you have a bad receiver.That Denon should be able to lay the smack down on that 606.Go buy another and test drive it.OR you have something in the settings that is messed.The PQ should be decent as well.Something seems a miss.I have setup a couple of 1913's and 2313 for friends and have no complaints.I myself Use an Onkyo,but im not a fanboy either way.

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post #4 of 88 Old 04-05-2013, 09:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hargutierrez View Post

I just bought a Denon 3313 and sad to say I'm very dissatisfied with it. My old amp was an Onkyo 606, unfortunately the hdmi board got busted so I decided to get a new receiver. I chose the Denon 3313 as I read a lot of positive reviews about it, but when I hooked it up to my unit I felt really sad because Im not happy with the sound quality as well as the picture quality. Here are my concerns, maybe users of the same unit can help me.

1. It sounded thin and bright (hollow sounding). I chose this as I thought it would be an upgrade from my previous amp, however it seems that I've downgraded my old receiver mad.gif

2. The sound is not as loud as I expected, to get an acceptable sound level I have to crank it up to 80db (max is 100) and it's still not as loud compared to my previous receiver; at 50db my old receiver is able to shake the room. Is that normal? My room is very small 4 x 4 meters

3. Picture quallity is bad when hdmi is passed through the amp instead of directly to the tv. I'm using a media player and prior to buying the amp, it was connected directly to my plasma tv and picture quality was nice, but with the 3313; it's pixelated and lacked vibrance. even after disabling the upconcersion, it still looks the same. I was under the impression that without upconversion it's just passthrough but it appears it's still being processed by the receiver.

Im using an Mission M70 series speakers (M74 as fronts) and it seems that the Denon 3313 is a very bad match with it, SQ is terrible. I already ran the Audessy setup and tried manual configuration but it's the same. I have a very small room but I would have to crank the volume of the amp close to its peak but still it seems that it can't really fill my room. I chose this model as I know it's already top of the line, but I think I made a very wrong decision.

I hope someone can help me as I feel down and sad right now frown.gif


im not to happy with my denon either 3313 ci... yup take off dynamic volume will help.. you need to set it up for da sound

i did notice a very slight downgrade of picture quality.. but its the power..

125 wpc for 2 channels but dropps to like 79 wpc in 7 channel mode they made it sound like 125 per channel which it is not..
deceptive marketing.. but all the companys do it..

i added an external amp wow what a difference in the sound quality...

.

cheers..
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post #5 of 88 Old 04-05-2013, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

im not to happy with my denon either 3313 ci... yup take off dynamic volume will help.. you need to set it up for da sound

i did notice a very slight downgrade of picture quality.. but its the power..

125 wpc for 2 channels but dropps to like 79 wpc in 7 channel mode they made it sound like 125 per channel which it is not..
deceptive marketing.. but all the companys do it..

i added an external amp wow what a difference in the sound quality...

.

cheers..

Did you re-run Audyssey after adding the ext. amp? If not you should do so, coz surely the gain structure of the internal power amp of the 3313 and the ext. amp are different, thus speaker trims need to be re-calibrated for reference sound, unless otherwise even DynEQ will be thrown off, for sure. smile.gif
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post #6 of 88 Old 04-08-2013, 04:51 AM
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Denon rates their AVRs like everybody else, 2 channels = X, 7 channels = X * 0.6 (appr.).
There are only very few manufacturers, which provide realistic power data per channel for a larger number of channels combined.
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post #7 of 88 Old 04-08-2013, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

i did notice a very slight downgrade of picture quality.. but its the power..

125 wpc for 2 channels but dropps to like 79 wpc in 7 channel mode they made it sound like 125 per channel which it is not..
deceptive marketing.. but all the companys do it..

+1. Denon are very clever how they word and format their product sheets by highlighting discrete and identical amp quality, identical power for all channels and repeating the ratings for every individual channel. I was naive and fell for it a couple of years ago with a 1911. mad.gif It didn't last long. Other manufacturers do it too, but not quite so well. rolleyes.gif I'm bitter.

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Originally Posted by CrappyGamer View Post

Denon has always rated their Receivers with all channels driven. I'd be extremely surprised if this were not the case with the 3313CI.

Not correct, but understandable why you'd have that idea. Denon's product sheets certainly give the impression that they're rated as all channels driven, but they are definitely not. [Hint: look for the power consumption figure on the back of the unit. Divide it by 2 (~50% efficient) and then divide again by the number of channels driven to get an approx. ACD power figure.] That's not to say Denon don't have some very stout amps in their AVR's though. People just need to know what they're getting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

Denon rates their AVRs like everybody else, 2 channels = X, 7 channels = X * 0.6 (appr.).
There are only very few manufacturers, which provide realistic power data per channel for a larger number of channels combined.

Only NAD comes to mind in "consumer grade" AVR's.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

OP: Was your Audyssey set-up successful? Did all the settings it reported make sense? Can you toggle to relative volume for us (instead of the arbitrary 0-100 scale) and report those figures? If that's OK, suggest you go through the on screen menu line-by-line with manual at hand and check for unexpected defaults (e.g Is Audyssey EQ actually engaged?). This is an excellent guide for those new to Denon: http://batpigworld.com/wp/ (Hmm... updated since I last looked.)

Sorry, I have no clue why the video might be acting up. Have you tried sending different resolutions from the media player to see if that changes anything?

BTW, don't fall for the cr@p of this amp or that speaker being a "bad match" for each other. It's all science and set-up... there's no magic combinations of stuff. I'm sure we'll get you sorted out. smile.gif
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post #8 of 88 Old 04-08-2013, 01:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CrappyGamer View Post

Denon has always rated their Receivers with all channels driven. I'd be extremely surprised if this were not the case with the 3313CI.
As for the sound, as others have suggested it seems very likely that it is in your settings. It could be that the speakers are set to small, it could be the speaker volume, it could be Audessy. Also, if you are using 5.1 speakers it could be your center stage, you can usually adjust this. It could be that too much of the sound is going to your center speaker.
I have owned Denon receivers for a long time and they are difficult to setup. They definitively are not out of the box, it's like you need a degree in Denon 101 sometimes but once you've done the work it should be worth it..That Denon, should be a big step up from that 606.
As for the HDMI, there is no reason this should happen at all. It the conversion is turned off then the picture should look the same, I'm not sure what to say here.

not a chance that the rating is all channels driven... out to lunch statement..
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post #9 of 88 Old 04-08-2013, 01:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrappyGamer View Post

Denon has always rated their Receivers with all channels driven. I'd be extremely surprised if this were not the case with the 3313CI.
As for the sound, as others have suggested it seems very likely that it is in your settings. It could be that the speakers are set to small, it could be the speaker volume, it could be Audessy. Also, if you are using 5.1 speakers it could be your center stage, you can usually adjust this. It could be that too much of the sound is going to your center speaker.
I have owned Denon receivers for a long time and they are difficult to setup. They definitively are not out of the box, it's like you need a degree in Denon 101 sometimes but once you've done the work it should be worth it..That Denon, should be a big step up from that 606.
As for the HDMI, there is no reason this should happen at all. It the conversion is turned off then the picture should look the same, I'm not sure what to say here.

not a chance that the rating is all channels driven... out to lunch statement..
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post #10 of 88 Old 04-08-2013, 02:06 PM
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The Denon is only 1 lb heavier than the Onkyo 606, unless it's using a completely different amp topology, power output is probably similar.
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post #11 of 88 Old 04-08-2013, 04:22 PM
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The government, here in the US, mandates that consumer amps be rated with all (I think it's ) "related" channels driven. At any rate every amp manufacturer interprets the regulation to mean that they can rate with left and right or any other two channels alone, and they do so.

AFAIK, no receiver has an adequate power supply to support full power output to all channels simultaneously. That would be a real problem if (a) in YOUR room with YOUR speakers at YOUR listening levels you ever need the full rated power of the amps at all and (b) there was any movie or music content that came close to having full output on all channels at the same time. You might qualify for (a) but (b) doesn't happen, AFAIK. Remember if the surround channesl are "one notch" (3 dB) quieter than the mains, they require no more than one half the power the mains are calling for. While the tyranny of doubling power for 3 dB (or 10 times power for 10 dB - twice as loud) is painful and potentially expensive on the loud end, it's kinda forgiving when your SPL needs are lower, as changes that are surely perceptible but hardly noticeable in the heat of battle cut power demands significantly.

In the end, especially since everybody plays the game the same way, either you have enough power to achieve your listening levels without audible distortion or you don't. If you do, whether you'd like to see the power specified differently is pretty much moot.

AAFAIK, the only way to know for reasonably sure how a particular receiver reacts to high power requirements for 5 or 7 simulteneous channels is to find third party testing. It's what I did, once I started hanging around here and got the mesage . . .
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post #12 of 88 Old 04-08-2013, 07:22 PM
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You have every right to be upset wth Denon, they cheaped out like all the mass mrkt. Look at NAD, Rotel, HK for more realistic numbers.
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post #13 of 88 Old 04-08-2013, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

The government, here in the US, mandates that consumer amps be rated with all (I think it's ) "related" channels driven. At any rate every amp manufacturer interprets the regulation to mean that they can rate with left and right or any other two channels alone, and they do so.

The most recent amplifier statue EIA490 written a few years back specifies that that all channels must be driven @ 1/8th rated power while measuring a single channel. So if the AVR is a 7.1, 6 channels are driven @ 1/8th and 1 channel to rated power output. Essentially it means that (2) channels are driven, then rated THD %, power bandwidth and load impedance are disclosed...
Since the tech standards committee was made up of representatives from Bose, Sony, Panasonic and Samsung.. 👎👎
One can kiss these off.. 😄



Just my 💰... 👍😉
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post #14 of 88 Old 04-08-2013, 08:05 PM
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My 10 year old Denon 3803 is rated the same way my new 3313 is. It was not rated all channels driven even back then. It is 10 lbs heavier though.
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post #15 of 88 Old 04-08-2013, 08:47 PM
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When I ab different avrs Denon came up short to the others with most noticable was sound quality, I guess since you can buy them from the big box stores their popular but if you can do with feature there's better options, IMHO, I'm about to get flamed now from the Denon boys, but I'll stand by that audio first avr companies beat Denons pretty easily.
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post #16 of 88 Old 04-08-2013, 09:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

The government, here in the US, mandates that consumer amps be rated with all (I think it's ) "related" channels driven. At any rate every amp manufacturer interprets the regulation to mean that they can rate with left and right or any other two channels alone, and they do so.

AFAIK, no receiver has an adequate power supply to support full power output to all channels simultaneously. That would be a real problem if (a) in YOUR room with YOUR speakers at YOUR listening levels you ever need the full rated power of the amps at all and (b) there was any movie or music content that came close to having full output on all channels at the same time. You might qualify for (a) but (b) doesn't happen, AFAIK. Remember if the surround channesl are "one notch" (3 dB) quieter than the mains, they require no more than one half the power the mains are calling for. While the tyranny of doubling power for 3 dB (or 10 times power for 10 dB - twice as loud) is painful and potentially expensive on the loud end, it's kinda forgiving when your SPL needs are lower, as changes that are surely perceptible but hardly noticeable in the heat of battle cut power demands significantly.

In the end, especially since everybody plays the game the same way, either you have enough power to achieve your listening levels without audible distortion or you don't. If you do, whether you'd like to see the power specified differently is pretty much moot.

AAFAIK, the only way to know for reasonably sure how a particular receiver reacts to high power requirements for 5 or 7 simulteneous channels is to find third party testing. It's what I did, once I started hanging around here and got the mesage . . .

hey bud.. an amp is not a avr or reciever eh...

us mandates it! better get your lawyer and start sueing ....take em to the cleaners...

cheers
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post #17 of 88 Old 04-08-2013, 09:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrappyGamer View Post

Well, I am out to lunch.... but this is how my 3808CI is rated. Not saying that is the final output but it's likely close.

heres the link to last yrs model 3312ci.. notice how da power drops .. 5 channels 82 7 channels 79 w into 8 ohm no where near 125 wpc all channels driven eh..

wake up.. smell da coffee!

http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-3312ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

cheers..
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post #18 of 88 Old 04-08-2013, 09:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ryder125 View Post

When I ab different avrs Denon came up short to the others with most noticable was sound quality, I guess since you can buy them from the big box stores their popular but if you can do with feature there's better options, IMHO, I'm about to get flamed now from the Denon boys, but I'll stand by that audio first avr companies beat Denons pretty easily.

denon amps sound great if you add some power via an external amp.. as the processor dose a fine job.. for ht or stereo play back..

its the power that gives you the sound quality the more power and head room you got for music dynamics the better...

cheers..
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post #19 of 88 Old 04-09-2013, 01:44 AM
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They definitively are not out of the box, it's like you need a degree in Denon 101 sometimes but once you've done the work it should be worth it
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post #20 of 88 Old 04-09-2013, 01:47 AM
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I myself Use an Onkyo,but im not a fanboy either way.
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post #21 of 88 Old 04-09-2013, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

denon amps sound great if you add some power via an external amp.. as the processor dose a fine job.. for ht or stereo play back..

its the power that gives you the sound quality the more power and head room you got for music dynamics the better...

cheers..

this is where I stop following a thread:rolleyes:
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post #22 of 88 Old 04-09-2013, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

The most recent amplifier statue EIA490 written a few years back specifies that that all channels must be driven @ 1/8th rated power while measuring a single channel. So if the AVR is a 7.1, 6 channels are driven @ 1/8th and 1 channel to rated power output. Essentially it means that (2) channels are driven, then rated THD %, power bandwidth and load impedance are disclosed...
Since the tech standards committee was made up of representatives from Bose, Sony, Panasonic and Samsung.. 👎👎
One can kiss these off.. 😄



Just my 💰... 👍😉
EIAA is not a governmental entity. MOreover, I am sure that the 1/8 power provision is preconditioning, just like in the Federal Trade Commission rule. You can't actually find 1/8 power until you know the power.

Here's a little FTC blurb on the rule http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2000/12/amprule.shtm.

In it they say. "Under the Rule, all "associated channels" of an amplifier must be driven to full rated power simultaneously during the power measurement tests."
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post #23 of 88 Old 04-09-2013, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

hey bud.. an amp is not a avr or reciever eh...

us mandates it! better get your lawyer and start sueing ....take em to the cleaners...

cheers

struggling to grok how any of this makes sense. A receiver contains amps. Receivers are consumer devices. So the FTC rule on rating amplifiers in consumer devices applies to them. Not terribly complicated. As it happens, it seems most standalone multichannel amps are rated by their manufacturere with all channels driven.

If somebody tried to hire me to challenge the way manufacturers interpret the rule, I'd make sure they understood how slim their chances of success were before taking their money.
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post #24 of 88 Old 04-09-2013, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hargutierrez View Post

I just bought a Denon 3313 and sad to say I'm very dissatisfied with it. My old amp was an Onkyo 606, unfortunately the hdmi board got busted so I decided to get a new receiver. I chose the Denon 3313 as I read a lot of positive reviews about it, but when I hooked it up to my unit I felt really sad because Im not happy with the sound quality as well as the picture quality. Here are my concerns, maybe users of the same unit can help me.

1. It sounded thin and bright (hollow sounding). I chose this as I thought it would be an upgrade from my previous amp, however it seems that I've downgraded my old receiver mad.gif

2. The sound is not as loud as I expected, to get an acceptable sound level I have to crank it up to 80db (max is 100) and it's still not as loud compared to my previous receiver; at 50db my old receiver is able to shake the room. Is that normal? My room is very small 4 x 4 meters

3. Picture quallity is bad when hdmi is passed through the amp instead of directly to the tv. I'm using a media player and prior to buying the amp, it was connected directly to my plasma tv and picture quality was nice, but with the 3313; it's pixelated and lacked vibrance. even after disabling the upconcersion, it still looks the same. I was under the impression that without upconversion it's just passthrough but it appears it's still being processed by the receiver.

Im using an Mission M70 series speakers (M74 as fronts) and it seems that the Denon 3313 is a very bad match with it, SQ is terrible. I already ran the Audessy setup and tried manual configuration but it's the same. I have a very small room but I would have to crank the volume of the amp close to its peak but still it seems that it can't really fill my room. I chose this model as I know it's already top of the line, but I think I made a very wrong decision.

I hope someone can help me as I feel down and sad right now frown.gif

I too bought a 3313, but, unlike you I am very pleased with it. The sound quality is a big improvement over the Sony and Yamaha receivers it replaced. The Denon is the first avr I have run video thru and the picture quality is as good or better (depending on the source) than going straight to the TV. It is possible you got a lemon, it happens with all manufactures unfortunately. If you can't get it to work to your satisfaction, return it....Get something you will be happy with.

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post #25 of 88 Old 04-09-2013, 08:37 AM
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According to the FTC web site, manufactures only have to rate the 2 main channels, not the surrounds.
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post #26 of 88 Old 04-09-2013, 08:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post

The most recent amplifier statue EIA490 written a few years back specifies that that all channels must be driven @ 1/8th rated power while measuring a single channel. So if the AVR is a 7.1, 6 channels are driven @ 1/8th and 1 channel to rated power output. Essentially it means that (2) channels are driven, then rated THD %, power bandwidth and load impedance are disclosed...
Since the tech standards committee was made up of representatives from Bose, Sony, Panasonic and Samsung.. 👎👎
One can kiss these off.. 😄



Just my 💰... 👍😉
EIAA is not a governmental entity. MOreover, I am sure that the 1/8 power provision is preconditioning, just like in the Federal Trade Commission rule. You can't actually find 1/8 power until you know the power.

Here's a little FTC blurb on the rule http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2000/12/amprule.shtm.

In it they say. "Under the Rule, all "associated channels" of an amplifier must be driven to full rated power simultaneously during the power measurement tests."

must get away with it cause avr are not amps eh.. they only rate 2 channels mostly and use deceptive statements for the rest ...

the specs on amps are very clear everytime ive good to look up an amp... 200 into 8 ohm 400 into 4ohm all channels driven all the time... etc.. not avrs..

great thing about the 3313 you can add an external amp via its pre outs.. its the lowest model with pre outs...

cheers..
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post #27 of 88 Old 04-09-2013, 09:23 AM
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Don't confuse the issue..
Note the date on your link 2000 that is the outdated original amplifier statue, EIA490 was done in 2007.. eek.gif
The FTC took the EIA490 directly from the EIA now the CEA as the national trade industry. Regarding 1/8th power again it was to match the all channels driven requirement not preconditioning..
Today's AVR power ratings are BS****...
Just like in car audio, stay with the established brands for more honest performance and specs...
Or go to separate components...


Just my 💰.... 👍😉
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post #28 of 88 Old 04-09-2013, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

must get away with it cause avr are not amps eh.. they only rate 2 channels mostly and use deceptive statements for the rest ...

the specs on amps are very clear everytime ive good to look up an amp... 200 into 8 ohm 400 into 4ohm all channels driven all the time... etc.. not avrs..

great thing about the 3313 you can add an external amp via its pre outs.. its the lowest model with pre outs...

cheers..

Actually no. IN case it is important to somebody (clealy you're just having fun, which is fine)

The FTC rule is "Rule Relating to Power Output Claims for Amplifiers Utilized in Home Entertainment Products - the 'Amplifier Rule.' "

The FTC rule covers all amplifiers utilized in home entertainment products. That includes, in case it's hard to wrap your head around, standalone mono,, stereo and multichannel "amplifiers" and AVR receivers, because both contain "amplifiers" for home use.

Like I said, most standalone amps don't bother to take advantage of the "associated channels" provision of the FTC rule. But it's not illegal to specify more stringently than the rule requires.

So, the amps in receivers MUST be "amplifiers" because if they're not "amplifiers" the "amplifier rule" doesn't apply to them, right? And they don't even need to worry about interpreting the "associated channels" provision favorably to themselves if the rule simply does not apply to them, right?
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post #29 of 88 Old 04-09-2013, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Don't confuse the issue..
Note the date on your link 2000 that is the outdated original amplifier statue, EIA490 was done in 2007.. eek.gif
The FTC took the EIA490 directly from the EIA now the CEA as the national trade industry. Regarding 1/8th power again it was to match the all channels driven requirement not preconditioning..
Today's AVR power ratings are BS****...
Just like in car audio, stay with the established brands for more honest performance and specs...
Or go to separate components...


Just my 💰.... 👍😉

Assuming your response was to me, I’m just entirely lost, Clearly you did not click on the link, but made an assumption because the number 2000 appears in there. The FTC blurb I linked is related to 2012 changes to the regulation, which were made in 2012 not 2000. The EIA is not the government, and in the end you have to meet the government’s interpretation regardless of where they get the meat of their regs from. Unless adopted by a governmental agency, none of the industry group standards are law. That includes ANSI etc. They’re voluntary organizations developing voluntary standards (although most manufacturers follow them for a variety of good reasons).

At any rate, just to be massively clear the FTC rule says the changes include one to

“reduce the power output requirement during the one-hour preconditioning period from one-third of rated output to one-eighth of rated output . . .;

“One hour preconditioning period” is pretty clear to me . . .

And to requote what I quoted before just in case you might actually bother to think about what it says this time

“Under the Rule, all "associated channels" of an amplifier must be driven to full rated power simultaneously during the power measurement tests.”

Full power just can’t be the same as 1/8 power, now can it?
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post #30 of 88 Old 04-09-2013, 01:09 PM
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Let's just not buy anymore stuff from these folks cause obviously they are all ignorant of the law. And why are these felons not in jail for blantantly misleading us all. And I want my money back for every reciever I've ever bought !!!
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