Will there be a difference in sound quality between the 1913 and 3313ci? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 17 Old 04-18-2013, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey there, I just finished upgrading all my speakers to the PSB image series. Specs here: http://www.psbspeakers.com/content/121003090243-PSB-Image-Specs_English_Sep17.pdf

I'm using the T5's as fronts, c5 and b5's for surounds. My receiver has been running quite hot, and speaking with a Denon rep, he said that the speakers were too much for the 1913 and I should upgrade to at least a 3313ci. I live in an apartment, and can't go crazy with the volume, and the 1913 WILL play them distortion free quite loud, however again it runs very hot. Other then the obvious extra 2 listening positions in the MultiEQ from Auddessy, the Pre out's ( if I decide to bi wire my fronts, which the Denon rep also told me I should do to take advantage of them ) - would there be an obvious difference it overall sound quality? (Obviously not cranking it to 11, just for general movie / music / soundtrack use) .. I'm torn between picking a refurbished 3313ci I saw on sale for 750 + tax, or finishing my speaker upgrade by matching my surround rears ( The Fronts and sides are PSB, the rears are from an older system, fluance AVBP ) - Thoughts?
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post #2 of 17 Old 04-18-2013, 09:34 PM
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Honestly, I'd probably upgrade to the 3313ci just for the better Audyssey room correction. You'll get more power and the ability to add external amps for even more power and/or more speakers. AVRs tend to run hot because so much is packed into such a small footprint. The 3313ci is probably going to be hotter.

I would imagine that the sound quality would be pretty close. You'll just get more power and more features.

If your rear speakers are of a similar driver configuration to the rest of your speakers, then it probably won't make much, if any, difference.

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post #3 of 17 Old 04-18-2013, 09:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jevans64 View Post

Honestly, I'd probably upgrade to the 3313ci just for the better Audyssey room correction. You'll get more power and the ability to add external amps for even more power and/or more speakers. AVRs tend to run hot because so much is packed into such a small footprint. The 3313ci is probably going to be hotter.

I would imagine that the sound quality would be pretty close. You'll just get more power and more features.

If your rear speakers are of a similar driver configuration to the rest of your speakers, then it probably won't make much, if any, difference.

Fair enough, well actually as the rears are from an older system, I seriously doubt they're ANYTHING like the psb's - in that the PSB 's cost 4 x as much and are pretty much tied for the best speaker company in Canada along side Paradigm, the rears are Fluance Bi-poles - great if you're on a budget, but nowhere near as good. Just to begin with the PSB b5 bookshelves have an internal crossover of 45hz, and the fluance biploar rears have a crossover of 130 ..
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post #4 of 17 Old 04-18-2013, 11:54 PM
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I'm using Denon 3313, which is far superior to my older Onkyo 809. My speakers are Klipsch (RF-82 II, RC-62 II, RS-52 II), which present fairly easier load (8 ohms) for 3313 to handle and they can be pushed beyond reference without clipping. So, no issue of 3313 getting hot here. Fantastic channel seperation and very accurate bass reporduction along with taller, wider, and deeper sound stage in movies. Pure direct is not as good. I liked the PD feature of my older Yamaha RX-V3900, which I think is the best for me in in audio performance.

I have no experience with Denon 1913, so can't compare it with 3313. Another thing, 3313 is not 4 ohm stable. Overall, fantastic avr.
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if I decide to bi wire my fronts, which the Denon rep also told me I should do to take advantage of them ) - would there be an obvious difference it overall sound quality? would there be an obvious difference it overall sound quality?

No. That's passive bi-amping, which has no real world benefits IMHO. This should not be triggering factor for you to switch to 3313. The deciding factors are......fantastic channel seperation, tactile 3D sound, airplay, fantastic video chipset, 4K passthrough, etc. goodluck

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post #5 of 17 Old 04-18-2013, 11:56 PM
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Those speakers are not likely too much for the 1913, rather the bulk of the heat is being generated by the video chip not the amps. Also, you should have the FL/FR speakers set to SMALL/80Hz if you have a sub in your setup (and if not, a sub would be a better purchase than upgrading the AVR). Neither "bi-wiring" nor "bi-amping" will provide any real benefit in either additional power or audio quality so focus more on upgrading the speakers and not on using additional speaker wire. The additional 2 positions from MultEQ XT is not as important as the fact that XT uses 8x more speaker EQ control points than does MultEQ. If you are playing the 1913 at distortion free levels now, the additional power in the 3313CI won't be noticed. In the end, although XT would provide for better quality than MultEQ, you would likely be much better served upgrading speakers/sub rather than the AVR. Focus on upgrading the AVR as the "next" upgrade after upgrading the speakers/sub.

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post #6 of 17 Old 04-19-2013, 12:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

I'm using Denon 3313, which is far superior to my older Onkyo 809. My speakers are Klipsch (RF-82 II, RC-62 II, RS-52 II), which present fairly easier load (8 ohms) for 3313 to handle and they can be pushed beyond reference without clipping. So, no issue of 3313 getting hot here. Fantastic channel seperation and very accurate bass reporduction along with taller, wider, and deeper sound stage in movies. Pure direct is not as good. I liked the PD feature of my older Yamaha RX-V3900, which I think is the best for me in in audio performance.

I have no experience with Denon 1913, so can't compare it with 3313. Another thing, 3313 is not 4 ohm stable. Overall, fantastic avr.
No. That's passive bi-amping, which has no real world benefits IMHO. This should not be triggering factor for you to switch to 3313. The deciding factors are......fantastic channel seperation, tactile 3D sound, airplay, fantastic video chipset, 4K passthrough, etc. goodluck

Well I believe the 1913 has those extra benefits actually, it sounds great, I've always loved Denon and when I bought this earlier in the year, it absolutely demolished the Sony STRDN 1030 ( the competing model with wifi ) sound wise. I just wanted to know if would make a difference clarity wise. I rarely use Pure infact, but love the Denon's built in processing features. I have a feeling I'd just be adding features and power, and not really changing the sound, ( which is already excellent ) ...

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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Those speakers are not likely too much for the 1913, rather the bulk of the heat is being generated by the video chip not the amps. Also, you should have the FL/FR speakers set to SMALL/80Hz if you have a sub in your setup (and if not, a sub would be a better purchase than upgrading the AVR). Neither "bi-wiring" nor "bi-amping" will provide any real benefit in either additional power or audio quality so focus more on upgrading the speakers and not on using additional speaker wire. The additional 2 positions from MultEQ XT is not as important as the fact that XT uses 8x more speaker EQ control points than does MultEQ. If you are playing the 1913 at distortion free levels now, the additional power in the 3313CI won't be noticed. In the end, although XT would provide for better quality than MultEQ, you would likely be much better served upgrading speakers/sub rather than the AVR. Focus on upgrading the AVR as the "next" upgrade after upgrading the speakers/sub.

Hmm, well the reason I thought it might be is because the Denon Rep I was on the line with re: heat said exactly that, and I'd be much better served considering the speakers I'm using to purchase at least the 3313 to drive them. These are my new speakers, The PSB image series, I bought the T5 Towers, C5 Center, and B5 surrounds, and spent close to 2000 dollars on them last month, but the receiver does get much hotter with these then my previous budget set. The only set I haven't upgraded are my rear surrounds, I'm still running the old bi polar Fluance set, and they are no where near matched in terms of just about everything, crossover frequency, materials, etc.. But as my budget is fairly exhausted, I figured I had to make the decision between the two ( upgrade AVR to the 3313 or complete the PSB set with another pair of b5's for my rear ) ... As the sound quality is already quite good, I have a feeling I would just be adding some features, the main one being power, at 125 watts compared to 90 watts per channel. Of course the 3313ci has the pre - outs, which the Denon rep also was adamant that I use to bi amp my towers to take full advantage of them, but it's entirely possible he was just trying to sell me on a new receiver. It also sounds like passive bi amping from what people are telling me is pretty useless, and I'm not about to mess with trying to bi pass the internal crossovers on these puppies, as Paul Barton researches the heck out of to get the best sound from all his speaker lines.

I think from all the input I've gotten, I've talked myself out of the 3313 for now, not because it's not a great receiver, but because I don't need the additional features at the moment, and if the extra 35 watts won't really make a huge difference except at very high output levels, ( I 'm only in a medium sized room ), I think I'll hold off, and finish the speaker set by replacing the rears tomorrow.
I think I'll start socking some money away, and then next Christmas try to pick up a 4312 or 4313 - to give myself the option of 9.2... ( front height sounds delicious wink.gif )

Thanks for your valuable insight!
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post #7 of 17 Old 04-19-2013, 12:27 AM
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Just an FYI .. the 43XX naming convention was discontinued when the 4520CI replaced the 4311CI.

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post #8 of 17 Old 04-19-2013, 12:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Just an FYI .. the 43XX naming convention was discontinued when the 4520CI replaced the 4311CI.

Ahh fair enough, I'll know what to look for when the time comes then wink.gif Unless I have a last minute change of heart tomorrow morning and grab the 3313 smile.gif
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post #9 of 17 Old 04-19-2013, 12:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Just an FYI .. the 43XX naming convention was discontinued when the 4520CI replaced the 4311CI.

Oh, and just realized I didn't fully answer your question, I just added a new sub as well, to give me two of them. They don't match that being said, and was leaning towards buying a second matching sub, but with a spl meter was able to get them, at least gain wise, to similar volumes. The sound is really a big upgrade having two, and although I'm sure it's not perfect with them not being matched, I haven't been able to tell one distorting over the other at all, they sound quite good as is. ( but that's a whole other conversation ) .. I also have all the speakers set to small, however have played with the speakers at 80 and 60, and prefer the 60 settings, this actually might be one of the things helping heat up the 1913 so much, but they seem to blend a little more seamlessly with the subs smile.gif
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post #10 of 17 Old 04-19-2013, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

Ahh fair enough, I'll know what to look for when the time comes then wink.gif Unless I have a last minute change of heart tomorrow morning and grab the 3313 smile.gif

Well. The new X4000 ( 3313ci replacement ) should be out by then and, if rumors are true, will have MultEQ XT32. The AVR-3313ci is already 86ed but maybe any refurbs might be at the current $600 the 3312ci is at now.

The X4000 may well be the top offering for the 2013-14 year.

Denon X5000??? LOL

I hope there won't be an X6000 since it would remind me too much of this. LOL

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Is that clip from Robocop??
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post #12 of 17 Old 04-20-2013, 12:39 AM
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Is that clip from Robocop??

Yes. LOL

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post #13 of 17 Old 08-01-2013, 09:11 PM
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Likely the Denon rep was trying to make sale. Your nominal impedance is 8 ohms; although the load is 'complex' [freq dependent], with that nominal impedance and the about 90db efficiency, there should be no issue.
I'm not so sure why so many folks are worried about heat. What's hot to you is not hot to semiconductors, and you're not likely to able to discern the die temperature by the amount of heat given off by the receiver.
I think you may well notice a difference in the sonic performance of 1913 vs 3313, as the power is about 50% more. Sure you may normally drive the speakers at a relatively low output, but given the huge dynamics available in some soundtracks coupled with a bump up in the volume setting for an action movie [ or concert for that matter] and I think you could have a better audio experience, esp when driving 5 or even 7 speakers. In fact I'm replacing my 1910 with a 3313 in the very near future. My speakers a few db less efficient than yours.... cheers

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post #14 of 17 Old 08-01-2013, 09:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow that's an older post smile.gif but thanks for your reply anyways. I just bought the X-4000 last week .. So I'm all set.
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post #15 of 17 Old 08-07-2013, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton View Post

Wow that's an older post smile.gif but thanks for your reply anyways. I just bought the X-4000 last week .. So I'm all set.

My refurbished AVR-3313CI will arrive tomorrow. Since the audio performance should be the same as your X-4000, it would be interesting to compare notes, since we are also upgrading from essentially the same receiver [1910, 1913].
I also have an AVR-2113CI in my living room and had borrowed it for my HT for a few days, and have also used a Pioneer VSX-1016 [120W]...

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post #16 of 17 Old 08-08-2013, 12:04 AM - Thread Starter
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My refurbished AVR-3313CI will arrive tomorrow. Since the audio performance should be the same as your X-4000, it would be interesting to compare notes, since we are also upgrading from essentially the same receiver [1910, 1913].
I also have an AVR-2113CI in my living room and had borrowed it for my HT for a few days, and have also used a Pioneer VSX-1016 [120W]...

Hmm.. Well the X -4000 has Audyssey XT 32 and subEQ as opposed to Multieq on the 3313, so although I doubt very much has changed with respect to the sound of the Denon Amps and the power rating ( 125watts per channel ) in the year between models, the extra sound processing is sure to make a discernible difference. I considered going with a refurb 3313 too - but couldn't resist the promise of XT32 to be honest, and I like the fact you can now use any video source with any input. So if I wan't to listen to a record and surf the web on my HTPC at the same time - no problem! ... I did actually get a Marantz 6007 refurb right before this, but it had problems right out of the box with distortion on all the hdmi inputs - probably the same problem that made it a " refurb " in the first place, where the techs didn't do their homework. Of the two ( X4000 and SR6007 ) the sound for movies is much improved with the addition of the extra sound processing - however I did notice the Marantz produced a little more detailed sound for music. The SR6007 is supposed to be near identical to the 3313 - if this is the case I think you'll love it.
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post #17 of 17 Old 08-08-2013, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeBrehznev View Post

My refurbished AVR-3313CI will arrive tomorrow. Since the audio performance should be the same as your X-4000, it would be interesting to compare notes, since we are also upgrading from essentially the same receiver [1910, 1913].
I also have an AVR-2113CI in my living room and had borrowed it for my HT for a few days, and have also used a Pioneer VSX-1016 [120W]...

Actually the boost in audio quality going from the 3313CI to the X4000 should be quite noticeable as others have noted over the years going from a MultEQ XT model (like the 3313CI) to an XT32 model (like the X4000).

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