Does someone make a high end surround sound processor (think Anthem) with only HDMI in/out puts? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 04-29-2013, 07:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Does someone make a high end surround sound processor (think Anthem) with only HDMI in/out puts?

It kills me that all theses companies make huge pieces of equipment with all theses legacy ports, when everything theses days is HDMI. If I need to run a legacy piece of equipment, I'll connect it to my TV directly... Thanks!

Doug
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post #2 of 21 Old 04-29-2013, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capwkidd View Post

Does someone make a high end surround sound processor (think Anthem) with only HDMI in/out puts?

It kills me that all theses companies make huge pieces of equipment with all theses legacy ports, when everything theses days is HDMI. If I need to run a legacy piece of equipment, I'll connect it to my TV directly... Thanks!

Doug
I can see the need for one or two optical/coax and analog inputs but you are correct having s-video,component and a couple of rows of video and l&r inputs are clutter these days not to mention the spider web of wires that HDMI eliminated.
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post #3 of 21 Old 04-30-2013, 01:52 AM
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You expect your dream audio 'processor' to drive power amps via HDMI? eek.gif

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #4 of 21 Old 04-30-2013, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

You expect your dream audio 'processor' to drive power amps via HDMI? eek.gif
I understand what he was saying and of course you have to have certain things like speaker outputs,power cords and antenna but to have rows of un-used legacy
inputs that you pay for and don't use is a waste and everyone concerned with high end technically has moved on anyway.
Not to mention how crowed some are when you go to remove or replace a piece of gear then you read threads where it was working before I did this or that only to hear them say they must have bumped the connection next to it reseat then it works and it would just look cleaner.
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post #5 of 21 Old 04-30-2013, 10:47 AM
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If you consider Emotiva, their UMC-200 does not have legacy video.

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post #6 of 21 Old 04-30-2013, 11:09 AM
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You're not actually paying much for these "legacy" inputs, even entry level $200 receivers have them. Also, what someone thinks is useless legacy input is going to depend on the person. For example, I'd argue that most people have more use for analogue stereo analogue audio inputs than optical/coaxial digital audio inputs. If HDMI ARC worked more reliabily, I think we might have already seen optical/coaxial jacks disappear from some entry level AV receivers.

The original poster seems to be looking for an AV pre-processor, basically an AV receiver without power amps and speaker terminals. That's something you have to pay extra money for, so the cost of these unused legacy inputs shouldn't be problem. I think he forgot mention that he also wants it to have analogue pre-outs (maybe even XLR balanced). Otherwise what he's asking for is a cheap HDMI switch, which like Kilian.ca suggests isn't going to work any power amp ever made.

From the sounds of things he just wants something small, but I don't think legacy connections have much to with size as you might think either. The relatlviely slim Emotiva and Outlaw pre-pros have a number legacy connections, while your more typical pre-pro is a huge monster. When you spend $1500 or more for only half of an AV receiver, the expectation for most people seems to be that not only are they getting a big impressive box to put on their shelves, they should be getting a big impressive number of connections at the back as well.
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post #7 of 21 Old 04-30-2013, 12:16 PM
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After looking at the back of the new Denon 4520 it appears to already be happening at one time every square inch of a Denon flagship was covered with in/outputs not the case anymore.
Same thing with the Onkyo 5010 there are some but nowhere near the amount they had from previous years.
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post #8 of 21 Old 04-30-2013, 12:35 PM
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The Denon AVR-4520CI has more connectors per-square inch (and more legacy connectors) on the back than any other AV receiver Denon (or just about anyone else) makes these days, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with that model. If you want to find something with a lot of empty space at back then look at an entry level AV receiver. On the other hand, if you're looking for something with almost no empty space at the back, then you need to look at a pre-pro.
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post #9 of 21 Old 04-30-2013, 12:55 PM
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The probelm is manufacturers want to sell as many of any given device as they can. The per-piece cost (including manufacturing cost with a longer run, design and government approvals) goes down as the quantity goes up. To make a unit that just fits me means they have to make maybe 10 other units that just fit other potential customers. So a midlevel unit suddenly becomes multiple boutique models and each one is significantly more expensive to buy than the "one size fits all" would have been.

Besides, among the cork sniffer high enders, absence of analog audio inputs would likely be a deal killer because then what would they do with their expensive disc players and outboard dacs?
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post #10 of 21 Old 04-30-2013, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Ridge View Post

The Denon AVR-4520CI has more connectors per-square inch (and more legacy connectors) on the back than any other AV receiver Denon (or just about anyone else) makes these days, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with that model. If you want to find something with a lot of empty space at back then look at an entry level AV receiver. On the other hand, if you're looking for something with almost no empty space at the back, then you need to look at a pre-pro.
My point was as stated go back a year or two and look at the back of a flagship denon there is no blank space period meaning they have already started eliminating rows of legacy ports.
The Pioneer SC-68 seems to have at least as many if not more which is a shame since we are talking high end there is nothing high end about standard video connections and phono connections without MC .
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post #11 of 21 Old 04-30-2013, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

The probelm is manufacturers want to sell as many of any given device as they can. The per-piece cost (including manufacturing cost with a longer run, design and government approvals) goes down as the quantity goes up. To make a unit that just fits me means they have to make maybe 10 other units that just fit other potential customers. So a midlevel unit suddenly becomes multiple boutique models and each one is significantly more expensive to buy than the "one size fits all" would have been.

Besides, among the cork sniffer high enders, absence of analog audio inputs would likely be a deal killer because then what would they do with their expensive disc players and outboard dacs?
Most of those snub their nose at AVR's and look at esoteric pre-pros.
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post #12 of 21 Old 04-30-2013, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by oztech View Post

My point was as stated go back a year or two and look at the back of a flagship denon there is no blank space period meaning they have already started eliminating rows of legacy ports.

Compared to the AVR-4311CI, Denon's flagship from a year or two ago, the back of the AVR-4520CI lost 2 S-Video inputs, 1 composite input, 1 optical output and gained 2 composite outputs and 1 component output. (The AVR-4520CI also lost a composite input at the front.) That's actually net gain of about 1 RCA jacks worth space used for legacy connections on the back, not the elimination of entire rows.

However, despite the AVR-4520CI being a bad example, if you look at AV receivers generally, like the entry level models I previously suggested would make a better example, then you will see a reduction in the number of legacy connectors. This something that anyone who's paid any attention to the market for the last few years should find obvious. However, no one has come close to removing them completely, and the reduction hasn't resulted in receivers getting any smaller or any cheaper. There's just more empty space at the back of receivers now.

Empty space is not something most consumers see as adding value.
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post #13 of 21 Old 04-30-2013, 04:16 PM
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It will be interesting to see what the back of these units look like at CEDIA this year.
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post #14 of 21 Old 04-30-2013, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capwkidd View Post

Does someone make a high end surround sound processor (think Anthem) with only HDMI in/out puts?

It kills me that all theses companies make huge pieces of equipment with all theses legacy ports, when everything theses days is HDMI. If I need to run a legacy piece of equipment, I'll connect it to my TV directly... Thanks!

Doug
NuForce announced their AVP-18 not too long ago.

http://www.nuforce.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=290:udac-2&Itemid=387

After reading about it, and the Emotiva UMC-200....it makes you wonder if it is the UMC-200 without an analog section.

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post #15 of 21 Old 04-30-2013, 04:42 PM
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Heh. Take the Emotiva EMC-200 (or Outlaw 975), remove all the analogue inputs, keep it the about the same size and double the price.

Sounds about right.
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post #16 of 21 Old 04-30-2013, 06:04 PM
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Current HiFi meaning balanced audio pathway HDMI processors suffer from being not so modern when it comes to video processing as these boutique companies cater mainly to audiophiles, except Denon but even the A1 is getting older

This is my order:

1. Classe SSP-800
2. Denon AVP-A1HDCI
3. Theta Digital forgot model.
4. A few others, McIntoshes are Denon knockoffs but don't say this too loud, the fanbase is rabidly supportive.

As for Anthem, never another one for me after the D2 I had for 3 months. I fiercely love my Paradigm Signatures
but the Anthem arm of the business was not up to par at least until a few years ago.
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post #17 of 21 Old 05-04-2013, 01:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Ridge View Post

You're not actually paying much for these "legacy" inputs, even entry level $200 receivers have them. Also, what someone thinks is useless legacy input is going to depend on the person. For example, I'd argue that most people have more use for analogue stereo analogue audio inputs than optical/coaxial digital audio inputs. If HDMI ARC worked more reliabily, I think we might have already seen optical/coaxial jacks disappear from some entry level AV receivers.

The original poster seems to be looking for an AV pre-processor, basically an AV receiver without power amps and speaker terminals. That's something you have to pay extra money for, so the cost of these unused legacy inputs shouldn't be problem. I think he forgot mention that he also wants it to have analogue pre-outs (maybe even XLR balanced). Otherwise what he's asking for is a cheap HDMI switch, which like Kilian.ca suggests isn't going to work any power amp ever made.

Yes, I am just looking for digital inputs, and XLR outputs.... a "pre/pro" preamp processor.....

From the sounds of things he just wants something small, but I don't think legacy connections have much to with size as you might think either. The relatlviely slim Emotiva and Outlaw pre-pros have a number legacy connections, while your more typical pre-pro is a huge monster. When you spend $1500 or more for only half of an AV receiver, the expectation for most people seems to be that not only are they getting a big impressive box to put on their shelves, they should be getting a big impressive number of connections at the back as well.

More components = more electronics = more noise / reduction in sound quality ..... More is less in this case, and less is more..... Also, I would have to adjust my shelving which is hard to do with my rack, so, a slimmer unit is preferred smile.gif
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post #18 of 21 Old 05-04-2013, 02:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

The probelm is manufacturers want to sell as many of any given device as they can. The per-piece cost (including manufacturing cost with a longer run, design and government approvals) goes down as the quantity goes up. To make a unit that just fits me means they have to make maybe 10 other units that just fit other potential customers. So a midlevel unit suddenly becomes multiple boutique models and each one is significantly more expensive to buy than the "one size fits all" would have been.

Besides, among the cork sniffer high enders, absence of analog audio inputs would likely be a deal killer because then what would they do with their expensive disc players and outboard dacs?

That's why I would want the best sounding pre/pro I can afford..... So I do not need to use another DAC... Cork sniffer? Haha
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post #19 of 21 Old 05-04-2013, 02:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

NuForce announced their AVP-18 not too long ago.

http://www.nuforce.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=290:udac-2&Itemid=387

After reading about it, and the Emotiva UMC-200....it makes you wonder if it is the UMC-200 without an analog section.

The NuForce looks interesting, but I am familiar with there sound quality level, and I am hoping for more.... I can always try this one out and see how it sounds..... I'll check it out at the upcoming hifi show here in SoCal..... Thanks for the heads up wink.gif

But, why no XLR outs???
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post #20 of 21 Old 05-04-2013, 02:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bobpaule View Post

Current HiFi meaning balanced audio pathway HDMI processors suffer from being not so modern when it comes to video processing as these boutique companies cater mainly to audiophiles, except Denon but even the A1 is getting older

This is my order:

1. Classe SSP-800
2. Denon AVP-A1HDCI
3. Theta Digital forgot model.
4. A few others, McIntoshes are Denon knockoffs but don't say this too loud, the fanbase is rabidly supportive.

As for Anthem, never another one for me after the D2 I had for 3 months. I fiercely love my Paradigm Signatures
but the Anthem arm of the business was not up to par at least until a few years ago.

Anthem not up to par? How so? I had a Cary Cinema 12 and an Anthem 50v briefly that.... ended up going for a PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC for my pre-DAC..... I don't remember comparing it's sound to the Anthem.... The Anthem was even more money than this DAC..... Theta's are VERY expensive, just like MSB's, I know of someone who uses an MSB for his DAC, then have a Theta for surround sound, with the fronts going to the analog ins on his MSB.... I wish the Perfect Wave DAC had analog ins!
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post #21 of 21 Old 05-04-2013, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by capwkidd View Post

But, why no XLR outs???

Well... that would double the size and likely the price as well.

You might want to the check out the NuForce AVP-18 thread here. It was supposed to be released April 30th but missed that date with no word on when it would actually be released.

Though, I doubt the AVP-18 is significantly less complex than the EMC-200. Multichannel volume control chips also include intergrated analogue audio switches, so that circuitry is likely in the AVP-18 even its unused.
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