Denon AVR-3313ci or Denon AVR-X4000 - AVS Forum
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Receivers, Amps, and Processors > Denon AVR-3313ci or Denon AVR-X4000
gatorfreak's Avatar gatorfreak 01:09 PM 05-01-2013
I noticed the 3313ci is on sale and wanted to get some input on which to purchase the 3313ci or the X4000. Looking at the specs don't see a huge difference. I own the 3311ci already and really enjoy it. I see the X4000 has Audyssey MultEQ XT32 instead of the XT, another set of main speaker outputs but that is all I see at a quick glance. Love to hear people input.

Thanks

mjpearce023's Avatar mjpearce023 03:20 PM 05-01-2013
I have the 3311 as well and I'm thinking about getting the X4000 because of XT32. The 3313 wouldn't be a big enough upgrade from the 3311 for me to consider it.
jdsmoothie's Avatar jdsmoothie 06:33 PM 05-01-2013
HUGE difference with the upgrade to Audyssey MultEQ XT32 on the X4000 as well as the "All Zone Stereo" capability to play the same HDMI audio playing in the main zone to Zones 2/3 as well as the return of the capability to pass optical/digital coax to Zones 2/3.
sharok's Avatar sharok 04:53 PM 05-02-2013
Does X4000 have a "Pre-Amp" mode just like 4311 and 4520?
jdsmoothie's Avatar jdsmoothie 05:00 PM 05-02-2013
No, but then that feature doesn't power off the unit's amps anyway .... rather simply disconnects the signal from passing to them.
gatorfreak's Avatar gatorfreak 12:32 PM 05-03-2013
So sounds to me it would be better to hold off updating my Yamaha RX-V2400 and get the new Denon X4000. I want to be able to run my 2 main, center and all three sets of in ceiling speakers with power when just listening to music. Right now achieve that by using a speaker selector box with my Yamaha RX-V2400. Not the best situation I have been told.
originalsnuffy's Avatar originalsnuffy 04:19 PM 05-03-2013
Every so often I reconsider whether I should upgrade by 3806. I really like that unit, but it has limited audio processing. So I rely on my Blu-Ray player, HTPC, and Dune for the surround audio processing right now.

Both of these receivers look nice. I gather the Audyssey processing on the new unit is better. The zone processing is not important to me.

Any other trade offs, especially with regard to the remotes, SACD processing over HDMI, or external audio inputs?

Overall, it looks like the new model is the way to go but I suspect it will not be available at good discounts at first.

Thanks.
jdsmoothie's Avatar jdsmoothie 05:43 PM 05-03-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorfreak View Post

So sounds to me it would be better to hold off updating my Yamaha RX-V2400 and get the new Denon X4000. I want to be able to run my 2 main, center and all three sets of in ceiling speakers with power when just listening to music. Right now achieve that by using a speaker selector box with my Yamaha RX-V2400. Not the best situation I have been told.

Correct, although not likely too bad for background listening levels only.
jdsmoothie's Avatar jdsmoothie 05:46 PM 05-03-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by originalsnuffy View Post

Every so often I reconsider whether I should upgrade by 3806. I really like that unit, but it has limited audio processing. So I rely on my Blu-Ray player, HTPC, and Dune for the surround audio processing right now.

Both of these receivers look nice. I gather the Audyssey processing on the new unit is better. The zone processing is not important to me.

Any other trade offs, especially with regard to the remotes, SACD processing over HDMI, or external audio inputs?

Overall, it looks like the new model is the way to go but I suspect it will not be available at good discounts at first.

Thanks.

Audyssey processing on the new X4000 is much better and worth the extra few hundred $$$ difference between the two models. Both use similar remotes as well as being capable of DSD over HDMI, however, neither has EXT audio inputs as that feature only exists on the 4520CI.
originalsnuffy's Avatar originalsnuffy 07:15 AM 05-04-2013
I gather that Denon remotes nowadays are no longer learning remotes. Am I correct that they do not even include codes for other brands and components?

Right now the external audio inputs mattter, as I feed an older Denon SACD player into my receiver. If I go ahead with this project, I will pick up an Oppo for the SACD duties and feed that audio via HDMI so I should be OK.

At least these units have a phono input and some component inputs, which I do need.

I do like the idea that by default the new unit passes through the cable box hdmi even when it is off. That works well in my environment.
david12's Avatar david12 07:27 AM 05-04-2013
Interesting, I have an avr-989 that I love; sounds like it might be time to look at upgrading in terms of Audyssey processing.

Although, the amplifier portion of my unit is excellent and it has been trouble free. It is just a good yet basic receiver.
jdsmoothie's Avatar jdsmoothie 07:54 AM 05-04-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by originalsnuffy View Post

I gather that Denon remotes nowadays are no longer learning remotes. Am I correct that they do not even include codes for other brands and components?

Right now the external audio inputs mattter, as I feed an older Denon SACD player into my receiver. If I go ahead with this project, I will pick up an Oppo for the SACD duties and feed that audio via HDMI so I should be OK.

At least these units have a phono input and some component inputs, which I do need.

I do like the idea that by default the new unit passes through the cable box hdmi even when it is off. That works well in my environment.

The 3313CI and X4000 are the only 2012/2013 models that have remotes that can control other devices, while the 4520CI is the only current model with a "learning" remote. The better solution is to use a Harmony remote. Most prefer the DSD over HDMI processed to PCM by the player first as it allows for Audyssey while using the EXT inputs or passing the DSD to the AVR to process (ie. DSD DIRECT) does not.
sharok's Avatar sharok 09:51 PM 05-05-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The 3313CI and X4000 are the only 2012/2013 models that have remotes that can control other devices, while the 4520CI is the only current model with a "learning" remote. The better solution is to use a Harmony remote. Most prefer the DSD over HDMI processing as it allows for Audyssey while using the EXT inputs does not.

Does X4000 do DSD over HDMI? or Does X4000 converts the DSD to PCM first in order to use Audyssey?
originalsnuffy's Avatar originalsnuffy 10:09 PM 05-05-2013
The specs state dsd over hdmi is available. Of course one could convert to PCM on the player. But as previously noted that reduces the functionality of the audyssey


When is the x4000 expected to be available? . Looks like my next machine !
jdsmoothie's Avatar jdsmoothie 04:38 AM 05-06-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharok View Post

Does X4000 do DSD over HDMI? or Does X4000 converts the DSD to PCM first in order to use Audyssey?

Yes. The 3313CI, X3000, and X4000 all do DSD over HDMI. Audyssey can be used only when the player converts it to PCM first.

The X3000 and X4000 should be available from Denon within the next week or two and likely from other "authorized" resellers at the end of the month.
ambesolman's Avatar ambesolman 10:16 PM 05-06-2013
I'm looking to upgrade my receiver soon as well. I'm on my second Sony reciever (4400 ES, 4y/o, non3d so I have to play 3d on ps3 and have only lossy surround via optical), the first is about 10yrs old and still going strong. Sony's all I've owned and they've been completely trouble free and easy to use. However, I'm really wanting to upgrade for the xt32 and sub eq. Onkyo is always feature packed but the many reported problems and failures make me wary. Denon seems to be a little more reliable while still having many of the same features. I really like the ability of the x4000 to output digital inputs to a second zone, something I've wished my Sony had so I could send digital out from my airport to the screen porch. Since the denon has built in AirPlay this doesn't really matter I guess. But, would I be able to send the audio from an appletv via Hdmi to the second zone now? Also, what is DSD and what's the big whoop?
jdsmoothie's Avatar jdsmoothie 04:58 AM 05-07-2013
Yes, you would be able to (1) send AppleTV HDMI audio (PCM 2.0) to Zone 2 speakers connected to either the AVR's speaker posts or via an external amp connected to the Zone 2 pre-outs as well as (2) sending audio AND video to either a Zone 2 TV or AVR connected to the Zone 2 (HDMI) output as long as the AppleTV is plugged into one of the rear panel HDMI jacks.

SACD = Super Audio CD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Audio_CD
Skylinestar's Avatar Skylinestar 05:10 AM 05-07-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post

I'm looking to upgrade my receiver soon as well. I'm on my second Sony reciever (4400 ES, 4y/o, non3d so I have to play 3d on ps3 and have only lossy surround via optical), the first is about 10yrs old and still going strong. Sony's all I've owned and they've been completely trouble free and easy to use. However, I'm really wanting to upgrade for the xt32 and sub eq. Onkyo is always feature packed but the many reported problems and failures make me wary. Denon seems to be a little more reliable while still having many of the same features. I really like the ability of the x4000 to output digital inputs to a second zone, something I've wished my Sony had so I could send digital out from my airport to the screen porch. Since the denon has built in AirPlay this doesn't really matter I guess. But, would I be able to send the audio from an appletv via Hdmi to the second zone now? Also, what is DSD and what's the big whoop?
DSD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Stream_Digital
Used for SACD.
deltadube's Avatar deltadube 01:31 PM 05-07-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorfreak View Post

I noticed the 3313ci is on sale and wanted to get some input on which to purchase the 3313ci or the X4000. Looking at the specs don't see a huge difference. I own the 3311ci already and really enjoy it. I see the X4000 has Audyssey MultEQ XT32 instead of the XT, another set of main speaker outputs but that is all I see at a quick glance. Love to hear people input.

Thanks

are you using it for ht ? do you have subs? are your subs sounding good with your system?

if yes yes and yes .. no need to upgrade...

the sub eq is a key feature with the xt 32 room correction...

just need to add external amps for da power..

the amp in the denon is weak for my speakers and tastes in spl..

cheers
WilliamG's Avatar WilliamG 12:01 PM 05-08-2013
I have the 3313 and the Odyssey mic setup is useless, just like it was useless on my 3312 (before it died). I honestly can't believe people actually would buy a receiver based on the Odyssey setup, but maybe that's just me.
deltadube's Avatar deltadube 04:58 PM 05-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

I have the 3313 and the Odyssey mic setup is useless, just like it was useless on my 3312 (before it died). I honestly can't believe people actually would buy a receiver based on the Odyssey setup, but maybe that's just me.

i have the 3313.. not to happy with the power output... which is more important.. lucky its got the pre outs.. looks like the same amp in the x 4000.. so you will need to add powah!!

cheers
mjpearce023's Avatar mjpearce023 05:14 PM 05-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

I have the 3313 and the Odyssey mic setup is useless, just like it was useless on my 3312 (before it died). I honestly can't believe people actually would buy a receiver based on the Odyssey setup, but maybe that's just me.

People are always going to look for improvements in sound quality and there is not much going from one receiver to the next other than room correction. Audyssey MultEQ XT on my 3311 has worked great for me. I did read the audyssey thread first so I set it up properly. I have no reason to upgrade to the x4000 other than XT32. If I don't get a noticeable improvement from xt32 then I will probably return it but from all the reviews I've read it seems to be a nice upgrade. I could waste money buying amps even though my 3311 has plenty of power or I can go for something that might actually get me an improvement, better room correction.
beaveav's Avatar beaveav 05:43 PM 05-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

I have the 3313 and the Odyssey mic setup is useless, just like it was useless on my 3312 (before it died). I honestly can't believe people actually would buy a receiver based on the Odyssey setup, but maybe that's just me.

Reading the Odyssey did nothing for the sound quality of my system, either. But my darn high school English teacher insisted on it. wink.gif
deltadube's Avatar deltadube 09:02 PM 05-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjpearce023 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG View Post

I have the 3313 and the Odyssey mic setup is useless, just like it was useless on my 3312 (before it died). I honestly can't believe people actually would buy a receiver based on the Odyssey setup, but maybe that's just me.

People are always going to look for improvements in sound quality and there is not much going from one receiver to the next other than room correction. Audyssey MultEQ XT on my 3311 has worked great for me. I did read the audyssey thread first so I set it up properly. I have no reason to upgrade to the x4000 other than XT32. If I don't get a noticeable improvement from xt32 then I will probably return it but from all the reviews I've read it seems to be a nice upgrade. I could waste money buying amps even though my 3311 has plenty of power or I can go for something that might actually get me an improvement, better room correction.

you will not believe the sound quality improvements you get with external amp or amps.. movies or stereo.. sky is the limit.. room treatments a plenty im my room i like my blues loud sometimes biggrin.gif

its the head room and the extra power for the dynamics and transients... the denon 33xx just dont cut it.. its is very weak amp.. and runs very hot... hot reciever ive ever seen..

cheers
mjpearce023's Avatar mjpearce023 09:56 PM 05-08-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

you will not believe the sound quality improvements you get with external amp or amps.. movies or stereo.. sky is the limit.. room treatments a plenty im my room i like my blues loud sometimes biggrin.gif

its the head room and the extra power for the dynamics and transients... the denon 33xx just dont cut it.. its is very weak amp.. and runs very hot... hot reciever ive ever seen..

cheers

I've already tried the amp thing. Bought a 2 channel rotel 200 x 2 amp and once level matched there was no difference. I've got studio 20s in a small room with 3 subs so the 3311 has plenty of power for me. Here is a test bench if you would like to take a look. The 33 series denons have plenty of power for most setups so I'm not sure why you would recommend everyone add an amp. Just because you needed one doesn't mean everybody does. In some cases it's just a waste of money. Also my the 3311 doesn't get that hot.
http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-3312ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
WilliamG's Avatar WilliamG 12:04 AM 05-09-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjpearce023 View Post

I've already tried the amp thing. Bought a 2 channel rotel 200 x 2 amp and once level matched there was no difference. I've got studio 20s in a small room with 3 subs so the 3311 has plenty of power for me. Here is a test bench if you would like to take a look. The 33 series denons have plenty of power for most setups so I'm not sure why you would recommend everyone add an amp. Just because you needed one doesn't mean everybody does. In some cases it's just a waste of money. Also my the 3311 doesn't get that hot.
http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-3312ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

I can't speak for amps, but in terms of temperature my 3313 is warm under load, but certainly not boiling hot like all my Onkyos have been.
deltadube's Avatar deltadube 12:32 AM 05-09-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjpearce023 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

you will not believe the sound quality improvements you get with external amp or amps.. movies or stereo.. sky is the limit.. room treatments a plenty im my room i like my blues loud sometimes biggrin.gif

its the head room and the extra power for the dynamics and transients... the denon 33xx just dont cut it.. its is very weak amp.. and runs very hot... hot reciever ive ever seen..

cheers

I've already tried the amp thing. Bought a 2 channel rotel 200 x 2 amp and once level matched there was no difference. I've got studio 20s in a small room with 3 subs so the 3311 has plenty of power for me. Here is a test bench if you would like to take a look. The 33 series denons have plenty of power for most setups so I'm not sure why you would recommend everyone add an amp. Just because you needed one doesn't mean everybody does. In some cases it's just a waste of money. Also my the 3311 doesn't get that hot.
http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-3312ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

maybe the 3311 is a better avr.. my 3313 gets hot not burning hand hot but pretty warm.. never owned a denon before but its way hotter then my old yammie..

im running studio 100s full range in stereo.. my sub cant keep up.. the sub i use for movies for the .1 track..

i had a huge sq improvement adding an xpa 3..

cheers..
mjpearce023's Avatar mjpearce023 04:55 PM 05-09-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

maybe the 3311 is a better avr.. my 3313 gets hot not burning hand hot but pretty warm.. never owned a denon before but its way hotter then my old yammie..

im running studio 100s full range in stereo.. my sub cant keep up.. the sub i use for movies for the .1 track..

i had a huge sq improvement adding an xpa 3..

cheers..

I don’t think the 3311 is any better than the 3313. You just have different power requirements for your system. The studio 100s require more power than the 20s and they have some pretty big impedance dips (down to 2.5 ohms) so they are harder for a receiver to drive. Running them full range makes it even more difficult. I wouldn’t expect many mid-range receivers to be up to that task. The XPA has no problem handling that so I can see why you had an improvement when you added it. Since I’m using an 80hz crossover for music and movies there would be no need for me to have an XPA because the power would be wasted. If I had studio 100s I would consider moving up to the Denon 4520 or adding an amp.
deltadube's Avatar deltadube 05:18 PM 05-09-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjpearce023 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

maybe the 3311 is a better avr.. my 3313 gets hot not burning hand hot but pretty warm.. never owned a denon before but its way hotter then my old yammie..

im running studio 100s full range in stereo.. my sub cant keep up.. the sub i use for movies for the .1 track..

i had a huge sq improvement adding an xpa 3..

cheers..

I don’t think the 3311 is any better than the 3313. You just have different power requirements for your system. The studio 100s require more power than the 20s and they have some pretty big impedance dips (down to 2.5 ohms) so they are harder for a receiver to drive. Running them full range makes it even more difficult. I wouldn’t expect many mid-range receivers to be up to that task. The XPA has no problem handling that so I can see why you had an improvement when you added it. Since I’m using an 80hz crossover for music and movies there would be no need for me to have an XPA because the power would be wasted. If I had studio 100s I would consider moving up to the Denon 4520 or adding an amp.

sounds good.. im looking to improve my amp power to mono blocks.. xpa 1 or 1ls and go fully balanced.. for stereo..

cheers..
mjpearce023's Avatar mjpearce023 08:41 PM 05-09-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltadube View Post

sounds good.. im looking to improve my amp power to mono blocks.. xpa 1 or 1ls and go fully balanced.. for stereo..

cheers..

That seems a bit excessive but I have 3 subs in a 11' by 13' room so who am I to talk about excessive.

What sub are you using? If it can't keep up with the 100s I would think that should be the next upgrade.
Tags: Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver
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