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post #1 of 21 Old 05-15-2013, 01:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Greetings Folks,

I'm considering purchasing a power amp for my HT setup. I guess I'm sort of hoping to get a resounding yes or no via this thread, because I've got an audiophile-quality taste, but the wallet doesnt really agree with me :-)

Right now I've got a Pioneer VSX-1120 K receiver, with a pair of Polk M60's as mains, a CS2 center, and a pair of TSi200's in the rear. I've read through numerous threads, throughout the interwebs, with opinions on either side of purchasing a power amp. My main 2 reasons for wanting one are 1). I want to get the best possible sound out my speakers as possible, and 2) Many of the movies we watch (Blu Ray) I tend to have to turn the receive way up for it to be nice and loud. We don't watch movies at asinine levels, but I mean like to get a real good listening experience.

The receiver has a minimum listening level of -80 (anything lower than that displays "---"). The highest I can turn it up is -12 (these are both negative numbers, so negative 12 is the highest it will go, after that, it displays MAX). Back to what I was saying, we generally have to turn the receiver up to about -20 to -18 to get good volume, and that seems like a bit much. This receiver has a feature called MCACC which automatically tunes the speakers, so their levels and EQ are all set via that. I can go in a manually change stuff afterwards, and I found that the MCACC sets the speaker levels low, like -3 to -4 db. I upped them a few db but I still have to turn the receiver way up, almost to max.

Another aspect I’ve come across the last few days is that a lot of folks claim that the pre-amps on AVR’s are garbage, and they are prone to distortion. So a few questions I have at this point are:

1. Is this true? Are the pre-outs a bad idea to use?
2. Would a power amp connect to my system via the pre-out, or am I completely wrong?
3. When using a power amp along with an AVR, do the speakers receive power from both, or from just the power amp?
4. For a pair of M60’s, how many watts / channel would be recommended to push them? They can handle 210 or 220, cant remember exactly, so I was thinking a 2 channel amp, 200 w/channel at 8ohms would be perfect.

Any and all information would be greatly appreciated! Thank you for reading,

Shaun
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post #2 of 21 Old 05-15-2013, 02:55 AM
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Don't know anything about your receiver and its preamp capabilities but consider an Outlaw 7500 which is a great 5 x 200 wpc option ($1600) or an Emotiva XPA-2 ($800) for 2 channel.

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Ayre K-5xeMP, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, DBP 2010, Samsung BD-C7900, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650. Sitting still CCM616, Kef...
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post #3 of 21 Old 05-15-2013, 03:06 AM
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Or upgrade your receiver, just saw Denon AVR 3313Ci for $800 at Crutchfield. What is the rating on your receiver?

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Ayre K-5xeMP, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, DBP 2010, Samsung BD-C7900, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650. Sitting still CCM616, Kef...
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post #4 of 21 Old 05-15-2013, 03:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

Or upgrade your receiver, just saw Denon AVR 3313Ci for $800 at Crutchfield. What is the rating on your receiver?

Thanks for the replies. Those amps are a bit out of my range, at least for now. I was hoping to find something for no more than 400.00. Maybe I'm dreaming? My receiver is rated at 110 watts / channel. I'm guessing that number could be a bit overexaggerated by Pioneer though.
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post #5 of 21 Old 05-15-2013, 04:10 AM
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Your receiver may say 110, but it won't put that out in all channels. At $400, Emotiva offers the UPA Amps, but they won't provide a lot more power that your receiver. You can always try it and return as EMO offers 30 days
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post #6 of 21 Old 05-15-2013, 04:20 AM
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If you can put up with the hissing noise from the speaker (especially obvious if you have those high efficient speakers such as horn loaded klipsch), then go ahead and get Emotiva.

Else look at others and since power amps dont get obsolete at all apart from the design, i'll advise you to save up so you can drop it at one of those better one such as Outlaw or ATI, considering especially the 2000/3000 series which is fully balanced from input to output. Only commercial amps use such design as the benefit of noise rejection hence cleaner SNR can be had.

Then once you got the power amps, the next step is your speakers since they dont get obsolete in sound as well apart from the design. Dont spend too much on the processor as it gets obsolete fast and dont buy into those modular design where the manufacturers promised future proof the device by simply swapping the boards. It sounds good and perhaps work decently but any future proof is at the mercy of the manufacturers and their asking price. Look for those with XLR output so you can take advantage of the fully balanced power amp feature.

Hope this helps.
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post #7 of 21 Old 05-15-2013, 04:40 AM
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I completely disagree with the hissing comment about Emotiva. In my experience most signal noise is a result of cabling and pre-amps not the amp itself.

I run Emotiva and use speakers that are true 96db/1w efficient(not klipsch marketing lies) and don't have any hissing problems. Emotiva amps are as quiet as your setup will allow, not a limitation of the amp.

Having said all that, I would recommend for the OP, if spl and sound quality are what you are after, I would recommend you use that money to upgrade your speakers. With a $400 investment in an amp you will have a disproportionate amount spent on your amp/speakers IMO.

Your best option would be sell your Polks and buy/build something higher end on the speakers. You would see a much larger improvement in that arena. It is far too common that the most important component for sound gets neglected, the speakers.

Even if you doubled your available power that only gets you another 3db, which is not much. IOW 96db efficiency speakers are twice as loud with same power as 90db speakers(your polks). High efficiency speakers are capable of reference spl levels at the listening position with minimal distortion on receiver power.

Look at:

Pi speakers
Diy sound group
Econowave


Good Luck.
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post #8 of 21 Old 05-15-2013, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

I completely disagree with the hissing comment about Emotiva. In my experience most signal noise is a result of cabling and pre-amps not the amp itself.

I run Emotiva and use speakers that are true 96db/1w efficient(not klipsch marketing lies) and don't have any hissing problems. Emotiva amps are as quiet as your setup will allow, not a limitation of the amp.

Having said all that, I would recommend for the OP, if spl and sound quality are what you are after, I would recommend you use that money to upgrade your speakers. With a $400 investment in an amp you will have a disproportionate amount spent on your amp/speakers IMO.

Your best option would be sell your Polks and buy/build something higher end on the speakers. You would see a much larger improvement in that arena. It is far too common that the most important component for sound gets neglected, the speakers.

Even if you doubled your available power that only gets you another 3db, which is not much. IOW 96db efficiency speakers are twice as loud with same power as 90db speakers(your polks). High efficiency speakers are capable of reference spl levels at the listening position with minimal distortion on receiver power.

Look at:

Pi speakers
Diy sound group
Econowave


Good Luck.

May i know which Emotiva and preamp you're using and what cables as well as speakers you paired with them? Not picking anything here but lets see why yours is dead quiet whereas my group of emotiva owners all has hissing issue so we're curious why yours is dead quiet.
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post #9 of 21 Old 05-15-2013, 05:32 AM
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Dont troll this dudes post.

Start your own post in the appropriate forum asking why "your group of Emotia owners" have hiss in their speakers. You obviously have some questions that need answering, but this is not the appropriate place.

I'm sure you'll get your answers, PM me the link to the post and I'll contribute where I can.

Cheers,

Nicholas
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post #10 of 21 Old 05-15-2013, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Dont troll this dudes post.

Start your own post in the appropriate forum asking why "your group of Emotia owners" have hiss in their speakers. You obviously have some questions that need answering, but this is not the appropriate place.

I'm sure you'll get your answers, PM me the link to the post and I'll contribute where I can.

Cheers,

Nicholas

Here you go..

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1472823/audible-hissing-from-the-speakers-is-it-a-norm
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post #11 of 21 Old 05-15-2013, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hifi4Hobby View Post

May i know which Emotiva and preamp you're using and what cables as well as speakers you paired with them? Not picking anything here but lets see why yours is dead quiet whereas my group of emotiva owners all has hissing issue so we're curious why yours is dead quiet.

Maybe we could better understand if you told us what Emotiva equipment you have used.

I have used my XPA5 with several sets of Klipsch and other brands. No hissing.

Could you also recommend a processor or AVR with fully balanced out and not simply an XLR connector.
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post #12 of 21 Old 05-15-2013, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sketterman1981 View Post

Greetings Folks,

I'm considering purchasing a power amp for my HT setup. I guess I'm sort of hoping to get a resounding yes or no via this thread, because I've got an audiophile-quality taste, but the wallet doesnt really agree with me :-)

Right now I've got a Pioneer VSX-1120 K receiver, with a pair of Polk M60's as mains, a CS2 center, and a pair of TSi200's in the rear. I've read through numerous threads, throughout the interwebs, with opinions on either side of purchasing a power amp. My main 2 reasons for wanting one are 1). I want to get the best possible sound out my speakers as possible, and 2) Many of the movies we watch (Blu Ray) I tend to have to turn the receive way up for it to be nice and loud. We don't watch movies at asinine levels, but I mean like to get a real good listening experience.

The receiver has a minimum listening level of -80 (anything lower than that displays "---"). The highest I can turn it up is -12 (these are both negative numbers, so negative 12 is the highest it will go, after that, it displays MAX). Back to what I was saying, we generally have to turn the receiver up to about -20 to -18 to get good volume, and that seems like a bit much. This receiver has a feature called MCACC which automatically tunes the speakers, so their levels and EQ are all set via that. I can go in a manually change stuff afterwards, and I found that the MCACC sets the speaker levels low, like -3 to -4 db. I upped them a few db but I still have to turn the receiver way up, almost to max.

Another aspect I’ve come across the last few days is that a lot of folks claim that the pre-amps on AVR’s are garbage, and they are prone to distortion. So a few questions I have at this point are:

1. Is this true?

AVR power amps and preamps aren't garbage, but they are what they are which varies somewhat. All amps are prone to distortion if you try to push them too hard. But volume control settings aren't direct or reliable measures of power amplifier power. Generally AVR's don't have peak power indicators or clipping indicators, and that is what is required to get a reliable indication of how much AVR capability that you are using.
Quote:
Are the pre-outs a bad idea to use?

No.
Quote:
2. Would a power amp connect to my system via the pre-out, or am I completely wrong?


The pre outs are there exactly for the purpose of connecting outboard power amps. If you want a sound quality benefit from connecting an external power amp you first need to know that the AVR's internal power amplifier is inadequate for your needs, which is to say it is clipping in typical use.

Secondly, the power amp you attach has to be significantly more powerful than the one in the AVR that you are bypassing. A few more watts won't make an audible difference - you need from 3 to 10 times more power to obtain a satisfying difference.
Quote:
3. When using a power amp along with an AVR, do the speakers receive power from both, or from just the power amp?

The speakers that are attached to the speaker terminals of an outboard power amp receive power from just the power amp.

Quote:
4. For a pair of M60’s, how many watts / channel would be recommended to push them? They can handle 210 or 220, cant remember exactly, so I was thinking a 2 channel amp, 200 w/channel at 8ohms would be perfect.

http://www.polkaudio.com/products/monitor50

says

"Recommended Amplifier Power 20 - 150 watts per channel"

Frankly, these speakers can probably be driven to or close to their safe limits by many AVRs.

Your best option for extending the dynamic range of your system would probably be to get a good subwoofer. The subwoofer will take a significant load off of both your AVR and your speakers.

For example, my personal system has a pair of Infinity Primus P363s, an older 12" Paradigm subwoofer and a low end RX- V371 Yamaha 5.1 channel AVR. It gets very loud with no audible distortion that I can hear. The subwoofer makes a huge difference in dynamics and cleanliness.

I would recommend looking at a subwoofer with a 12" driver in the $500 or more price category. Hsu, SVS, Polk, Klipsch, Rhythmic, etc. are good brands.
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post #13 of 21 Old 05-15-2013, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post

Maybe we could better understand if you told us what Emotiva equipment you have used.

I have used my XPA5 with several sets of Klipsch and other brands. No hissing.

Could you also recommend a processor or AVR with fully balanced out and not simply an XLR connector.

My friend had XPA-5 before and there was an audible hiss which subsequently he switched to an ATI 3005..no hiss..so am happy with it. The XPA5 seems to be in working condition so maybe his luck perhaps that Emotiva isnt for his system. For i cannot tolerate hissing hence i never pull a trigger on Emotiva. There seems to be reported cases of hissing on the Emotiva as well.

What processor/preamp are you using?

For processor/avr with real full balanced output not many can claim to have it and yet with the latest decoding abilities. I think the Denon AVP is one of them as well as Anthem D2v. Do you have any other brands that you have in mind which you can share with us?
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post #14 of 21 Old 05-15-2013, 08:02 AM
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The best advise given so far are new speakers as that will get you the most performance. $400 don't get you much for any upgrade but for $600 you can get 3 SEOS speakers which would take much less amp power than your polks so your AVR will not have to go as high for the same loudness.
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post #15 of 21 Old 05-15-2013, 08:25 AM
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Your current practice of increasing channel levels individually is actually counter productive.

To comply with Dolby certification rules for channel tracking, receivers and preamps must decrease the overall available level by 1 dB for every dB that any channel is increased above 0. Thus if you run your center speaker at +4, the upper limit for the master volume control is reduced by a corresponding amount. In this case to -4. If this were not done, as you turn up the volume, an individual channel would reach its maximum level before some of the other channels and continuing to advance the master volume would alter the channel balance for the program material.

Adding a quality multi-channel amplifier to a receiver like yours is often done to insure that the unfettered dynamic range of the program is available. I'd suggest looking at a 3 channel amp for LCR and let your receiver run the remaining channels.

Jeff
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post #16 of 21 Old 05-15-2013, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sketterman1981 View Post

Thanks for the replies. Those amps are a bit out of my range, at least for now. I was hoping to find something for no more than 400.00. Maybe I'm dreaming? My receiver is rated at 110 watts / channel. I'm guessing that number could be a bit overexaggerated by Pioneer though.

Keep saving your money until you can afford an amp of at least 200W per channel or greater (i.e., 3dB more power than what you now have). $400.00 will not even get you a used multichannel amp in that power range, not one you would want to take a chance on that might not have issues anyway.

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post #17 of 21 Old 05-15-2013, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hifi4Hobby View Post

My friend had XPA-5 before and there was an audible hiss which subsequently he switched to an ATI 3005..no hiss..so am happy with it. The XPA5 seems to be in working condition so maybe his luck perhaps that Emotiva isnt for his system. For i cannot tolerate hissing hence i never pull a trigger on Emotiva. There seems to be reported cases of hissing on the Emotiva as well.

What processor/preamp are you using?

For processor/avr with real full balanced output not many can claim to have it and yet with the latest decoding abilities. I think the Denon AVP is one of them as well as Anthem D2v. Do you have any other brands that you have in mind which you can share with us?

I have had a few amps and do not recall any of them hissing. IMO hum and not hissing is usually associated with amps. I would think that another component would hiss.

I have used the UMC-1 and numerous AVR's as processors. Some AVR's were Denon 4310 and 4311, Yamaha A-3000, Sony 5700ES, Pioneer SC-1522.

In the past I used Rotel, Lexicon, Anthem and probably other processors but not with the XPA.

I do not have any fully balanced ideas because I have not found any evidence of them producing improved SQ.
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post #18 of 21 Old 05-15-2013, 11:41 AM
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Putting a $700 amp on $100 speakers is kinda like putting the horse before the cart, IMO.

But hey, different strokes for different folks. wink.gif
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post #19 of 21 Old 05-15-2013, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Putting a $700 amp on $100 speakers is kinda like putting the horse before the cart, IMO.

But hey, different strokes for different folks. wink.gif


Nicks, thank you for the multiple replies, lots of good info. I checked out those 3 speakers options you mentioned a few posts back, but again, they are just out of my range. Someday, though! I completely see what you mean about putting a nice amp on crummy speakers, so I think my plan is going to be to just save up for a while, purchase some real good speakers as a starting point. I noticed that all 3 of those options (Pi, DIY sound group, Econowave) all offer speakers kits. I don't think I'd be able to build speakers, but Pi does offer speakers that are already built, and their sensitivity levels are incredible, some over 100. Pricey though, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnyk 
"Recommended Amplifier Power 20 - 150 watts per channel"

Frankly, these speakers can probably be driven to or close to their safe limits by many AVRs.

Your best option for extending the dynamic range of your system would probably be to get a good subwoofer...

Arnyk, splitting hairs, but I've actually got a pair of M60, not M50. Not much difference though, but they can handle up to 200 wpc. Regardless, you provided a lot of great info so thank you! I do have a subwoofer actually, I've got an SVS PC12. Laughable when you compare the quality of the sub vs the rest of the speakers, I know lol. I'm just concerned that with having to crank the AVR up that high on a regular basis that I'm risking blowing out my speakers. They don't distort at all, but I've read that when you have to turn your AVR up that high, it means it could be underpowered, and that causes blowouts.

Thanks to everyone else for their input, lots of good info here I can use. From what I've read here, I think it's best if I just make my next purchase a really good set of speakers. I had planned to upgrade them (at some point) anyway, so it's probably best to do that first. After that, maybe upgrade my AVR and then if needed, start looking into amps. Again, much thanks for all the input folks, it is greatly appreciated.


Shaun
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post #20 of 21 Old 05-15-2013, 02:11 PM
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I would suggest a visit to Parts Express forum and take a good look at some of the other DIY options, better speakers would certainly be my first choice and you might find a DIY'er that is close to you and could help with the build process, most DIY'er are extremely helpful as these and other forums demonstrate. As to the external amp i have a crown xls1500 which are on sale right now http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=245-502 and have never had any hissing with my yamaha rx-667 and it and a pro amp might work for you as well. either way do your research and it will pay off in the end.

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post #21 of 21 Old 05-24-2013, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Putting a $700 amp on $100 speakers is kinda like putting the horse before the cart, IMO.

But hey, different strokes for different folks. wink.gif

At least the cart will speed a lot faster than by other animals such as donkey, cow or even dogs..lol..
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