Higher end avr vs lower end avr. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 52 Old 05-18-2013, 06:57 PM - Thread Starter
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So I got a great deal on a denon 2313ci brand new. Currently my friend is looking for a receiver for his new system. So now I have a spare denon 1913 laying around. I offered to sell him my denon 1913 for $150.00 which is really cheap. But past on it cause its not high end. I just shook my head. He said its not gonna make his sub sound as good versus a higher end receiver. This is something a few of the local home theatre stores told him. His head is really stuck on. Making sure he can feel the bass and hear the bass. With your guys opinion. Does it make a difference between using a higher end versus lower end receivers?
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post #2 of 52 Old 05-18-2013, 07:25 PM
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You can't change belief. At least not fast. But the sub outlut is line level; easy stuff for a pre to run. If you go look in the sub forum I think you will find people ehwo are flat or boosted down to well below 20the Hz with the output from pretty normsl receivers. The bass just is not ehere limitations show up. But you can't force a person to peel the scales off his or her eyes (or ears)
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post #3 of 52 Old 05-18-2013, 07:27 PM
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He'll need to upgrade to an XT32 model (eg. X4000 or 4520CI) in order for there to be a quality difference in how the sub gets EQd vs either the 1913 or 2313CI.

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post #4 of 52 Old 05-18-2013, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe801 View Post

He said its not gonna make his sub sound as good versus a higher end receiver.

Ask your friend how is a high end AVR going to change his rooms acoustics?
The room is a huge factor in how a sub sounds...

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post #5 of 52 Old 05-18-2013, 07:56 PM
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When he says hi end does he means Arcam, NAD etc? Dennon is not high end.

Absolutely a high end receiver sounds better. They come with more power and are able to drive low impedance speakers louder with headroom for those dynamic peaks on well recorded uncompressed DTS-ES sound tracks that can swing 25db or power a larger room at reference levels without clipping

At low levels, under clipping with standard speakers like Klipsch, Polk etc, I would agree, you probably won't hear a difference. Therefore, I would focus more on room acoustics, XT32 and aesthetics/WIFE factor etc
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post #6 of 52 Old 05-18-2013, 08:51 PM - Thread Starter
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His room is 12ft x10ft with 9ft ceilings. His front speakers are klipsch f-20, center is Polk audio unsure of model, surrounds klipsch unsure of model, sub is outlaw lfm-1ex. His main focus is all on the sub and the rumble he gets out of it. I'm just trying to get correct info for him. So he avoids spending tons f money.
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post #7 of 52 Old 05-18-2013, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post


Absolutely a high end receiver sounds better. They come with more power and are able to drive low impedance speakers louder with headroom for those dynamic peaks on well recorded uncompressed DTS-ES sound tracks that can swing 25db or power a larger room at reference levels without clipping

While this may be true, running an amplified sub off a line level out, it will make little difference.
The biggest factors will be the room and sub placement...

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post #8 of 52 Old 05-19-2013, 03:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe801 View Post

His room is 12ft x10ft with 9ft ceilings. His front speakers are klipsch f-20, center is Polk audio unsure of model, surrounds klipsch unsure of model, sub is outlaw lfm-1ex. His main focus is all on the sub and the rumble he gets out of it. I'm just trying to get correct info for him. So he avoids spending tons f money.

What's your friend using now? If nothing, loan him the 1913 and let him take it for a test drive. smile.gif

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post #9 of 52 Old 05-19-2013, 04:18 AM - Thread Starter
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He has nothing right now. I told him he can borrow my receiver. He said no. I'm just gonna let him be. And spend whatever amount he wants to spend. I've already spent 4 days talking to him about which sub to get. I've told him everythingmyou guys have said.
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post #10 of 52 Old 05-19-2013, 04:28 AM
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If he's interested in learning more, just point him to the "Subwoofer" forum ....

http://www.avsforum.com/f/113/subwoofers-bass-and-transducers

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post #11 of 52 Old 05-19-2013, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

When he says hi end does he means Arcam, NAD etc? Dennon is not high end.

Absolutely a high end receiver sounds better. They come with more power and are able to drive low impedance speakers louder with headroom for those dynamic peaks on well recorded uncompressed DTS-ES sound tracks that can swing 25db or power a larger room at reference levels without clipping

$2299 Onkyo vs $4000 NAD

http://www.hometheater.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr3010-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 167.8 watts
1% distortion at 189.5 watts

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 122.1 watts
1% distortion at 142.2 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 114.1 watts
1% distortion at 127.2 watts

...Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 218.6 watts and 1 percent distortion at 257.1 watts.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/nad-t-787-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 152.7 watts
1% distortion at 184.5 watts

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 110.3 watts
1% distortion at 149.2 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 98.9 watts
1% distortion at 119.6 watts

...Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 180.1 watts and 1 percent distortion at 207.1 watts.


$900 Denon vs $1599 NAD

http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-2313ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 126.8 watts
1% distortion at 152.1 watts

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 77.7 watts
1% distortion at 90.8 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 74.3 watts
1% distortion at 84.3 watts

...Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 154.4 watts and 1 percent distortion at 192.5 watts.


http://www.hometheater.com/content/nad-t-757-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 75.2 watts
1% distortion at 91.2 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 71.2 watts
1% distortion at 81.6 watts

...two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 94.3 watts and 1 percent distortion at 121.9 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 146.9 watts and 1 percent distortion at 181.0 watts.

Do a search for Pioneer SC-1222 and SC-1522

http://www.hometheater.com/content/pioneer-elite-sc-61-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 127.2 watts
1% distortion at 150.3 watts

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 109.0 watts
1% distortion at 127.7 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 99.4 watts
1% distortion at 110.3 watts

...Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 213.8 watts and 1 percent distortion at 247.5 watts.
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post #12 of 52 Old 05-19-2013, 06:19 AM
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I have been keeping up with HT's bench test on AVR's also and at one time Arcam,NAD ands others did outperform the Onkyo,Pioneer and Denon line but that has not been the case of late at least in the amp department.
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post #13 of 52 Old 05-20-2013, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe801 View Post

He has nothing right now. I told him he can borrow my receiver. He said no. I'm just gonna let him be. And spend whatever amount he wants to spend. I've already spent 4 days talking to him about which sub to get. I've told him everythingmyou guys have said.

Well the problem seems that your telling him not explaining to him, most people tune people out when they do that. But more expensive avr have better room correction which could make a difference, seeing how his center and LR speakers aren't a match something like Anthem Room Correction would help that. Do different avrs make a difference? well maybe that something for each person to try out, IMO they do but others have different opinions and that's fine, I'll have a better grasp on that when I upgrade my avr.
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post #14 of 52 Old 05-20-2013, 05:30 AM
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Ok if you want to go by HomeTheatre.com, here is what they had to say

NAD:

"Overall, the NAD T 787 is the best-sounding A/V receiver I’ve yet heard"

"equally pleasing to that of the McIntosh separates "

ARCAM

"The Arcam AVR600 is one of the best receivers I’ve heard from any brand"

More importantly than just watts, is volt-amps or driving a low impedance load without clipping such as with high end speakers with large phase shifts i.e. Martin Logans / Magnetics that dip into 2 Ohms or less. The Onkyo although a good "mid grade" receiver, there are still large differences compared to high end for specific applications.
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post #15 of 52 Old 05-20-2013, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Ok if you want to go by HomeTheatre.com, here is what they had to say

NAD:

"Overall, the NAD T 787 is the best-sounding A/V receiver I’ve yet heard"

"equally pleasing to that of the McIntosh separates "

ARCAM

"The Arcam AVR600 is one of the best receivers I’ve heard from any brand"

More importantly than just watts, is volt-amps or driving a low impedance load without clipping such as with high end speakers with large phase shifts i.e. Martin Logans / Magnetics that dip into 2 Ohms or less. The Onkyo although a good "mid grade" receiver, there are still large differences compared to high end for specific applications.

Did you miss that part?
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe801 View Post

His room is 12ft x10ft with 9ft ceilings. His front speakers are klipsch f-20, center is Polk audio unsure of model, surrounds klipsch unsure of model, sub is outlaw lfm-1ex. His main focus is all on the sub and the rumble he gets out of it. I'm just trying to get correct info for him. So he avoids spending tons f money.

If you want to go into reviewer's opinions... http://www.whathifi.com/review/nad-t787
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post #16 of 52 Old 05-20-2013, 07:05 AM
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Did you miss that part?

I was responding to you. not him. I already responded appropriately to him whil taking into account his room before you took it off course.
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post #17 of 52 Old 05-20-2013, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Badouri View Post


If you want to go into reviewer's opinions... http://www.whathifi.com/review/nad-t787

Where did I say I wanted to go into reviews opinions?

From your very own link.

"i have a NAD T 757 and it blows away all the receivers that i have had in the past !!!! onkyo , denon , rotel , yamaha , harman kardon ....... !"

Thanks for proving my point
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post #18 of 52 Old 05-20-2013, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Where did I say I wanted to go into reviews opinions?

From your very own link.

"i have a NAD T 757 and it blows away all the receivers that i have had in the past !!!! onkyo , denon , rotel , yamaha , harman kardon ....... !"

Thanks for proving my point

Wow, you really are a fanboy...

"Correct johnjay. We think the NAD is substantially overpriced when you look at the performance/price ratio of other products in the AV market."

I am out of this one so have fun finding positive comments about your pet receiver.
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post #19 of 52 Old 05-20-2013, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Badouri View Post

Wow, you really are a fanboy...

"Correct johnjay. We think the NAD is substantially overpriced when you look at the performance/price ratio of other products in the AV market."

I am out of this one so have fun finding positive comments about your pet receiver.

Fanboy? I didn't even have to search as you're the one who posted hometheatre and NAD links stating rave reviews for hi-end AVRs. Did you miss that part?
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post #20 of 52 Old 05-20-2013, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Ok if you want to go by HomeTheatre.com, here is what they had to say

NAD:

"Overall, the NAD T 787 is the best-sounding A/V receiver I’ve yet heard"

"equally pleasing to that of the McIntosh separates "

ARCAM

"The Arcam AVR600 is one of the best receivers I’ve heard from any brand"

More importantly than just watts, is volt-amps or driving a low impedance load without clipping such as with high end speakers with large phase shifts i.e. Martin Logans / Magnetics that dip into 2 Ohms or less. The Onkyo although a good "mid grade" receiver, there are still large differences compared to high end for specific applications.
Looking at the graphs show that the flagships of Denon,Onkyo and Pioneer all have a higher output before 1% distortion but more importantly have more power output at 4ohms so that would tell me the newer Arcam and Nad fall a little short of their predecessors while wpc and graphs don't tell the whole story they will give you a hint as to how well they will work with hard to drive speakers for people not wanting to purchase external amps.
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post #21 of 52 Old 05-20-2013, 01:27 PM
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So the OP's friend has a pair of $500 Amazon.com speakers with an un-matching Polk CC and he's worried about a "low-end" receiver providing a signal for his sub?

I can just imagine the speaker placement and room issues with the Oulaw sub set running hot and corner-loaded....just a guess.tongue.gif


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post #22 of 52 Old 05-20-2013, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosh70 View Post

So the OP's friend has a pair of $500 Amazon.com speakers with an un-matching Polk CC and he's worried about a "low-end" receiver providing a signal for his sub?

I can just imagine the speaker placement and room issues with the Oulaw sub set running hot and corner-loaded....just a guess.tongue.gif
its very frustrating, trust me. All the speakers he has. Are either bought locally, or hand me down. I told him to sign up. And ask his own questions. But he is afraid to sound dumb. But yes he really is worried.
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post #23 of 52 Old 05-20-2013, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
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its very frustrating, trust me. All the speakers he has. Are either bought locally, or hand me down. I told him to sign up. And ask his own questions. But he is afraid to sound dumb. But yes he really is worried.

Find a new friend. There are so many to meet! smile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gifcool.giftongue.gifwink.gif

Cheers, Feri


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post #24 of 52 Old 05-22-2013, 07:26 AM
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Looking at the graphs show that the flagships of Denon,Onkyo and Pioneer all have a higher output before 1% distortion but more importantly have more power output at 4ohms so that would tell me the newer Arcam and Nad fall a little short of their predecessors while wpc and graphs don't tell the whole story they will give you a hint as to how well they will work with hard to drive speakers for people not wanting to purchase external amps.

I agree, only an unsuspecting audiophile would believe that Nad and Arcam are higher end and unrivalled.
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post #25 of 52 Old 05-22-2013, 07:42 AM
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I agree, only an unsuspecting audiophile would believe that Nad and Arcam are higher end and unrivalled.

I would say products without reliability no matter how high end, is a bad end for everyone of us.
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post #26 of 52 Old 05-22-2013, 05:23 PM
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I would say products without reliability no matter how high end, is a bad end for everyone of us.

True, I wonder if Onkyo still has overheating issues
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post #27 of 52 Old 05-22-2013, 05:41 PM
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Hey now, Onkyo makes wonderful hand warmers! XD Just kidding. At the same time, it's true that Onkyo has overheating issues and need a ridiculous amount of ventilation. Even then, I've worked with their flagship models and they have heated small rooms!
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post #28 of 52 Old 05-22-2013, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by CMoen View Post

I agree, only an unsuspecting audiophile would believe that Nad and Arcam are higher end and unrivalled.

So you completely discredit hometheatre and other reviewers that claim they are the best receivers they ever heard? I agree it could be marketing hype, but I don't claim they are wrong either. Do you have a source to disprove that the ArcamAVR600 and NAD T787 sound no different than mid grade receivers? Besides, I recall these high end AVRs not burning up and keeping cool to the touch. I guess you're also paying for better quality and engineering in the higher end as well.
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post #29 of 52 Old 05-22-2013, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Fanboy? I didn't even have to search as you're the one who posted hometheatre and NAD links stating rave reviews for hi-end AVRs. Did you miss that part?

An anonymous user comment is a rave review? I think the What Hi-Fi? review is an honest one.
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post #30 of 52 Old 05-23-2013, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

I guess you're also paying for better quality and engineering in the higher end as well.
Quote:
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A refurb is less likely to pop after getting personal attention from a test bench with firmware updates and new parts. Infact, my M15HD and M56 looked untouched and was still in plastic. I don't think it's uncommon for refurbs to be items that simply had a scratch from the manufacturer or was a return that was opened but never used.

What is your point, buyer beware? or just anti NAD/SS? I could buy an Arcam AVR600, oh but wait, that also comes with a laundry list of issues.
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Denon Avr 2313ci Receiver , Denon Avr 1913 Receiver , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver
Gear in this thread - 2313ci by PriceGrabber.com

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