Has anyone used the biamp option on the denon 2313ci. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 11 Old 05-19-2013, 09:58 PM - Thread Starter
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So I have googled on biamping using the surround back. And it seem that it does nothing at all. And there are people that say it does make a difference. I'm looking to get some more power to my Polk audio monitor 75t. Has anyone done the biamping notice any difference in sound and bass? I have yet to hookup my system to try. Currently in the process of doing a remodel for a dedicated theatre room.
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post #2 of 11 Old 05-20-2013, 02:53 AM
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In your case, (and most other cases), biamping will not improve performance. There have to be multiple changes to your system to make a difference with biamping. For one thing, your receiver has only a single power transformer. All of the amplifier channels from that unit feed off of the same transformer. You are just robbing from one to feed another.
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post #3 of 11 Old 06-02-2013, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by joe801 View Post

So I have googled on biamping using the surround back. And it seem that it does nothing at all. And there are people that say it does make a difference. I'm looking to get some more power to my Polk audio monitor 75t. Has anyone done the biamping notice any difference in sound and bass? I have yet to hookup my system to try. Currently in the process of doing a remodel for a dedicated theatre room.

I have bi-amped my Denon 2313ci with my power hungry Polk Audio RTi A7's. don't know what the last poster is saying but I defiantly noticed a difference. I would say that if your speakers don't require a lot of power you probably won't notice a difference. The dual woofers on my PA's are certainly getting more power. Our Denon is rated at 105W per channel so I'm sure you will notice a difference as well.

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post #4 of 11 Old 06-03-2013, 12:14 AM
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If biamping doubled power it would gain you 3 dB of clean output. About "one notch" louder. But the tweeter on most speakers covers a frequency range that contains 20 to 25 percent of the total signal power. So the amp connected to the tweeter never gets over a quarter power even if you are loud enough to drive the woofer(s) amp to fill rated power. Maybe a decibel louder. Most of the time the amps are putting out far less than rated power.

If your speakers in your room can hit reference level max output (105 dB) with 100 watts, dialog, normally in the 80-85 dB range for typical movies at reference, needs one watt or less.
The speaker cannot tell the difference between one watt from a 200 watt amp or one watt from a 10 watt amp. The unused available power has no way to affect the sound.

I biamped my maggies without ill effect but i am certain in hindsight it made no difference especially at my below-reference listening levels.
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post #5 of 11 Old 06-09-2013, 07:56 AM
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So if it makes sooo little difference to bi amp why do I get such improved bass by doing it?

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post #6 of 11 Old 06-09-2013, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Bradical View Post

So if it makes sooo little difference to bi amp why do I get such improved bass by doing it?

The only real change is the load on each of the amps. The impedance reaction between amp and drivers (speakers) has changed. Every different combo of speakers and amps will react differently with biamping. Its always worth a try to see if it improves the overall SQ, in your case it has, some report no real change.

I would like to add that if you do hear big improvements, I would say its time to upgrade to a much better amp !!! Its time for you to start looking at 200+ watt per channel poweramps !! I wouldn't just say that to anybody, but since you have ears that listen and not just hear, the price you pay for the added enjoyment is money well spent.
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post #7 of 11 Old 06-09-2013, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Bradical View Post

So if it makes sooo little difference to bi amp why do I get such improved bass by doing it?

ummm, if you're human, and I assume you are, then all the reasons that they conduct double blind testing to ffigure out if aspirin makes headaches go away apply to you, as a human, in your testing. And to me. See if you can measure a difference in bass response You are adding effectively zero to power to the woofer. If you actually drive the amp to or past the point where it creates audible distortion, you MIGHT be adding 25 percent more power by biamping. One decibel. Less likely, IMHO, to be audible when we get to very high SPL than at more moderate levels . . . .

what are you biamping with? internal receiver amps will be gain matched, but if you are using different amps for tweeters and woofers, they very well may be unmatched so that it's like you turned up the amp going to the woofers.
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post #8 of 11 Old 06-09-2013, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by joehonest View Post

The only real change is the load on each of the amps. The impedance reaction between amp and drivers (speakers) has changed. Every different combo of speakers and amps will react differently with biamping. Its always worth a try to see if it improves the overall SQ, in your case it has, some report no real change.

I would like to add that if you do hear big improvements, I would say its time to upgrade to a much better amp !!! Its time for you to start looking at 200+ watt per channel poweramps !! I wouldn't just say that to anybody, but since you have ears that listen and not just hear, the price you pay for the added enjoyment is money well spent.

I agree, I know now that I bought too much speaker for this AVR. Would upgrade in a heartbeat but the wife will kill me as we just spent 10k upgrading the HT! I'll sneak in an upgrade next year. But that being said I am very happy with the sound I am getting with it bi ampd so why bother? I'd upgrade if I ever have the desire to go 7.1 or higher.

But as far as this thread is concerned all the fancy electrical science quotes and assumptions of my humanity, It made a big difference with my particular setup.

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post #9 of 11 Old 07-05-2013, 09:20 AM
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I have to agree with Bradical. I use my Denon 2313ci with a pair of Kliptsh RB-81 mains bi-amped, and can hear a significant difference. I get a more profound bass and cleaner, slightly brighter highs -- no change in volume, just a better overall sound. This is most noticed when playing stereo tracks only, I don't really hear as much difference with 5.1 audio, unless it's something like opera with the orchestra on the L/R channels and the singers in the center, in which case the orchestra has a better "presence."

I would definately recommend giving bi-amping a try and see if you like it better.

PB
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post #10 of 11 Old 07-05-2013, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by pbbb View Post

I use my Denon 2313ci with a pair of Kliptsh RB-81 mains bi-amped, and can hear a significant difference. I get a more profound bass and cleaner, slightly brighter highs -- no change in volume, just a better overall sound.

How do you suppose you were able to completely change the sound you get from a receiver and speaker’s without really changing anything other than the amount of available power you are able to provide to some speaker’s?
Maybe if you had changed any of the following I would expect a change.
The amp it’s self
The speaker’s
The passive crossovers in the speaker’s.

The speaker positions
Your position (which will have happened anyway)
Tone settings on the amp (same as changing the amp itself)
Or your blood alcohol level (this one’s a joke if you cannot tell, but could still change the sound you potently hear)

I am not saying I don’t believe YOU believe you can hear a change all I am saying is I don’t believe its possible there can be a change.
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post #11 of 11 Old 07-10-2013, 06:17 AM
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Update: so we decided to go ahead with our zone 2 option and setup our outdoor patio speakers. The decision became wether to disconnect the bi-amp and assign those channels to zone 2 or buy an amplifier and use the pre outs for zone 2.
Wife convinced me to disconnect the bi-amp to save the money on an amp.
We were amp shopping within a few days of the change. The wife's hearing isn't near what mine is (I'm the blind one) and she even noticed that the sound quality diminished. It seemed to pick up a hollow or distance to it.
I totally agree with the above poster that there was minimal to no difference in 5.1 but in stereo playback with dedicated music tracks or netflix concerts there was a significant difference. The highs were higher and crisper and the lows were lower and defiantly in the room and not distant. The biggest difference was at lower to moderate volume levels. When we cranked it single amped it was less noticeable.
So if you only enjoy your music at higher volume levels then go ahead and skip the bi-amp with the Denon 2313ci. Otherwise if you own a powerful set of speakers such as my 300 watt PA's and 7.1 is not important to you then defiantly bi-amp this Denon.

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