The Perfect Receiver ... Marantz SR7005, Yamaha RX-A2020 ... or is Denon 4311ci the best there is? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 59 Old 05-25-2013, 07:15 AM
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Thanks, Ford and Pianist, for answering my question (although it was about as dumb of a question as you can get considering the AVR doesn't have pre-outs)! I googled it and saw some "surround back" pre-out and an audio-out....

..but anyway, don't mean to derail your search.

I was surprised that you didn't like the Marantz, but I still have entry level stuff. At my price range I'm very happy with my Marantz AVR's (I have two of them). Good luck in finding that kit which is "the best there is" (for you). smile.gif
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post #32 of 59 Old 05-25-2013, 07:19 AM
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Unfortunately you need that 4311 mic. What a pain, now you have to wait for the replacement. Well at least you can listen to that 3900. Impressive model from Yamaha.
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post #33 of 59 Old 05-25-2013, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post

thanks,
my only gripe is that I have this 4311 at home right now but it came without the Audyssey mic. That's why they offered to replace with a brand new 4311 at same price as open box $1279.

I do have Audyssey mic from Marantz SR7005 but I hear that you MUST use the mic that came with the receiver. How accurate is that??? Can't I at least try? :-)

I am thinking the 7005 microphone may not work, because they are different versions of Audyssey. It wouldn't hurt to try.
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post #34 of 59 Old 05-25-2013, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post

thanks,
my only gripe is that I have this 4311 at home right now but it came without the Audyssey mic. That's why they offered to replace with a brand new 4311 at same price as open box $1279.

I do have Audyssey mic from Marantz SR7005 but I hear that you MUST use the mic that came with the receiver. How accurate is that??? Can't I at least try? :-)

Pianist-Most Denon/Marantz mikes are common, regardless of Audyssey level-if your's is"DM-A409, or even a later number, you are "good to go"
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post #35 of 59 Old 05-25-2013, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by phantom52 View Post

Unfortunately you need that 4311 mic. What a pain, now you have to wait for the replacement. Well at least you can listen to that 3900. Impressive model from Yamaha.

Traveling for next two weeks so asked them not to ship anything out till June smile.gif
I still enjoy Marantz but it just doesn't compare to quality theater detail and bass i heard from Yamaha RX-A2020. It does though sound better than Yamaha for regular TV.
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Originally Posted by jrhooper1963 View Post

I am thinking the 7005 microphone may not work, because they are different versions of Audyssey. It wouldn't hurt to try.

I'd try but would i be giving Denon a fair chance?
At $650 extra compared to Yamaha RX-V3900 that denon 4311 has to blow me away for me to keep it.

We'll see. smile.gif

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post #36 of 59 Old 05-25-2013, 07:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fordf250 View Post


Pianist-Most Denon/Marantz mikes are common, regardless of Audyssey level-if your's is"DM-A409, or even a later number, you are "good to go"

how do I check that??

On the box it says .... ACM1H

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post #37 of 59 Old 05-25-2013, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post

how do I check that??

On the box it says .... ACM1H
[/S
THAT'S THE LATEST MODEL-IT WILL WORK JUST FINE!!!!!!!!
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post #38 of 59 Old 05-25-2013, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fordf250 View Post

[/S
THAT'S THE LATEST MODEL-IT WILL WORK JUST FINE!!!!!!!!

You're 100% sure?

This marantz mic is for audyssey multieq xt. Not xt32 like Denon
So just want to make sure.




On a different subject .... In Bass Settings.
I have LPF for LFE at 100Hz
SW mode at. LFE+Main.

I never understood the. SW mode .... Lfe plus main or should it just be LFE.

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post #39 of 59 Old 05-25-2013, 08:58 AM
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The microphones are revised over model years not versions of Audyssey. And pretty the same for Denon, Marantz and Onkyo if they are the same year models... at times they aren't updated with the new models. But in this case you need a DM-A409 (unless they changed part numbers just for fun).

 

LFE typically is set to 125Hz so the sub doesn't discard any bass and the +Main means you would be getting bass (below the crossover for speakers set to small) twice (double). From the sub and the Fronts... typically you don't want this.


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post #40 of 59 Old 05-25-2013, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fordf250 View Post

[/S
THAT'S THE LATEST MODEL-IT WILL WORK JUST FINE!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

The microphones are revised over model years not versions of Audyssey. And pretty the same for Denon, Marantz and Onkyo if they are the same year models... at times they aren't updated with the new models. But in this case you need a DM-A409.


LFE typically is set to 125Hz so the sub doesn't discard any bass and the +Main means you would be getting bass (below the crossover for speakers set to small) twice (double). From the sub and the Fronts... typically you don't want this.


so one says it will work another one says it won't :-)

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post #41 of 59 Old 05-25-2013, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

LFE typically is set to 125Hz so the sub doesn't discard any bass and the +Main means you would be getting bass (below the crossover for speakers set to small) twice (double). From the sub and the Fronts... typically you don't want this.
Yes, set the LPF as high as possible. Otherwise, frequencies above the filter in the LFE channel will simply be discarded.

The +Main setting only comes into play when speakers are set to Large, not Small. +Main sends frequencies below the crossover to both the speakers set as Large and the sub. When speakers are set to Small, frequencies below the crossover are only sent to the sub. That's the whole point of the Small setting.
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post #42 of 59 Old 05-25-2013, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, set the LPF as high as possible. Otherwise, frequencies above the filter in the LFE channel will simply be discarded.

The +Main setting only comes into play when speakers are set to Large, not Small. +Main sends frequencies below the crossover to both the speakers set as Large and the sub. When speakers are set to Small, frequencies below the crossover are only sent to the sub. That's the whole point of the Small setting.

So I already had my speakers set as Small and crossed at 100.

So by changing this Bass setting from 100Hz to 120Hz and switching from SW mode at. LFE+Main. to just LFE won't make a noticeable difference for me to start demoing sound after this minor change?

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post #43 of 59 Old 05-25-2013, 10:23 AM
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LPF for LFE is not the same as the bass management crossover.

The low pass filter controls which frequencies in the actual LFE channel get sent to the sub. LFE may have content up to 120Hz. If you set the filter at 100Hz, then content between 100 and 120 is thrown away. It is not redirected to the main channels. That's why LPF for LFE should be set no lower than 120Hz.

The bass management crossover controls what happens with low frequencies in the full range channels. When a speaker is set to Small, frequencies below the crossover are redirected to the sub. When a speaker is set to Large, no bass management takes place. However, if you set a speaker to Large and use the LFE+Main setting, frequencies below the crossover are played by both the speaker and the sub. That's why LFE+Main is often called Double Bass.

So, if you move the LPF up to 120Hz, then you will hear all of the content in the LFE channel from sources that have a .1 channel. However, since there's seldom much LFE content above 100Hz, changing that setting won't make much difference most of the time. But, you should still do it since there is no benefit whatsoever to lowering LPF for LFE. The impact of changing from Double Bass to just LFE is dependent on your room and your personal preferences. With the same bass frequencies playing from multiple speakers, you may have cancellation issues, which can reduce bass response. That's why is not the recommended approach. But, if you like LFE+Main, go ahead and use it.
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post #44 of 59 Old 05-25-2013, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

LPF for LFE is not the same as the bass management crossover.

The low pass filter controls which frequencies in the actual LFE channel get sent to the sub. LFE may have content up to 120Hz. If you set the filter at 100Hz, then content between 100 and 120 is thrown away. It is not redirected to the main channels. That's why LPF for LFE should be set no lower than 120Hz.

The bass management crossover controls what happens with low frequencies in the full range channels. When a speaker is set to Small, frequencies below the crossover are redirected to the sub. When a speaker is set to Large, no bass management takes place. However, if you set a speaker to Large and use the LFE+Main setting, frequencies below the crossover are played by both the speaker and the sub. That's why LFE+Main is often called Double Bass.

So, if you move the LPF up to 120Hz, then you will hear all of the content in the LFE channel from sources that have a .1 channel. However, since there's seldom much LFE content above 100Hz, changing that setting won't make much difference most of the time. But, you should still do it since there is no benefit whatsoever to lowering LPF for LFE. The impact of changing from Double Bass to just LFE is dependent on your room and your personal preferences. With the same bass frequencies playing from multiple speakers, you may have cancellation issues, which can reduce bass response. That's why is not the recommended approach. But, if you like LFE+Main, go ahead and use it.

great info. thank you very much.

By the way ... no matter what I do (try sound in Pure Direct, turn on and off dynamic EQ, add Ch level to sub, etc, etc) nothing makes my Marantz SR7005 give the same clean, pure, deep bass as Yamaha RX-A2020 did on the movie "Flight of the Phoenix" during the scene where airplaine is falling and doing a roll over. Marantz just doesn't reach where Yamaha reached.

I hope either Yamaha RX-A3900 or Denon 4311ci will be able to produce better results than Marantz SR7005 when I demo them.

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post #45 of 59 Old 05-25-2013, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post


so one says it will work another one says it won't :-)

1-The DM-A409 and ACMH1 are functionally the same and have equal characteristics for all Audyssey EQ equalization levels.
2-LFE (low frequency effects) information is "brick walled" at 120HZ in the recording phase-set LFE for sub at 120HZ
3-After you run auto setup (audyssey) it will ask you if you want dynamic EQ and dynamic volume engaged-make sure both features are turned off at this point-esp. dynamic volume. Dynamic volume compressed the dynamics of program material in 3 steps of different severity: daytime (compression), evening(more compression), and night (most compression)
4-Dynamic EQ raised low and mid range dynamics at low to moderate listening levels
5-LFE+Main only comes into play if the FLandFR speakers are considered "full range"and set to "large"-if this is the case, than LFE information is not only sent to the subwoofer, but is also sent to the FL and FR speakers. The information sent to these speakers is "below" whatever crossover frequency you have set your "large"speakers to-example-crossover set to40HZ-LFE information sent to subwoofer also sent toFL and FR below40HZ
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post #46 of 59 Old 05-25-2013, 01:15 PM
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Pianist,

You should try Anthem MRX.
Excellent reviews with music and movies.

See these reviews at avforums: http://www.avforums.com/reviews/index.php?parent=5&search_special=1
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If it sounds as though we're being harsh that isn't our intention, the RX-A1020 is a fantastic performer and its exceptional imaging capabilities will appeal to anyone who finds their current system rather vague and fuzzy. Thanks to its clean amplification it can bring genuine authority to multi-channel film soundtracks, whilst delivering a nuanced performance with well-recorded music. If it fails to reach the musicality of something like an Anthem, well that's no great failing, very few receivers can.
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The SR7007 is certainly superior to many of its Japanese brethren and it was capable of delivering a subtle and enjoyable two-channel performance, as evidenced by our recent journey through Bowie's back catalogue. However, it ultimately lacked the complete musicality that you would get with something like an Anthem receiver and if stereo performance is important to you, then bear that in mind.
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The MRX 300 was equally as assured with music, be it multi-channel or stereo, providing a subtle and nuanced performance. When reproducing stereo in particular, there was a transparency to the sound that retained all the detail in the original recordings, whilst delivering them with enthusiasm and genuine insight. We found ourselves going through all our favourite recordings, not just for review purposes but because we were enjoying hearing the recordings again. Whether it was orchestral or rock, male or female vocals, the MRX 300 delivered it all with great aplomb. In fact the ability to handle both music and soundtracks makes the MRX 300 one of those rare receivers that works just as well regardless of your listening preferences.
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post #47 of 59 Old 05-25-2013, 01:36 PM
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"You should try Anthem MRX" ... I second that. I've heard MRX 500 in a friends home and it's a very nice receiver. Another friend of mine has a all Cambridge Audio setup and it's very nice as well. I myself have owned Marantz receivers for years.

The lazy man finds the easiest way ... Ben Franklin
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post #48 of 59 Old 05-25-2013, 01:52 PM
 
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+1 more....and Emotiva is running a sale on their Sherbourn line right now that will let you scoop up the UMC200 for $100
Where??? I found $100 OFF, but NOT for $100...rolleyes.gif
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post #49 of 59 Old 05-25-2013, 02:02 PM
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Where??? I found $100 OFF, but NOT for $100...rolleyes.gif

This I believe depends on how much you spend at the Sherbourn site. Minimum of 1k gets you a $300 discount, 1.5k+ gets you $500 off at either the Sherbourn site or Emotiva site. Right now there is a sale at this Sherbourn site.



http://www.sherbourn.com/pages/direct-dollars
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how do I check that??

On the box it says .... ACM1H
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1274153/the-official-denon-avr-4311ci-avr-a100-thread-no-price-talk/21930#post_23355821
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post #51 of 59 Old 05-25-2013, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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sooo....latest news...

Hooked up Denon 4311 .... did the Audyssey with my Marantz mic .... changed speakers to Small .... crossover at 80.
Range seems correct.

Results...

Regular TV .......... very nice. Better than Marantz and 10 times better than Yamaha RX-A2020

BluRay .... also, awesome bass control 10 times better than Marantz SR7005, BUT .... on same level as Yamaha RX-2020, maybe even a bit under. I felt like I heard more detail with Yamah ... just a tad more. But BASS ..... like I said, 10 times better than Marantz and ALMOST as good as Yamaha 2020.

Music CD via Analog .... I;d say better than Marantz ... a bit more detailed, BUT, Yamaha 2020 still felt like it may have given more detail and bass. The option that Yamaha is famous for (all channels), even though many would say that it's the wrong way for listening to music, sounds very, very nice.


Anyway ......... getting my last receiver (Yamaha RX-A3900) in 2 weeks. I hope it does better than Denon 4311ci, BUT, got to tell you ... without major tweaking and with non original Denon mic ... result is very nice so far. Bass especially very controlled.

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post #52 of 59 Old 05-25-2013, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post

sooo....latest news...

Hooked up Denon 4311 .... did the Audyssey with my Marantz mic .... changed speakers to Small .... crossover at 80.
Range seems correct.

Results...

Regular TV .......... very nice. Better than Marantz and 10 times better than Yamaha RX-A2020

BluRay .... also, awesome bass control 10 times better than Marantz SR7005, BUT .... on same level as Yamaha RX-2020, maybe even a bit under. I felt like I heard more detail with Yamah ... just a tad more. But BASS ..... like I said, 10 times better than Marantz and ALMOST as good as Yamaha 2020.

Music CD via Analog .... I;d say better than Marantz ... a bit more detailed, BUT, Yamaha 2020 still felt like it may have given more detail and bass. The option that Yamaha is famous for (all channels), even though many would say that it's the wrong way for listening to music, sounds very, very nice.


Anyway ......... getting my last receiver (Yamaha RX-A3900) in 2 weeks. I hope it does better than Denon 4311ci, BUT, got to tell you ... without major tweaking and with non original Denon mic ... result is very nice so far. Bass especially very controlled.

Sorry but I still feel that in order to do a fair comparison you need to be comparing the Yamaha RX-A3000,3010,3020 against the 4311. These are the models with the version of YPAO that does calibrate sub(s). Glad you are having fun.
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post #53 of 59 Old 05-25-2013, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post

sooo....latest news...

Hooked up Denon 4311 .... did the Audyssey with my Marantz mic .... changed speakers to Small .... crossover at 80.
Range seems correct.

Results...

Regular TV .......... very nice. Better than Marantz and 10 times better than Yamaha RX-A2020



.

Can you explain in "detail" the weaknesses in the Yamaha whilst being used for regular TV? I assume is sounds "thin" & "boxy" compared to the others? Have you turned on the "adaptive DSP" or "enhancer" in the options menu on the Yamaha?
I must admit I have a Yamaha RX-A3020 with a Paradigm C5 Centre and I have tried everything to get it to sound right on regular TV, but can't win! It was fine on my previous RX-A3010 however.

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post #54 of 59 Old 05-26-2013, 05:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Can you explain in "detail" the weaknesses in the Yamaha whilst being used for regular TV? I assume is sounds "thin" & "boxy" compared to the others? Have you turned on the "adaptive DSP" or "enhancer" in the options menu on the Yamaha?
I must admit I have a Yamaha RX-A3020 with a Paradigm C5 Centre and I have tried everything to get it to sound right on regular TV, but can't win! It was fine on my previous RX-A3010 however.

Yea, i tried everything... EQ on, off, dynamic volume i did not turn on. I am kinda sure that if i spent more time with it, it probably would have become better, maybe, but price, size (it didn't fit in my cabinet), i simply felt like i should just remember where it didngreat and try to find a receiver that could come close to the good sound of movies but be as great in TV.

The 4311 so far...movies..almost as good, but TV is very, very nice. I have yet to read the manual of the 4311 and we'll see what else i can tweak.

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post #55 of 59 Old 05-26-2013, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by falconxr6 View Post

Can you explain in "detail" the weaknesses in the Yamaha whilst being used for regular TV? I assume is sounds "thin" & "boxy" compared to the others? Have you turned on the "adaptive DSP" or "enhancer" in the options menu on the Yamaha?
I must admit I have a Yamaha RX-A3020 with a Paradigm C5 Centre and I have tried everything to get it to sound right on regular TV, but can't win! It was fine on my previous RX-A3010 however.

I also have a yamaha A3020 and Tv audio has never been better. What seems to be the problem with yours?
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post #56 of 59 Old 05-28-2013, 05:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I am wondering ... what does Yamaha RX-A2010 has than Yamaha RX-V3900 doesn't have??? and where is the 3900 superior?
price right now is just $70 apart.

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post #57 of 59 Old 06-01-2013, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SARHENTO View Post

I also have a yamaha A3020 and Tv audio has never been better. What seems to be the problem with yours?

Well on the RX-A3010 I never felt the urge to make adjustments in audio whilst watching free to air commercial tv. But as soon as I got the 3020, whilst the dialog was great through the centre channel with decent recordings, poor quality ones sounded very nasally, and boxy sounding which if there is anything I cant stand, it is this! On both receivers I used the Adaptive DSP as I found it helped at low volume levels, but it is implemented differently on the 3020. My paradigm C5 is a fantastic centre, but clearly it's weakest point is reproducing low quality audio. It really exuberates the midrange making vocals sound like the actors have blocked noses under these conditions and I can only say the 3010's DSP helped here. And the same applies for Onkyo's 3010 with Dynamic EQ enabled. It sounds great, but the Onkyo's have no trigger out for the main zone, no tone controls for the Zone 2 etc. I also have a Denon AVR4520 here at the moment and it also sounds "nasally" with the C5 and no where near as Dynamic as the Onkyo. I just want a decent, large centre channel that is almost as good as the C5 but without the C5's weaknesses!!!

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post #58 of 59 Old 06-24-2013, 06:53 AM - Thread Starter
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So, going back to original topic of this forum ... :-)

In a way sad in a way happy .... after playing around with the Yamaha RX-V3900 I noticed that like all Yamahas, they are just too bright, too aggressive for my liking.

As I was going from Onkyo 818 to Denon 4311 to Marantz SR7005 to Yamaha RX-A2020 back to Denon 4311 and then to Yamaha RX-V3900 .... I noticed that the receiver that kept me most in piece with clear sound, good balance, never giving me hassle in jumping for a remote to increase volume or decrease it was no other than Denon 4311.

Initially I really liked the RX-V3900 for it's awesome sound on explosions and sound effects etc, etc, BUT .... I was judging things in a wrong way. Once I popped a 80s flick with bad sound recording or even the latest bond moves "Skyfal", Yamaha was giving aggression but unclear dialog. As I turned up the center channel and played around with EQ adding more gain to high frequencies, nothing seemed to help.

Once I switched back to Denon 4311, all of those issues became much, much less noticeable.

I also noticed better video processing. Maybe it's in my head, but Denon 4311 seems to give a better picture. Does it make sense? don't know.

Anyway .... even though Denon 4311 is costing me almost twice as Yamaha RX-V3900, I decided to stick with Denon.

I am pretty tired of all this testing and switching around. I am done :-)
A big trophy should be given to my fiance that saw about 6-7 different receiver boxes come in and go back. For her surviving the crash in the movie "Flight of the Phoenix" about 15 times. For her listening to same first 10 minutes of Dark Knight movie about 20 times even though most of the time she was at the kitchen. etc, etc :-)

I am out.

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post #59 of 59 Old 06-24-2013, 06:59 AM
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^^^

A big thumbs up to your wife and enjoy your 4311CI! biggrin.gif


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