Please help me to decide! - Denon x4000 vs 4520 - AVS Forum
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Old 05-27-2013, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys,

I need some help with an important decision - what AVR to buy smile.gif

I am deciding between Denon x4000 and Denon 4520. I have read the comparison provided by batpig here but I am still unsure which way to go. Currently I have a Yamaha DSP-Z7 which I want to replace. It's currently driving 5.0 setup of HECO Celan XT speakers (2x Celan XT 901, 2x Celan XT 301 and 1x Celan XT Center - specs here) to which I am adding a sub (Celan XT Sub 32A). The front speakers are bi-amped which I would like to keep and maybe add 2 speakers in the distatnt future (as I read on this forum today - when my CFO at home says I can...). The speakers are rated 4 to 8 ohms which kind of puzzles me to be honest. The listening room is not too big - around 36 m2.

So I am thinking which of these two I should buy. I can get the x4000 for about 1.000,- € and the 4520 for approx 1.800,- €. Maybe it is an overkill to go for a 4520 and pay the 800,- € extra but then the "what if" questions come to haunt me. That is why I need you experienced folks to give me a hand and tell me that:

a) x4000 has plenty of power to drive my humble setup or
b) I really need to go for the 4520

Any and all advice is welcome and thank you for your precious time.
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Old 05-27-2013, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dextrosan View Post

Hi guys,

I need some help with an important decision - what AVR to buy smile.gif

I am deciding between Denon x4000 and Denon 4520. I have read the comparison provided by batpig here but I am still unsure which way to go. Currently I have a Yamaha DSP-Z7 which I want to replace. It's currently driving 5.0 setup of HECO Celan XT speakers (2x Celan XT 901, 2x Celan XT 301 and 1x Celan XT Center - specs here) to which I am adding a sub (Celan XT Sub 32A). The front speakers are bi-amped which I would like to keep and maybe add 2 speakers in the distatnt future (as I read on this forum today - when my CFO at home says I can...). The speakers are rated 4 to 8 ohms which kind of puzzles me to be honest. The listening room is not too big - around 36 m2.

So I am thinking which of these two I should buy. I can get the x4000 for about 1.000,- € and the 4520 for approx 1.800,- €. Maybe it is an overkill to go for a 4520 and pay the 800,- € extra but then the "what if" questions come to haunt me. That is why I need you experienced folks to give me a hand and tell me that:

a) x4000 has plenty of power to drive my humble setup or
b) I really need to go for the 4520

Any and all advice is welcome and thank you for your precious time.
Hello Dextrosan-sounds like a simple decision: would seem you are using 7 seven AVR internal amps with your present setup-two added future speakers means two more amps. I would go 4520-9amps and CFO approval-(will make pitching additional speakers easier-you will already have the amps covered!!!!!!!!
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Old 05-27-2013, 11:06 AM
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It really depends on the features you want as although the 4520CI is more feature laden, the X4000 can pass HDMI PCM 2.0 audio to Zone 2 and optical/digital coax PCM 2.0 audio to Zones 2/3 neither of which the 4520CI can do. The X4000 can expand to 9.2 with an external amp so would meet your expansion requirement and would likely provide sufficient power to the speakers as speaker impedance will vary as noted in your speaker specs averaging between 4-8ohms.

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Old 05-27-2013, 11:17 AM
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So what specifically would the X4000 have over the 4520 other than price?
The PiP Instant Preview?
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Old 05-27-2013, 11:29 AM
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Nope .. PiP is featured on both. Edited my previous post to be more specific.

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Old 05-27-2013, 11:59 AM
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He's using a 5.0 system so he doesn't need a 9.2 AVR. Either would work if he want to go that direction. Power wise given room size and speakers, yes the AVR-X4000 or the AVR-4520 would work. Certainly he could pay for the sub with the money saved, and he has the option with pre-amp outputs to drive a external amp.

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Old 05-27-2013, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

He's using a 5.0 system so he doesn't need a 9.2 AVR. Either would work if he want to go that direction. Power wise given room size and speakers, yes the AVR-X4000 or the AVR-4520 would work. Certainly he could pay for the sub with the money saved, and he has the option with pre-amp outputs to drive a external amp.[/quote
Hellow John AV-He said he was bi-amping his FL and FR-unless my math is bad, that is 7 amps needed for 5.0
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Old 05-27-2013, 12:55 PM
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^^
You'll need to add a "]" to the end of the word "quote" in order for your response to be more noticeable. smile.gif

But yes, you are correct, in that the OP is indeed using 7CH with the desire to add 2 more speakers so would need a 9.1 capable AVR if the additional speakers are to be placed in the main zone.

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Old 05-27-2013, 01:14 PM
 
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X4000 forsure. I really don't see any reason to pay that much more for, from what I can tell, only 2 extra channel amplifiers/pre-outs? both the x4000 and 4520ci can do 9.2. The 125 watt to 150 watt power per channel will be unnoticeable. Honestly I'd say that the X4000 is actually a BETTER receiver overall because it has hdmi passthrough to a second zone and is considerably lower cost. The only reason to go with the 4520 would be if you need 11.2.
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Old 05-27-2013, 01:25 PM
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The X4000 is a very capable model, however, it boils down to what features/inputs/outputs are required as to whether the 4520CI would be more appropriate, especially with the impedance of the speakers. The 4520CI is designed to power 4-ohm speakers (easily doing so even at reference level volume) whereas the X4000 is not, likely only capable of attaining average (ie. -20db) volume levels with 4-ohm speakers before shutting down in protection mode.

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Old 05-27-2013, 01:56 PM
 
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ah I did not see that the 4520 could power 4 ohm. That is a very nice feature on an avr.
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Old 05-27-2013, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The X4000 is a very capable model, however, it boils down to what features/inputs/outputs are required as to whether the 4520CI would be more appropriate, especially with the impedance of the speakers. The 4520CI is designed to power 4-ohm speakers (easily doing so even at reference level volume) whereas the X4000 is not, likely only capable of attaining average (ie. -20db) volume levels with 4-ohm speakers before shutting down in protection mode.
JD I have a 5.0 system being driven by 2809 and the speakers drop down to close to 3 ohm, and the AVR never gets warm, making those paradigm reference 100 v.5 shake the whole room at very loud levels. Sometimes I think people who have a bit more amp power aren't realistic when they start talking about the AVR shutting down in protection mode if dealing with 8 ohm that dip to 4 ohm speakers. cool.gif

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Old 05-27-2013, 02:25 PM
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It's simply a caution that it's more likely to occur with the X4000 or 3313CI and lower models than with the flagship 4311CI or 4520CI and of course also depends on the efficiency rating of the 4-ohm speakers.

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Old 05-27-2013, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the input so far. Truth be told I am mainly concerned about power and sound quality - i.e. whether the X4000 will be able to drive the speakers (current setup plus the sub) and with reasonable quality. The current Yamaha DSP-Z7 has specifications like this: Rated Output Power (20Hz-20kHz, 2ch driven) 140W x 7 [0.04%]. I am not sure at what resistance this is measured (probably 8 ohm I guess) and if the power output is comparable but I would rather not go down in power - I'd prefer an upgrade of course :-)

Please be gentle if my thoughts and conclusions are nonsense...
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Old 05-27-2013, 03:53 PM
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^^
jd is giving you good advice. if power capability is the most important thing for you >> the 4520 is the choice.

while lower cost receivers in a line-up have many of the same features as the top models, what more money gets you is also the large power supply needed to maintain close to that power rating under heavy demands & large dynamic peaks across all channels, even with low impedance speakers. there is a reason why the lower models cost a lot less wink.gif

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Old 05-27-2013, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

It's simply a caution that it's more likely to occur with the X4000 or 3313CI and lower models than with the flagship 4311CI or 4520CI and of course also depends on the efficiency rating of the 4-ohm speakers.
Yes, my input is based on the type of speakers he used. Adding a subwoofer would decrease the power requirements of his setup. When receivers get to about this price level you usually expect them to have ample current reserve to drive efficient tower array speakers of better brands to decent listening levels. wink.gif

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Old 05-27-2013, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

^^
jd is giving you good advice. if power capability is the most important thing for you >> the 4520 is the choice.

while lower cost receivers in a line-up have many of the same features as the top models, what more money gets you is also the large power supply needed to maintain close to that power rating under heavy demands & large dynamic peaks across all channels, even with low impedance speakers. there is a reason why the lower models cost a lot less wink.gif
The 4520 is more useful as a 11.2 amp and having 32 bit DAC's then simple handling heavy demands and large dynamic peaks across channels. For the additional money its the audio performance/quality your looking for. The audio sounds less compressed, better tonal aspects across the frequency spectrum. If you check audioholics review of the x4000 in that musicality aspect they like what they tested:
Quote:
SACD: Alison Kraus + Union Station: Live
Alison Kraus = awesome. Union Station = awesome. Together = mind blown! SACDs are hard to come by these days, and are quickly becoming obsolete thanks to HiRes downloads and Blu-ray, but there are still plenty of SACD gems to come by. You may just have to look a little harder, okay, a lot harder. Track 1, “Let Me Touch You For Awhile” starts out with the audience cheering and slowly fades to Kraus’s voice backed up by Union Station’s instrumentation. The X4000 handled this track with the utmost delicacy and pin point imaging. The standup bass was noticeably more defined with Audyssey engaged, but the acoustic guitars had a fuller bottom octave on Direct and Pure Direct modes. “Bright Sunny South” is about as lively as this 2 disc collection gets. Dan Tyminski takes over vocals as Kraus plays the fiddle and the audience claps along in the background. The AVR-X4000 had no problem belting out the track louder and louder, until I had to stop for the sake of my ears. Granted, the LSiM703s aren’t particularly hard to drive, but with a rated sensitivity of 88dB they aren’t particularly easy either.

Mind you you could go either way with a x4000, or a 4520, depends on the speakers utilized, room size, your favorite media you like to play. IMHO the MultiEQ XT 32 clearly makes a difference with the x4000. If you got the money by all means splurge on a 4520. cool.gif

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Old 05-27-2013, 05:58 PM
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Audioholics just posted an X4000 review--

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/denon-avr-x4000-review

nice it has sub eq!
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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The 4520 is more useful as a 11.2 amp and having 32 bit DAC's then simple handling heavy demands and large dynamic peaks across channels. For the additional money its the audio performance/quality your looking for. The audio sounds less compressed, better tonal aspects across the frequency spectrum. If you check audioholics review of the x4000 in that musicality aspect they like what they tested:
Mind you you could go either way with a x4000, or a 4520, depends on the speakers utilized, room size, your favorite media you like to play. IMHO the MultiEQ XT 32 clearly makes a difference with the x4000. If you got the money by all means splurge on a 4520. cool.gif

After reading the review from audioholics, watching AVLAND youtube review and last but not least reading your "splurging" comment :-), I am inclined to go ahead and try the X4000. Should this decision prove wrong, I can always go ahead and upgrade once again and by that time a successor to the 4520 might be around. So thank you all for your suggestions, comments and advice. I always like coming back to this community (although I am a rather passive "reader")!
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Old 05-29-2013, 03:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

It really depends on the features you want as although the 4520CI is more feature laden, the X4000 can pass HDMI PCM 2.0 audio to Zone 2 and optical/digital coax PCM 2.0 audio to Zones 2/3 neither of which the 4520CI can do. The X4000 can expand to 9.2 with an external amp so would meet your expansion requirement and would likely provide sufficient power to the speakers as speaker impedance will vary as noted in your speaker specs averaging between 4-8ohms.

JD, could you elaborate a little more on the X4000 passing HDMI PCM 2.0 signal. I looked in the 4520 and X4000 manuala and I am a bit confused about the difference. From what I understand, the 4520 can pass a different HDMI signal to a secondary TV but the TV has to be able to decode the signal - i.e. if the source is sending DTS the TV has to be able to decode it. Does it mean that the X4000 is able to transcode the signal to PCM 2.0 from any source and send that to a secondary TV. That sounds quite neat if so.
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Old 05-29-2013, 03:49 AM
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In this instance the 4520CI features a Zone 4 HDMI output to an HDMI sink (ie. either another AVR or HDMI TV) but there is no processing of the signal, rather it simply passes through. If connecting the HDMI source directly to the TV does not provide audio (ie. the TV cannot process the DD/DTS 5.1) then connecting to the 4520CI Zone 4 HDMI output will provide no additional relief. The new Denon X4000 (and X3000 for that matter) each also feature a similar HDMI output however for Zone 2. What the X4000/X3000 feature additionally, is the ability to convert the Zone 2 HDMI audio signal to PCM 2.0 and pass it directly to either the Zone 2 pre-outs or speaker posts (ie. not via the Zone 2 (HDMI) output). Additionally it can also pass a PCM 2.0 optical/digital coax source signal to Zone 2 (and Zone 3/X4000).

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Old 05-29-2013, 05:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for the clarification. I thought I could connect a bedroom TV to the X4000 ZONE 2 HDMI and would not have to worry about anything else, that the X4000 would chew the signal to 2.0 PCM and output it through the ZONE 2 HDMI. I guess that won't be happening with this gen DENON AVRs.
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Old 05-29-2013, 06:44 AM
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Question for you more knowledgable guys, with all other things being equal, how does the AVR-4520 compare sound quality wise, to the X4000? Compare the DAC's, DSP, digital & analog output stages? What about the AVR-3310 compared to tte X4000 or the AVR-4520?
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Old 05-29-2013, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Question for you more knowledgable guys, with all other things being equal, how does the AVR-4520 compare sound quality wise, to the X4000? Compare the DAC's, DSP, digital & analog output stages? What about the AVR-3310 compared to tte X4000 or the AVR-4520?
Its a bit early to have definite descriptive audio quality comparisons to how a x4000 sounds compared to a 4520, as people are only starting to receive the x4000 units in. But if you have the urge to want to have a bit better AVR using say 192 Khz/32-bit DACs over 192 Khz/24-bit DACs along with offering 7.1 analog inputs for example, then the 4520 is your only choice. (focus on DAC's, DSP, digital and analog output stages).

Why even ask to compare a much older AVR-3310 to two recent AVRs such as the x4000 or the 4520? Is this because you own one? cool.gif

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Old 05-29-2013, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Question for you more knowledgable guys, with all other things being equal, how does the AVR-4520 compare sound quality wise, to the X4000? Compare the DAC's, DSP, digital & analog output stages? What about the AVR-3310 compared to tte X4000 or the AVR-4520?

The 3310CI was downgraded to MultEQ so any of the new "X" models would be an upgrade in audio quality.

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Old 05-29-2013, 08:06 PM
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If you were to use an external amp with either the x4000 or 4520 will the audio quality be much different because of the better dac in the 4520?

I am finding it hard to justify the price difference between units if the audio quality is close.

The only other item is the missing 7.1 analog audio inputs on the x4000. As I understand it, the analog inputs bypass any room correction which is unfortunate.
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Old 06-30-2013, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by istrompf View Post

If you were to use an external amp with either the x4000 or 4520 will the audio quality be much different because of the better dac in the 4520?

I am finding it hard to justify the price difference between units if the audio quality is close.

The only other item is the missing 7.1 analog audio inputs on the x4000. As I understand it, the analog inputs bypass any room correction which is unfortunate.


You yourself said it best: "I am finding it hard to justify the price difference between units if the audio quality is close." wink.gif


...Glenn smile.gif
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Old 06-30-2013, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by istrompf View Post

If you were to use an external amp with either the x4000 or 4520 will the audio quality be much different because of the better dac in the 4520?

I am finding it hard to justify the price difference between units if the audio quality is close.

The only other item is the missing 7.1 analog audio inputs on the x4000. As I understand it, the analog inputs bypass any room correction which is unfortunate.

A good comparison is made in post #1 of the "2013 Denon AVR-E/X Models" thread linked in my sig. If the additional features of the 4520CI are not required or the additional cost cannot be justified, then the X4000 would serve you well.

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Old 06-30-2013, 03:02 PM
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Just to add confusion, from the sister company Marantz is the new SR7008 supposedly available end of this month. It is positioned in between the X4000 and 4520. US LIst pricing is $1999 for the Marantz with the 4520 at $2499 and the X4000 at $1399 I believe.

The Marantz has 2 additional amps and other features of the 4520 as well as the X4000 and possibly might fit the bill.
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Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver
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