The "Official" Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A1030, RX-A2030, RX-A3030 and CX-A5000/MX-A5000 Thread - Page 125 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3721 of 3749 Old 07-08-2015, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post
I have been there done that on the video side. Using a sensor with HCFR. When my ISF guy came he wondered what happened... Often I think you can do as much harm as good. Like Audyssey it's not perfect by any means. Just like Audyssey there are a lot of variables that come into play.

I was simply surprised that YPAO didn't even try to EQ anything below 100Hz... after I have read other wise all this time.
Agreed. Just wanted to make sure that you understood that trading in your receiver for one with Audyssey doesnt mean that your sub will sound great all of a sudden.
Most major sub issues are due to poor placement.
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post #3722 of 3749 Old 07-14-2015, 02:20 PM
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Currently reading through this entire thread, but wanted to post to see if there were any impressions of the A2030 vs the Denon 4520ci and/or Marantz SR7008. I recently sold my Marantz SR6004 which was praised for its sound quality and musicality when it was a new model. I tend to agree, I loved the sound, but it had HDMI issues and it was time to move on. I realize there are spec differences in the 3 units I've mentioned, like number of channels etc, but my main concern is sound above all else. At the moment, I only have a 3.1 setup using Klipsch RF5 mains and RC7 center (known for being on the "bright" side, but not as much as the RF3's), and don't plan to have more than a 5.2 setup anytime soon. My current room is a bit difficult, so the room correction may play a big part here. However, I don't think we plan to be in this house much longer than 6 months. That said, I don't see the next move having a 20x30 living room or anything. For reference, here is a picture of my current setup, taken from my main listening position. The couch I'm sitting on is up against the wall, which opens into the kitchen to my right. The left front speaker in the picture is about 15" from the side wall and 6" from the back wall. The right front speaker is also 6" from the wall behind it, but has no wall to the right of it. Someone mentioned in another thread to toe the mains in. They are toed in about 15 degrees, though hard to tell from the pic.

Side note, My RX-V1700 is currently in place of the SR6004 until I decide which unit to go with. I definitely prefer the sound of the Marantz to the Yamaha, but I also had run AudysseyXT a few times until I was satisfied, and haven't run YPAO on the Yamaha in here, though I did play with some of the manual EQ functions (distance, speaker levels, speaker size, etc). I hear the Aventage series do sound better though?
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post #3723 of 3749 Old 07-23-2015, 05:18 AM
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Thinking seriously about buying a 2030. Any issues I should know about before buying?
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post #3724 of 3749 Old 07-23-2015, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 01svtL View Post
Currently reading through this entire thread, but wanted to post to see if there were any impressions of the A2030 vs the Denon 4520ci and/or Marantz SR7008.
I sold my RX-A820 and initially upgraded to a Marantz SR7008 ($850). As I added height/presence speakers and adding a new (real) subwoofer I wanted Audyssey XT32 (handles dual subs). I have had it for a couple of days now as the first one would go into protection mode (for no good reason). I have used the SR series before and all and all I'm very impressed with them.

One feature I can't replace is Dialogue Lift and with my center under the screen vocals bother the heck out of me. So when I found the RX-A2030 ($799) for a great price I figured I would give it a try. Both have 60-day return and I only cover return shipping. It should arrive today. I don't expect it to be much different than the RX-A820 outside of nine amps so I can do 9.2.

For me it's...

SR70008
  • Audyssey XT32 (better EQ and handles two subwoofers)
  • Separate crossovers (some what irrelevant since outside of the height/presence speakers I can live with one and Yamaha can't send much bass to the presence speakers as it can't even be set to small or large).
  • Perhaps Audyssey DSX - upmixer for 9.2 channels
  • You can turn off the display
  • Save/Restore (all) settings to/from your PC

RX-A2030
  • Dialogue Lift via front presence speakers

Build quality and styling is very close. If it wasn't for Dialogue Lift I'd probably stay/go with the SR7008. My decision will be based on... if the sub/subs sound as well with the RX-A2030 I'll probably pick it. If not, I'll live with the low vocals and go with the SR7008. I'm guessing you can't go wrong with either...

Last edited by Charles R; 07-23-2015 at 02:10 PM.
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post #3725 of 3749 Old 07-23-2015, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post
I sold my RX-A820 and initially upgraded to a Marantz SR7008 ($850). As I added height/presence speakers and adding a new (real) subwoofer I wanted Audyssey XT32 (handles dual subs). I have had it for a couple of days now as the first one would go into protection mode (for no good reason). I have used the SR series before and all and all I'm very impressed with them.

One feature I can't replace is Dialogue Lift and with my center under the screen vocals bother the heck out of me. So when I found the RX-A2030 ($799) for a great price I figured I would give it a try. Both have 60-day return and I only cover return shipping. It should arrive today. I don't expect it to be much different than the RX-A820 outside of nine amps so I can do 9.2.

For me it's...

SR70008
Audyssey XT32 (better EQ and handles two subwoofers)
Separate crossovers (some what irrelevant since outside of the height/presence speakers I can live with one and Yamaha can't send much bass to the presence speakers as it can't even be set to small or large).
Perhaps Audyssey DSX - upmixer for 9.2 channels

RX-A2030
Dialogue Lift via front presence speakers

Build quality and styling is very close. If it wasn't for Dialogue Lift I'd probably stay/go with the SR7008. My decision will be based on... if the sub/subs sound as well with the RX-A2030 I'll probably pick it. If not, I'll live with the low vocals and go with the SR7008. I'm guessing you can't go wrong with either...
Cool. Let me know what you think and which one you decide to keep? How far under your tv is the center?
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post #3726 of 3749 Old 07-23-2015, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 01svtL View Post
Cool. Let me know what you think and which one you decide to keep? How far under your tv is the center?
UPS just dropped it off while I was wrapping up cutting the grass. As you can see from the image my center is rather low as the screen itself is only 22" off the floor. Even pointing it directly at me I find myself staring at the floor (at times) and the vocals never blend into the image. I find it distracting.

With the RX-A820 I was using speakers outside of the fronts as presence speakers and it lifted the vocals nicely. But the RX-820 is only 7.2 and I couldn't use rear surrounds at the same time. So when I added the presence/height speakers above the screen (you can almost see them - I know they should be wider apart but I can hide the wires this way plus it keeps them further away from the fronts) I needed to go 9.2. This image shows the two subs I was testing...

Frankly, I would base my decision on which one offers the most features you'll use.


Last edited by Charles R; 07-23-2015 at 01:02 PM.
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post #3727 of 3749 Old 07-23-2015, 09:47 PM
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I see. That's an impressive room! Mine's just going to go in the living room haha.
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post #3728 of 3749 Old 07-24-2015, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 01svtL View Post
Let me know what you think and which one you decide to keep?
Short story I decided to go with the Marantz SR7008. Long story Dialogue Lift worked rather nicely with the presence speakers although at the same time the unfocused vocals tend to "wash out" much of the directionality of everything else. Plus when the presence (height with the SR7008) speakers are used for vocals you lose the effect of a larger sound field. As the presence speakers are dominated by the vocals rather than expanding the "stage"

My usage is rather unique and as such so is my "deciding factors" and it certainly doesn't make one better than the other. Rather the Marantz simply offers more features I find useful.
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post #3729 of 3749 Old 07-24-2015, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

SR70008
  • Audyssey XT32 (better EQ and handles two subwoofers)
  • Separate crossovers (some what irrelevant since outside of the height/presence speakers I can live with one and Yamaha can't send much bass to the presence speakers as it can't even be set to small or large).
  • Perhaps Audyssey DSX - upmixer for 9.2 channels
  • You can turn off the display
  • Save/Restore (all) settings to/from your PC

RX-A2030
  • Dialogue Lift via front presence speakers
A2030 will eq 2 subs debatable if Audyssey is better at it.
A2030 will let you set cross over for each pair of speakers
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post #3730 of 3749 Old 07-24-2015, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by PretzelFisch View Post
A2030 will eq 2 subs debatable if Audyssey is better at it.
A2030 will let you set cross over for each pair of speakers
The "Official" Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A1030, RX-A2030, RX-A3030 and CX-A5000/MX-A5000 Thread

Among other remarks...

A look at the graphic presentation of YPAO's correction results revealed all (fig.1). All of the correction filters were of low Q (ie, broad in frequency), and there was little correction in the low end. One of the L/C/R channels now had a filter at 63.1Hz, but the rest were at 78.7Hz or above. No filters below 125Hz were applied to the L/R surround channels, even though their placements in the room's corners subject them to a severe diagonal room mode near 45Hz. Nor were any filters applied to the subwoofers below 125Hz; with the Yamaha's bass management applied at 40Hz (fronts) and 80Hz (surrounds), this meant that YPAO was not applying EQ below 100Hz.

YPAO has filters that can have their center frequency set as low as 31.3Hz, and a more-than-adequate range of gain and Q, so it could be used for the bass—but it seems that the correction algorithm made no use of these filters. This left me with three options: 1) I could use the RoomEQ Wizard, Omnimic, or XTZPro room-optimization software to measure and develop bass filters to add to YPAO's results; 2) I could add an external subwoofer equalizer; or 3) I could accept the Yamaha's settings and say that, although the Aventage CX-A5000 is an excellent, transparent, capable pre-pro, in this aspect it is flawed.


In the comments...

Yes, YPAO is supposed to do LF/Sub EQ but, in my experience with the CX-A5000, it failed to apply any useful filters to that range. One could apply them manually with the appropriate measurement tools.

Last edited by Charles R; 07-24-2015 at 09:22 AM.
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post #3731 of 3749 Old 07-28-2015, 11:08 AM
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^ I'm not coming in here to crap on anything as I'm very interested in Yamaha- and anyone else- who can jam as much sonic bliss and functionality as possible out of a black rectangle, but I must say I'm thoroughly miffed at the exclusion of low-end/subwoofer EQ. Just don't get it at this point in 2015, and certainly less so in a multi-kilo-buck PRE/PRO.

I mean who do they think are buying these things and what the number one bugaboo is?? Is there ANY question it's about the low-end EQ?

I was hopeful that the 5000's successor would address the issue but I'm not so optimistic now.

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post #3732 of 3749 Old 07-28-2015, 01:30 PM
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^ I'd be surprised if YPAO never tried to EQ the sub on a model that has that capability. I know it's been reported that it didn't in one particular review (not sure if it was more than one), but anyone who's run YPAO on a 20x0/30x0/5000 can easily check to see what filters were applied to the sub (just the web setup page to see them). If a few people can do that it would be interesting.
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post #3733 of 3749 Old 07-28-2015, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post
^ I'd be surprised if YPAO never tried to EQ the sub on a model that has that capability. I know it's been reported that it didn't in one particular review (not sure if it was more than one), but anyone who's run YPAO on a 20x0/30x0/5000 can easily check to see what filters were applied to the sub (just the web setup page to see them). If a few people can do that it would be interesting.

I'd be glad to see if any filters were applied to my recent YPAO run. I may be able to view these in the GUI, but are you referring to the Web Control Center via IP address or some other interface? I don't see anything but basic operations in there on my RX-A2000...
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post #3734 of 3749 Old 07-28-2015, 03:21 PM
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^ Add /setup after the IP address to get the detailed setup page (on the 2000 it might be case sensitive and require a trailing /, so also try /Setup, /Setup/ etc.).

Then it should be under System/Speaker_Preout/Pattern_1/PEQ/Flat_Data etc. Drill down to the sub and check each band to see what's set.

Check Natural and Flat in case they're different.

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post #3735 of 3749 Old 07-28-2015, 05:16 PM
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Thx for the additional info, kriktsemaj99. Unfortunately I can't seem to pull up the setup on the 2000, but was able to on the 5000. Reviewing the ''Pattern 1 -> PEQ' settings for both Flat and Natural Data, I don't see any YPAO changes implemented lower than 125 Hz.

As you mentioned, there is the option of making manual changes at multiple frequency points below 125Hz, but from what I can see, YPAO isn't applying anything in it's calibration...
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post #3736 of 3749 Old 07-28-2015, 05:28 PM
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You should see 4 filter bands for each subwoofer. Are you saying they all have Gain = 0.0dB (meaning they were not set)?

Also on the 2000 make sure you type exactly /Setup/ after the IP address. e.g. 192.168.1.135/Setup/

Maybe the 2000 doesn't have that feature, but I remember that when it first appeared you had to type the address exactly (upper case S and final /). On the newer models they are more flexible.
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post #3737 of 3749 Old 07-28-2015, 05:42 PM
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I do see all 4 bands, but all are 125 Hz and up, here's a screenshot from the Flat settings:



I tried every variant I can think of for the 2000 URL, but no joy. Not a biggie, just for some reason it displays a blank page, but the standard web control center pages are accessible.
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post #3738 of 3749 Old 07-28-2015, 06:50 PM
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^ OK, thanks for checking. I suppose you could always have a perfect room, but that seems unlikely!

Now it would be interesting to get a few more data points from other people to see if we can find anyone with filters at lower frequencies.
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post #3739 of 3749 Old 07-28-2015, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post
^ OK, thanks for checking. I suppose you could always have a perfect room, but that seems unlikely!

Now it would be interesting to get a few more data points from other people to see if we can find anyone with filters at lower frequencies.
Hahaha, it's a decent room, but nobody's that lucky... IIRC, when I recorded some room response value graphs some years back with an Infinty R.A.B.O.S. kit, there was a bit of a suck-out between 48-60 Hz, but relatively tame for the most part. Different sub and some furniture changes, but the room for the most part has stayed the same.

Definitely interested to see some readings from others.
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post #3740 of 3749 Old Yesterday, 03:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post
^ Add /setup after the IP address to get the detailed setup page (on the 2000 it might be case sensitive and require a trailing /, so also try /Setup, /Setup/ etc.).

Then it should be under System/Speaker_Preout/Pattern_1/PEQ/Flat_Data etc. Drill down to the sub and check each band to see what's set.

Check Natural and Flat in case they're different.
For my 2030.
Flat subwoofer YPAO settings: Band1 99.2Hz -2.5, Band2 250Hz +6, Band3 125Hz 0, Band4 250Hz 0.
Natural subwoofer YPAO settings: Band1 99.2Hz -2.5, Band2 250Hz +6, Band3 125Hz 0, 250Hz 0.
Front subwoofer YPAO settings: Band1 99.2Hz -2.5, Band2 250Hz +6, Band3 125Hz 0, Band4 250Hz 0.

All are identical with nothing done below 99.2Hz.
Since my xover is 80Hz it seems safe to say YPAO is useless for my subwoofer.

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post #3741 of 3749 Old Yesterday, 06:39 AM
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Nothing below the crossover, and also why boost 250Hz by 6dB? (can you check the Q factor to see if it's a wide or narrow boost?)

If this pattern continues maybe as many people as possible should start reporting this to Yamaha and asking if there are any plans to improve YPAO sub EQ. Usually their initial response is that it's working as intended, but it may at least get them thinking about it. Especially if a report of no sub filters is accompanied by response measurements showing that the sub clearly needs EQ.
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post #3742 of 3749 Old Yesterday, 07:45 AM
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Q values
Flat Band1-4 1.26, 2.52, 1.00, 1.00
Front Band1-4 1.26, 2.52, 1.00, 1.00
Natural Band1-4 1.26, 2.52, 1.00, 1.00
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post #3743 of 3749 Old Yesterday, 03:53 PM
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RX-A3030
Flat data sub 1 band 1_F 62.5Hz_G -1.0db_Q 1.587
band 2_F 250Hz_G 6.0db_Q 2.00
band 3_F 125Hz_G 0.0db_Q 0.0
band 4_F 250Hz_G 0.0db_Q 0.0
sub 2 band 1_F 62.5Hz_G -2.0db_Q 1.587
band 2_F 250Hz_G 6.0db_Q 2.520
band 3_F 125Hz_G 0.0db_Q 1.0
band 4_F 250Hz_G 0.0db_Q 1.0

Front data sub 1 band 1_F 62.5Hz_G -1.0db_Q 1.587
band 2_F 250Hz_G 6.0db_Q 2.00
band 3_F 125Hz_G 0.0db_Q 0.0
band 4_F 250Hz_G 0.0db_Q 0.0
sub 2 band 1_F 62.5Hz_G -2.0db_Q 1.587
band 2_F 250Hz_G 6.0db_Q 2.00
band 3_F 125Hz_G 0.0db_Q 0.0
band 4_F 250Hz_G 0.0db_Q 0.0

And exact same for natural
Compared to your 2030 only difference is the 3030 likes 62.5 Hz and at a Q of 1.587 instead of your Q @ 1.26
and why a such a boost @ 250Hz of 6.0 db?

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post #3744 of 3749 Old Yesterday, 04:40 PM
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Yamaha owners don't feel so bad. Ypao is junk at room eq, but so is every other brand that uses
internal solutions. Just not enough processing power to crunch the numbers. Every computer based
auto room eq blows away any brands internal eq. Even xt32. Audioholics actually measured both
brands eq with graphs clearly showing off/on results overlayed. They measured the denon x5200
and the eq was horrible. Even the bass region. Here is their graph of the A2020 eq. Pretty bad.

Break out the room eq wizard and $100 for the usb mic and verify/tweak eq manually. If that
doesn't work use an external eq on the subwoofer at least. Graph of xt32 from review here.
The other mainstream brands measure just as bad.
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post #3745 of 3749 Old Yesterday, 06:28 PM
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^ One problem with that audioholics review you linked to is that it claims the lowest Yamaha PEQ frequency (even if set manually) is 62.5Hz, when it's actually a whole octave lower at 31.3Hz. That doesn't inspire much confidence in the rest of what they have to say.
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post #3746 of 3749 Old Yesterday, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
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Even xt32.
To be fair I have seen some very nice graphs with XT32. I think the main point is at least it tries. Worse case you have a puncher's chance...
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post #3747 of 3749 Old Yesterday, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post
To be fair I have seen some very nice graphs with XT32. I think the main point is at least it tries. Worse case you have a puncher's chance...
But with XT youre stuck with the results from what I understand. With YPAO you can manually adjust it.
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post #3748 of 3749 Old Yesterday, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
But with XT youre stuck with the results from what I understand. With YPAO you can manually adjust it.
I haven't played with it but the Marantz has manual adjustments as well... how and how well I don't have a clue.

Graphic EQ

Use the 9 band graphic equalizer to adjust the tone of each speaker.

• “Graphic EQ” can be set when “MultEQ® XT32” (vpage  167) setting is “Graphic EQ”.
• Speakers for which “Graphic EQ” can be set differ according to the sound mode.

Speaker Selection

Select whether to adjust tones for individual speakers or for all speakers.
All
Left/Right (Default)
Each

Adjust EQ

Adjust tonal balance for each frequency band.

Adjust the speaker selected in “Speaker Selection”.
Select the speaker.
Select the adjustment frequency band.
63Hz / 125Hz / 250Hz / 500Hz / 1kHz / 2kHz / 4kHz / 8kHz / 16kHz
Adjust the level.
–20.0dB – +6.0dB (Default : 0.0dB)
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post #3749 of 3749 Unread Today, 02:59 AM
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The graphic eq in marantz and every other mainstream brand is worthless. Using it does turn audyssey off.
And only one eq band below 80hz. That eq isn't available on the subwoofer out either. Subwoofer is auto eq only.
Yamaha is only brand with any real eq on the subwoofer. Onkyo and Pioneer offer 1 filter below 80hz on sub.
None of the other brands offer selectable band frequency(1/3 octave from 31hz) or q factor.
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