The "Official" Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A1030, RX-A2030, RX-A3030 and CX-A5000/MX-A5000 Thread - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 3201 Old 08-09-2013, 03:09 PM
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While I am highly interested in the CX-A5000 I would have no interest in the MX-A5000. Now if they made a 3 channel and a 8 channel or any 11 channel combo (5/6 or 7/4) then perhaps. But when you can get an Outlaw 7500 for $1600 there are better options, IMO, of course.

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post #362 of 3201 Old 08-09-2013, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhongomz View Post

As an aside, I thought this was proven to be a myth? I thought clipping wasn't a danger unless the clipping was occurring because the speakers couldn't handle the output. I.e., speakers rated for 250w and you are trying to feed them 1500w. But if you have speakers that can handle 2000w and you feed it that 1500w event though it's severely distorted, then it should be ok. Right? Because clipping is just a square wave and there are plenty of sources that use such waves, techno being one of them.

Edit: By "it should be ok" refers to the speakers and not the amp since if you are pushing your amp that hard, you can expect your amp to not be very happy...

I saw an article just today on this. And I'm not sure I can accept the conclusion wink.gif

because I have blown fuses on Magnepans, several times back in the 80's with MG-1's which were able to handle up to 150-200 watts but I was using with a 60 wpc Sansui receiver! and a year or 2 ago, while playing one of the MI films at close to 0.0 dB reference level, I blew the 2.5 A tweeter fuse on my Magnepan center channel with my 200 watt Pioneer SC-09, the bass-mid panel fuse did not blow. there are people driving Magnepans with anything from < 100 watt receivers up to kilowatt+ amplifiers. so handling the power is not the problem.

I've also seen someone back in the late 60's blow Bose 901's in his dorm room passing a pure non-clipped wave with good amps wink.gif

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post #363 of 3201 Old 08-09-2013, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Well, yes and no.

1. From the max power consumption spec, we can guesstimate an approximate of 65 wpc all ch driven at full spectrum with 1% THD or less.

The only part I dislike from the MX is that it doesn't actually list the power output in a clear manner which leads to guestimation...which I personally dislike but unfortunately a necessary evil in this case. frown.gif

1. you shouldn't have to guesstimate wink.gif

"it doesn't actually list the power output in a clear manner "

I think the word obfuscation is appropriate: "the hiding of intended meaning in communication, making communication confusing, wilfully ambiguous, and harder to interpret"

Yamaha isn't the only one doing similar things. I see Marantz has one power spec on their 8077 amp, of 210 w for 1 channel at 1Khz & 10% distortion. Too bad - I was going to use them as an example of a AVR company doing it right redface.gif

Marantz is also guilty, just not quite as guilty as Yamaha with half dozen different ratings and a whopper of a power spec meant to impress not inform. maybe they are too embarrassed to publish the actual power supply size wink.gif

let's put it this way...in the AVR world, this kind of practice is "accepted" by some companies in a competitive world. but I still believe the vast majority of dedicated amp mfg's wouldn't be doing this. Yamaha used receiver amp mentality in a separates market & the 2 aren't the same.

for anyone looking at separates, putting your money into good amps is an important choice. otherwise, why even bother? to me, inflating or giving multitude of confusing power ratings just makes that brand less desirable to an informed & serious amp buyer.

IOW, Yamaha (& Marantz) are actually hurting themselves selling excellent, hi-end prepros along with amps with inflated, misleading specs.

if Yamaha wants to sell an 11 ch amp good enough for the separates market, they should have put in the transformer and capacitance to make it worthy, not wimp out on a flagship receiver grade amp rolleyes.gif

all I can say is - I would never buy this amp even if I owned the CX-A5000

too many really good alternatives that will far outperform it and not cost an outrageous amt, as long as you don't want a Krell, Theta, etc eek.gif for someone with more $$, you can find used & highly respected Parasound Halo A51's for ~$2500, get 2 and a cheap mid-range 2 ch amp from Emotiva for $300 and not need anything else for a very long time. an A51 has a 2.2 or 2.4KVA transformer, not some receiver sized 850 VA trannie tongue.gif at that power output, what's the point of this $3K amp? might as well buy the receiver version! rolleyes.gif

I'm not in the Emo fanclub, but with $3000, I can put a nice down-payment on 2-5 ch XPR-5 amps that will blow the Yamaha away & get their cheap 100 UPA-200 125 wpc for the heights/presence. total cost - $4377

or the 7 ch Outlaw 7900 monster (7 X 350 w @ 8 ohms) + 1 Emo XPA-5. total cost - $4498

and there are other lower cost combinations since the presence & rear channels won't need the power.

or keep that older AVR you aren't going to get much for on Ebay & use it for heights and rears.

the point is - there are many alternatives that will provide far more than your "65 wpc all channels driven" & yet not break the bank.

David, come on, be honest, even at $3000 price point, that's pitiful power for an amp meant for the separates market.
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post #364 of 3201 Old 08-09-2013, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

I saw an article just today on this. And I'm not sure I can accept the conclusion wink.gif

because I have blown fuses on Magnepans, several times back in the 80's with MG-1's which were able to handle up to 150-200 watts but I was using with a 60 wpc Sansui receiver! and a year or 2 ago, while playing one of the MI films at close to 0.0 dB reference level, I blew the 2.5 A tweeter fuse on my Magnepan center channel with my 200 watt Pioneer SC-09, the bass-mid panel fuse did not blow. there are people driving Magnepans with anything from < 100 watt receivers up to kilowatt+ amplifiers. so handling the power is not the problem.

I've also seen someone back in the late 60's blow Bose 901's in his dorm room passing a pure non-clipped wave with good amps wink.gif

Maybe it's semantics. I don't think that the actual clipping is the cause of the damage but rather the energy that is resulted from it. I.e. a single ripple in a pond won't cause it to overflow but properly timed ripples that combine into a large wave would cause the pond to overflow. I think that in your Sansui receiver scenario, while it was only rated at so many watts doesn't mean it can't create a signal that is beyond the stated values.

To be clear, I don't push my (meager) equipment anywhere near it's limits, but this notion has always bothered me, mainly because it doesn't make much sense. In my mind (a convoluted place to be sure), a speaker is like a rubber band, why should vibrations cause it to blow out? The only thing beyond a faulty speaker due to wear or age would be to push or pull it beyond it's intended limits.

Maybe this is a grander discussion that shouldn't be held here in this thread. It just piqued my interest and I couldn't help but say something. PM me or lets start another thread...
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post #365 of 3201 Old 08-10-2013, 02:07 AM
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One question regarding Yamaha Presence channels - can they be re-configured to like DSX? E.g front width and height. And does the use of presence channels depend on DSP modes??
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post #366 of 3201 Old 08-10-2013, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

1. you shouldn't have to guesstimate wink.gif

"it doesn't actually list the power output in a clear manner "

I think the word obfuscation is appropriate: "the hiding of intended meaning in communication, making communication confusing, wilfully ambiguous, and harder to interpret"

Yamaha isn't the only one doing similar things. I see Marantz has one power spec on their 8077 amp, of 210 w for 1 channel at 1Khz & 10% distortion. Too bad - I was going to use them as an example of a AVR company doing it right redface.gif

Marantz is also guilty, just not quite as guilty as Yamaha with half dozen different ratings and a whopper of a power spec meant to impress not inform. maybe they are too embarrassed to publish the actual power supply size wink.gif

let's put it this way...in the AVR world, this kind of practice is "accepted" by some companies in a competitive world. but I still believe the vast majority of dedicated amp mfg's wouldn't be doing this. Yamaha used receiver amp mentality in a separates market & the 2 aren't the same.

for anyone looking at separates, putting your money into good amps is an important choice. otherwise, why even bother? to me, inflating or giving multitude of confusing power ratings just makes that brand less desirable to an informed & serious amp buyer.

IOW, Yamaha (& Marantz) are actually hurting themselves selling excellent, hi-end prepros along with amps with inflated, misleading specs.

if Yamaha wants to sell an 11 ch amp good enough for the separates market, they should have put in the transformer and capacitance to make it worthy, not wimp out on a flagship receiver grade amp rolleyes.gif

all I can say is - I would never buy this amp even if I owned the CX-A5000

too many really good alternatives that will far outperform it and not cost an outrageous amt, as long as you don't want a Krell, Theta, etc eek.gif for someone with more $$, you can find used & highly respected Parasound Halo A51's for ~$2500, get 2 and a cheap mid-range 2 ch amp from Emotiva for $300 and not need anything else for a very long time. an A51 has a 2.2 or 2.4KVA transformer, not some receiver sized 850 VA trannie tongue.gif at that power output, what's the point of this $3K amp? might as well buy the receiver version! rolleyes.gif

I'm not in the Emo fanclub, but with $3000, I can put a nice down-payment on 2-5 ch XPR-5 amps that will blow the Yamaha away & get their cheap 100 UPA-200 125 wpc for the heights/presence. total cost - $4377

or the 7 ch Outlaw 7900 monster (7 X 350 w @ 8 ohms) + 1 Emo XPA-5. total cost - $4498

and there are other lower cost combinations since the presence & rear channels won't need the power.

or keep that older AVR you aren't going to get much for on Ebay & use it for heights and rears.

the point is - there are many alternatives that will provide far more than your "65 wpc all channels driven" & yet not break the bank.

David, come on, be honest, even at $3000 price point, that's pitiful power for an amp meant for the separates market.

Don't get me wrong, I wholeheartedly agree with you. I think the asking price, the attempt of hiding the truth are bad. Furthermore, Yamaha Canada even attempted to shut me up about the power rating (hence my earlier post about it).

However, my post is just talking about the reality that 65 wpc is actually enough power for a small room. Of course, back to my previous statement several pages back, the price vs the wattage you get for the price is just insane.

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post #367 of 3201 Old 08-10-2013, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Webmonkey View Post

One question regarding Yamaha Presence channels - can they be re-configured to like DSX? E.g front width and height. And does the use of presence channels depend on DSP modes??

No they can't.

Yamaha presence are only for front height presence and rear height presence. All DSP mode use the front presence, some DSP mode use front and rear presence (but these include movie DSP modes such as Spectacle).
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post #368 of 3201 Old 08-10-2013, 04:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

No they can't.

Yamaha presence are only for front height presence and rear height presence. All DSP mode use the front presence, some DSP mode use front and rear presence (but these include movie DSP modes such as Spectacle).

Thanks!

Did anyone compare this to DSX? I mean soundwise for movies. Especially when it comes to involving the listener in the "bubble" and controlling panning of effects.
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post #369 of 3201 Old 08-10-2013, 05:10 AM
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I have, and I still prefer Yamaha DSP over DSX.

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post #370 of 3201 Old 08-10-2013, 07:10 AM
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For what reason? :-)
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post #371 of 3201 Old 08-10-2013, 08:58 AM
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Yamaha DSP adds spaciousness to the entire soundfield whereas DSX only adds spaciousness in the front imaging.

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post #372 of 3201 Old 08-10-2013, 09:21 AM
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Hey folks, ran across my only issue with my cx-a5000, it seems that there is no way to assign the xlr inputs as an audio choice to use when utilizing an hdmi input. This is not an issue as I can run the second hdmi output from my oppo direct to my tv and just select audio 4 on the Yamaha. But being able to assign the xlr to an hdmi input would have been easier though.

Still lovin the unit though with everything being as seem less as I had hoped coming from the rx-a3010.smile.gif

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post #373 of 3201 Old 08-10-2013, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by smitty8451 View Post

Hey folks, ran across my only issue with my cx-a5000, it seems that there is no way to assign the xlr inputs as an audio choice to use when utilizing an hdmi input. This is not an issue as I can run the second hdmi output from my oppo direct to my tv and just select audio 4 on the Yamaha. But being able to assign the xlr to an hdmi input would have been easier though.

Still lovin the unit though with everything being as seem less as I had hoped coming from the rx-a3010.smile.gif

That sounds bad.
Does that mean you cannot use the BDP-105 analog outs with and view its HDMI video?

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That doesn't make sense....
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post #375 of 3201 Old 08-10-2013, 05:53 PM
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Hoping to get some feedback about an odd problem I am having. I started out with the 2030 and upgraded to the 3030. Both units have exhibited the same issue. I have an HDMI cable running from the ARC on TV to ARC on receiver. I have a TIVO DVR hooked via HDMI to AV2 and a Pioneer Bluray hooked via HDMI to AV1. FM antenna hooked up. I am running the unit with 2 front speakers, center speaker, pair of surround speakers and a subwoofer. Here is my problem and it is intermittent. I will be watching TV and switch to the tuner. No sound at all. The radio station is tuned and most stations are HD. I flip through the different stations and get no sound. The display shows all the speakers are on and I have made sure the sound isn't muted. If I turn the receiver off and back on then the sound works on the tuner. I have verified that I get sound with all other devices including the net radio stations and have done so when the tuner isn't producing any sound. The strange thing is that both the 2030 and 3030 do the same thing. I spoke with Yamaha tech support level 2 and they insist that something in my environment is causing the problem and causing the signal to drop. I would believe this however the stations indicate thy are tuned. At first they thought the 2030 was defective so they suggested switching it out and I did so for the 3030. I can't believe that 2 receivers are defective. I am using the current firmware 122. I think maybe there is an issue with the firmware but Yamaha insists that isn't the problem. I love the receiver but if I can't figure out the issue I may have to switch to a different brand. Anyone have any ideas as to what might be causing this issue?
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post #376 of 3201 Old 08-10-2013, 09:38 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^ A couple of thoughts.

Since you must be running with HDMI control on to use ARC, might I suggest tuning off HDMI control and not using the ARC input on your display (use HDMI 1 instead of 2 on the TV for the Yamaha.)

You can use an optical cable for sound if you need to get OTA audio.

See if that helps.... I know that using ARC on my tv (with a soundbar in my living room) can cause all sorts of issues with sound drop outs, etc.
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post #377 of 3201 Old 08-10-2013, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

That sounds bad.
Does that mean you cannot use the BDP-105 analog outs with and view its HDMI video?

- Rich[/quoteA

You can, but you will have to use the RCA output on the oppo and assign that as the sound source (analog) for whatever hdmi you use with the oppo. This seems to be only an issue with the xlr in jacks on the Yamaha at the moment (hopping a future firmware update will resolve this issue). RCA assignment works fine BTY.

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post #378 of 3201 Old 08-11-2013, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Yamaha DSP adds spaciousness to the entire soundfield whereas DSX only adds spaciousness in the front imaging.

Good point.

which DSP program uses all 11 ch???
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post #379 of 3201 Old 08-11-2013, 02:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Yamaha DSP adds spaciousness to the entire soundfield whereas DSX only adds spaciousness in the front imaging.

Good point.

which DSP program uses all 11 ch???
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post #380 of 3201 Old 08-11-2013, 08:33 AM
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IMHO, the best thing about DSP programs is that you do not have to use them tongue.gif

The inclusion of the ESS DACs and perhaps requisite attention paid to the output stages make this unit interesting.
I am still trying to wrap my head around the exclusion of XLR connections for Subs.
These are the longest runs in most systems. What?

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post #381 of 3201 Old 08-11-2013, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Webmonkey View Post

Good point.

which DSP program uses all 11 ch???

All the Cinema DSP HD3 programmes use all 11 speakers.

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post #382 of 3201 Old 08-11-2013, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

IMHO, the best thing about DSP programs is that you do not have to use them tongue.gif

The inclusion of the ESS DACs and perhaps requisite attention paid to the output stages make this unit interesting.
I am still trying to wrap my head around the exclusion of XLR connections for Subs.
These are the longest runs in most systems. What?

- Rich

Rich. I'm as much of a purist as anyone regarding pure playback of film soundtracks obviously.

However in my listening so far I have tried some of the film programs and they are fairly impressive. Since you can adjust all of the parameters you can season to taste.

Regarding the sub connection.

While we don't know why they eschewed it, keeping a common platform to reduce coats might have factored in.

Regardless, is it really an issue? XLR noise rejection benefits aren't really doing to benefit a sub feed. IMO, any issues that crop up in the limited frequency audio carried to a sub will be endemic of other things, not the lack of an XLR connection.

I'm not trying to excuse every decision that Yamaha has done with a "flagship" product that they are charging a premium for. I'm not sure that the price differential justifies the feature set.

The same could be said for the Marantz 7008 and 8801.

Almost identical feature set. Similar hardware.

I agree with most that the MX amp is really a misfire.

Of course I'd like to see XLR connectors for all channels.

But is it going to degrade the performance of the audio or cause audible artifacts for 99% of users? I think not.

Since the pre amp isn't fully balanced I think there would be no harm in using an XLR cable with RCA adaptors on both ends for those with long runs.

Just my .02.
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post #383 of 3201 Old 08-11-2013, 11:17 AM
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I agree with FilmMixer. Having owned recording studios in my previous life, XLR for short run and home use is virtually unimportant. Besides, neither the CX nor the MX are truly balanced units.

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post #384 of 3201 Old 08-11-2013, 11:22 AM
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Hi Folks,

I have been happily using a RX Z11 since it came out in 2008.
Of course, the announcement of Yamaha finally releasing separates whet my appetite.

I have seen many users here not happy with the Amp, but the Pre has raised a lot of interest.

I was willing to buy both units but now Im a little skeptical... so a new idea came into mind.

How does it sound to just get the Pre and use the Z11 as an amp?
Does it make sense?

What do experienced users recommend?

Thx,
jg
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post #385 of 3201 Old 08-11-2013, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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^^. Jg.

How many channels are you running? How big is your room?

If you were prepared to buy both I would do as other suggested and buy the pre and 2 amps to get to 11 channels if needed. Of course you need the room for two amps.

I just don't think from a usability standpoint it's a wise idea to use an AVR solely as an amp. Gain structure, etc.

I have a fairly big room. 22 x 16. The 3030 fills it well above comfort at no louder than -12... If you need 11 channels of amplification you know what the options are. For less than that I think the 3030 is a viable replacement for the Z11 (which I owned and had in the same room.).

So many other things have changed that you need to open your self to the idea that all of the other incremental improvements in these AVRs will match the sonic performance if the Z11. Even in a much lighter, and smaller, chassis.

Returning to your original thought. I'd go for the pre amp and 2 separate amps..
Since you were open to keeping the Z11 you have the space available.

Or consider the 3030.
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post #386 of 3201 Old 08-11-2013, 12:05 PM
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I'd recommend the 3030 and get at 2-ch amp for the rear presence (you only need something like Dayton T-amp at approx $130 shipped).

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post #387 of 3201 Old 08-11-2013, 01:32 PM
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I had some speaker hum using the RCAs from my Marantz AV8801 to the Parasound A51.
Most provide XLRS for the sub even with RCAs for all other channels.

It is just not high end.

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post #388 of 3201 Old 08-11-2013, 01:54 PM
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What is the distance and which cable do you use? Kimber is notorious for hum at any distance longer than 6ft.

I've used Dollar Tree RCA cables upwards to 8ft with zero hum. Of course if you have lots of EMI/RFI in your area, cables with better insulation such as QED entry level Audio One will help.

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post #389 of 3201 Old 08-11-2013, 01:55 PM
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PS: I only use 23ft RG6 cable with RCA termination for various cases with no hum whatsoever.

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post #390 of 3201 Old 08-11-2013, 02:28 PM
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I ha
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

What is the distance and which cable do you use? Kimber is notorious for hum at any distance longer than 6ft.

I've used Dollar Tree RCA cables upwards to 8ft with zero hum. Of course if you have lots of EMI/RFI in your area, cables with better insulation such as QED entry level Audio One will help.

I have monster that I bought years ago.
My point is that many are upgrading their preamps and do not want to re-cable.

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