The "Official" Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A1030, RX-A2030, RX-A3030 and CX-A5000/MX-A5000 Thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 2870 Old 08-19-2013, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I saw some complaints about the MX-A5000's power rating and price. I was thinking, yes, at 4k, it's overpriced. But at a discounted price, maybe not.

First off, I would never expect the power supply to have to cope with every channel hitting peak voltage at that same time. Not even close. It's probably closer to 150 watts / channel in real world operation than it would appear. The presence channels, for example, may not demand much power at all on average.

The ACD debate will continue ad nauseum, as will the complaints about how amps are rated. But the bottom line is whether a given amp will give enough power. And I think, for most people the MX-A5000 would give them all the power they need. I certainly thought adding amps to my Z7 was overkill and I still do ( I did it though, so I could find out for myself.) In other words, the Z7 probably has enough power for most people and most rooms and it's power supply surely is not as powerful as the one in the MX-A5000.

The MSRP price is too high, I understand, for many. But if there was a discount, it looks better. After all it's an 11 channel amp in one box, with XLR inputs.

Not everyone needs the 11 channels. But some can use them, for presence or multi-zone. And some people will appreciate a 60 pound amp over 100 pound amp. And some people will appreciate one box vs. multiple boxes and pay the premium.

you are making the argument that I guess Yamaha( and others) made when they started to rate their units with only two channels driven......and having some pretty weak ratings with ACD

That being said...I guess I am more accustomed to the typical way amps are rated..ACD

I used to own a Z7...a couple of observations
It has a far better amp section than the A3000 did( I am not sure yamaha has improved this in newer models?)
It has no where the amp section of my 5 channel( 200x5 ACD) separate amp

My 5 channel amp weighs 85lbs( Sherbourn 5/1500A)

I agree with you...the MSRP of this yamaha amp...based on its specs...is at least 2x what it should be

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post #452 of 2870 Old 08-19-2013, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

you are making the argument that I guess Yamaha( and others) made when they started to rate their units with only two channels driven......and having some pretty weak ratings with ACD

That being said...I guess I am more accustomed to the typical way amps are rated..ACD

I used to own a Z7...a couple of observations
It has a far better amp section than the A3000 did( I am not sure yamaha has improved this in newer models?)
It has no where the amp section of my 5 channel( 200x5 ACD) separate amp

My 5 channel amp weighs 85lbs( Sherbourn 5/1500A)

I agree with you...the MSRP of this yamaha amp...based on its specs...is at least 2x what it should be

Warren

I won't join the argument regarding ACD being a valid measurement or specification for the majority of folks, but I will point out that an 11 channel amp capable of providing ACD of 140 watts would require multiple 120V 15A circuits (perhaps a 240V 20A circuit might do). My 7ch Outlaw Audio 7900 is 300 watts ACD, but requires two separate 120v circuits (and weighs 150 lbs). They'd probably need something on the order of that to achieve 11ch of 140 watts w/ACD. They probably wouldn't sell very many if they did that would be my guess.
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post #453 of 2870 Old 08-19-2013, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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^^^. Isn't the MX just a reconfiguration of the Z11 in terms of amps? It's the same chassis, and that AVR got plenty of high marks for its amp performance.

For those users where that amount of power sufficed this is a good solution. (I agree it's over priced at MSRP however.)

But to say its 2x as much as it should be isn't fair as you've never heard it. If you only buy on specs there are many other examples of way more overpriced gear.

Since you can easily find it at 2100 street you are saying it should only be 1050.....

The Z11 was 5 times that. Granted at the time it was truly unique with little competition and of course time has changed the price vs. performance dynamic.

In my 22 x 16 room, I can tell the difference between AVR"s.

And I've had separates over the years as well.

While there have been differences, I've yet to find a flagship product that wasn't really competent in the amp section, and I owned the Z11 and Z7.

The MX would be prefect for my room.... As I suspect it would be for a lot of users.

At a street of around 4200 I would think the pair worthy for those needing a 9 or 11 channel solution.... While you can surely get more power with Emotive or Outlaw for the same or slightly lower price, a one unit amp would be my only option, and it might be for many others as well.
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post #454 of 2870 Old 08-19-2013, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

^^^. Isn't the MX just a reconfiguration of the Z11 in terms of amps? It's the same chassis, and that AVR got plenty of high marks for its amp performance.

...

The MX would be prefect for my room.... As I suspect it would be for a lot of users.

At a street of around 4200 I would think the pair worthy for those needing a 9 or 11 channel solution.... While you can surely get more power with Emotive or Outlaw for the same or slightly lower price, a one unit amp would be my only option, and it might be for many others as well.

The Z11 is spec'd at RMS Power Output (20Hz - 20kHz) of 140w x 7 and 50w x 4 and a Total Power (20Hz - 20kHz) of 1180w (presumably at 8 ohms). The MX-A5000 is spec'd at 150w (20Hz - 20kHz) with 2ch driven (plus several other specification points). So I find it hard to tell if they are the same configuration or not.

I agree that for a 9 or (especially) 11 channel solution I find it rather attractive. Since I wasn't in the market to replace my amps I didn't consider it.

As for MSRP being too high, all I can say is that I'm not surprised by their values. If you assume that these two units are thought to be flagship replacements for the Z11, then their combined price of $6000USD sounds about as expected to me (the Z11 was $5500USD). If you are basing that on perceived value then you've lost me. I don't know how to quantify that. I've seen no reviews and I doubt the specs alone tell a complete story.
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post #455 of 2870 Old 08-19-2013, 02:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Regarding the price, I did confuse the issue with street vs MSRP.

I will post a PDF that gave more details about the MX. I believe it was from the announcement in Japan but definitely describes the build of the products in more detail. I'll find it later when I'm at home. smile.gif
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post #456 of 2870 Old 08-20-2013, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwillcox View Post

The Z11 is spec'd at RMS Power Output (20Hz - 20kHz) of 140w x 7 and 50w x 4 and a Total Power (20Hz - 20kHz) of 1180w (presumably at 8 ohms). The MX-A5000 is spec'd at 150w (20Hz - 20kHz) with 2ch driven (plus several other specification points). So I find it hard to tell if they are the same configuration or not.

I agree that for a 9 or (especially) 11 channel solution I find it rather attractive. Since I wasn't in the market to replace my amps I didn't consider it.

As for MSRP being too high, all I can say is that I'm not surprised by their values. If you assume that these two units are thought to be flagship replacements for the Z11, then their combined price of $6000USD sounds about as expected to me (the Z11 was $5500USD). If you are basing that on perceived value then you've lost me. I don't know how to quantify that. I've seen no reviews and I doubt the specs alone tell a complete story.

were those specs on the Z11 ACD?

On another note...I recall the Z11 selling for about half that price...but maybe I just saw some "deals" near the end of its life
I haven't seen these latest Yamaha flagships...but I somehow doubt they will have the build quality of the Z11

The flagship products ...from that period....from any of the Asian manufacturers had stellar build quality
They were like tanks...and some weighed nearly as much as one

I did a little "in home shoot-out" a few years ago...comparing a few receivers I had at the time. I used some very hard to drive 4 ohm speakers I had and played them at reference levels with each of the receivers

In order of performance

Pioneer Elite VSX47TX>Onkyo 875>Yamaha Z7>Denon 4310
The Denon clipped and went into protect mode...the Z7 got very warm...the Onkyo got very hot and the Pioneer elite was just slightly warm

I didnt have the A3000 at the time...but I dont think it would have performed as well as the Z7 based on its performance( amp wise) beside the 875


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post #457 of 2870 Old 08-20-2013, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

were those specs on the Z11 ACD?

On another note...I recall the Z11 selling for about half that price...but maybe I just saw some "deals" near the end of its life
I haven't seen these latest Yamaha flagships...but I somehow doubt they will have the build quality of the Z11

The flagship products ...from that period....from any of the Asian manufacturers had stellar build quality
They were like tanks...and some weighed nearly as much as one

I did a little "in home shoot-out" a few years ago...comparing a few receivers I had at the time. I used some very hard to drive 4 ohm speakers I had and played them at reference levels with each of the receivers

In order of performance

Pioneer Elite VSX47TX>Onkyo 875>Yamaha Z7>Denon 4310
The Denon clipped and went into protect mode...the Z7 got very warm...the Onkyo got very hot and the Pioneer elite was just slightly warm

I didnt have the A3000 at the time...but I dont think it would have performed as well as the Z7 based on its performance( amp wise) beside the 875


Warren

They don't say in the Z11 specs how many channels are driven, but I doubt that it was ACD. Yamaha began specifying the number of channels driven more recently in their specifications (they didn't do it during the Z11 era).

I haven't seen the MX-A5000 but I'd say that my new CX-A5000's build quality matches that of my Z11s. It's not as heavy, but then it doesn't need the hefty power supply since it has no power amps.

When I purchased my first Z11 (when initially released) they were selling in the $4000 - $4500 range. When I bought the 2nd one it was during their fire sale a few of years later and they were then selling in the $2000 range (and newegg.com ran a number of Saturday only specials for even less).
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post #458 of 2870 Old 08-21-2013, 03:26 PM
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Can someone who has one of the models, preferably the 2030 or 3030 tell me how loud the relay switching is? My current receiver is driving one of my dogs crazy. I think because it sounds similar to when we have a power outage during a storm. I am wondering if these might be more quiet by any chance. Also, do you hear them as you change from say listening to FLAC files on a hard drive and then going to say a Bluray movie (I'm using a Sony 5100). Basically changing form stereo to surround modes.

Also, can you feed these receivers DSD (SACD) files from a Player like the Sony 5100 or perhaps and Oppo 103 or 105?

Thanks!
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post #459 of 2870 Old 08-21-2013, 03:38 PM
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I currently have the 3030 for review and just bought a Sony 5100. What relay switching are you referring to? I do my review with my Maltese-Poodle puppy and she doesn't seem to be bothered with anything.

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post #460 of 2870 Old 08-21-2013, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottcocoabeach View Post

Can someone who has one of the models, preferably the 2030 or 3030 tell me how loud the relay switching is? My current receiver is driving one of my dogs crazy. I think because it sounds similar to when we have a power outage during a storm. I am wondering if these might be more quiet by any chance. Also, do you hear them as you change from say listening to FLAC files on a hard drive and then going to say a Bluray movie (I'm using a Sony 5100). Basically changing form stereo to surround modes.

Also, can you feed these receivers DSD (SACD) files from a Player like the Sony 5100 or perhaps and Oppo 103 or 105?

Thanks!

I have the CX-A5000 and the relay switching is very quite, also it does do DSD via HDMI (It's in the manual on the spec pages at the very end of the document). I have an Oppo BDP-95 and verified DSD decoding is active through with my unit.biggrin.gif

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post #461 of 2870 Old 08-21-2013, 04:33 PM
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Without any speaker outputs the CX-A5000 has significantly fewer relays than the RX-A2030 or RX-A3030, so it's going to sound noticibly quieter.
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post #462 of 2870 Old 08-21-2013, 05:05 PM
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Thanks I have the Denon X4000 now which I really like, especially for the money. When the unit powers on there are a significant number of fairly loud clicking noises, but then as you switch inputs or even when the source material changes, for example just fast forwarding during commercials their is relay noise. It sounds like clicks and is quite audible when standing by the unit. Not all that loud when pausing and starting the DVR but loud enough to be heard a few feet away even with a loud AC running, and I can hear it from 12 feet away when the AC isn't running. I have large dogs (Native American Indian Dogs) and one can be two feet away and is not fazed at all by the noise, the other can be down a short hallway and resting in a bedroom and it's enough to freak her our. Especially when turning the system on, but even if I get her calmed down the continued sounds of the relays keeps her unsettled. It's also upsetting my wife so if the Yamaha 2030 or 3030 is quieter I might make a switch to keep harmony in my house smile.gif

I'm going to download the manual for the 3030, but can you tell me if it does DSD (SACD) if you've tried it.

Thanks,
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post #463 of 2870 Old 08-21-2013, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottcocoabeach View Post

When the unit powers on there are a significant number of fairly loud clicking noises, but then as you switch inputs or even when the source material changes, for example just fast forwarding during commercials their is relay noise.

 

You can often prevent this by simply setting a default sound mode for the input. One that matches the mode you listen with... that way it won't switch modes when it loses audio or changes inputs.

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post #464 of 2870 Old 08-21-2013, 06:02 PM
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You can often prevent this by simply setting a default sound mode for the input. One that matches the mode you listen with... that way it won't switch modes when it loses audio or changes inputs.

Yes my Onkyo worked like that, it stayed in whatever mode I had it in unless I switched it. The Denon seems to switch on it's own and then I can override it from there to switch modes if I want, but I can't lock in a particular mode. For example if I have my Bluray player on (Sony 5100) and play a flac file it will switch to stereo mode, then if I put in a bluray disc it will switch modes a bunch of times as it goes through previews, etc. on it's way to the menu and then once starting the movie it may change modes with the studio logo portion before the actual movie starts. It changes quite a lot of times on it's own and I don't think there is any way to prevent that on this receiver. If the Yamaha behaves differently then that could be a huge help to me. My wife is pretty upset at this point so I am pretty sure I am going to have to return the Denon. I just need to find a suitable replacement.

Thanks for the help on this.
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post #465 of 2870 Old 08-21-2013, 06:43 PM
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Unless it's changed in this year's models Yamaha receivers don't normally click when swiching DSP modes. The exceptions would be when activating or deactivating Pure Direct mode and when it dynamically reassigns the amplifiers to drive the presence speakers or zone speakers. (In other words when you have more than 9 speakers connected directly to the reciever.)

One note, being able to receive DSD over HDMI doesn't mean much. In order to do any DSP processing on a DSD steam a receiver has to decode it to PCM first. Unless you use something like Pure Direct to disable all DSP procoessing, including bass management and room correction, you're not getting any benefit by sending DSD to the receiver. And in Yamaha's case they don't actually say anywhere Pure Direct passes DSD direct to the DACs, so even then it might not make any difference if the player sends DSD or decodes it to PCM first.
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post #466 of 2870 Old 08-21-2013, 07:09 PM
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Ross,

Thanks for the information. If these receivers don't have all the clicks from the relays going off all the time like on the Denon then this might be the answer for me. I really like the Denon and the XT32 but I have had good experiences with Yamaha in the past. I wish the price points were closer but I may just have to spend the extra to keep everyone at home happy. If anyone else who has the newer models can verify no clicks when switching between the various sounds modes, stereo, surround, etc (except for pure direct which I understand) then that would really help me out. Thanks!

As far as the DSD portion as long as I can play SACD's it's fine for me. It would be nice if it could handle DSD files from a USB drive but the user manual says it only handles 1 or 2 channel files. Spotify support would also be nice but I think I can add a Roku stick to the MHL port and pick up this functionality?
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post #467 of 2870 Old 08-21-2013, 07:58 PM
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Only the front HDMI port, which is normally hidden by a door, is an MHL port. You'd probably be better of getting a regular Roku or other streaming box and connecting it at the back.
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post #468 of 2870 Old 08-22-2013, 03:39 AM
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Did anyone measure the temperature on the HDMI board just like in the Marantz AV8801 thread yet?
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post #469 of 2870 Old 08-22-2013, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottcocoabeach View Post

Ross,

Thanks for the information. If these receivers don't have all the clicks from the relays going off all the time like on the Denon then this might be the answer for me. I really like the Denon and the XT32 but I have had good experiences with Yamaha in the past. I wish the price points were closer but I may just have to spend the extra to keep everyone at home happy. If anyone else who has the newer models can verify no clicks when switching between the various sounds modes, stereo, surround, etc (except for pure direct which I understand) then that would really help me out. Thanks!

As far as the DSD portion as long as I can play SACD's it's fine for me. It would be nice if it could handle DSD files from a USB drive but the user manual says it only handles 1 or 2 channel files. Spotify support would also be nice but I think I can add a Roku stick to the MHL port and pick up this functionality?

I have a 3020 and the only clicks I hear are when you turn it on or off. It also does DSD. Regarding $ you should be able to find a 3020 at close out prices. Someone else can chime in as to whether there are any significant differences vs. the 3030.
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post #470 of 2870 Old 08-22-2013, 05:25 AM
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Did anyone measure the temperature on the HDMI board just like in the Marantz AV8801 thread yet?

I can honestly say that with my CX-A5000 that after a watching "Lincoln", "42", and "Olympus Has Fallen" back to back at pretty loud levels last weekend the unit was barely warm to the touch. I don't have a way of measuring the temp but in my experience with other units I've owned, this unit absolutely runs cooler than any others. Lots of space around the unit and open style stands are the key to keeping any electronic devices temps down (see my avatar pic).

This is one of the few pre-amps that I have owned were I am not even a little worried about temperatures affecting its operation or longevity at this time. Peace of mind is well worth the money spent to acquire this unit.smile.gif
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post #471 of 2870 Old 08-22-2013, 07:20 AM
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That is good to know. When the CX-A5000 was announced I inquired about power draw and bypass of the video processing. Was told 80 watts (compared to about 140 watts for my 80.3 which gets hot around the video cards) and video can be bypassed but not turned off. I believe the AV8801 is supposed to 90 watts but there are many reports of it getting hot.

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post #472 of 2870 Old 08-22-2013, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

That is good to know. When the CX-A5000 was announced I inquired about power draw and bypass of the video processing. Was told 80 watts (compared to about 140 watts for my 80.3 which gets hot around the video cards) and video can be bypassed but not turned off. I believe the AV8801 is supposed to 90 watts but there are many reports of it getting hot.

If you are referring to video processing thorugh the CX-A5000, you can turn it off in the system settings. I have the following settings set on mine which may affect how warm my unit gets so YMMV.

Video Precessing - OFF (Direct)
Dynamic Range - MAX
Network standbye - ON
HDMI Standbye Passthrough - ON
Adaptatvie DSP Level - OFF
VPS - ON
HDMI Control - OFF
ARC - OFF

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post #473 of 2870 Old 08-22-2013, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty8451 View Post

If you are referring to video processing thorugh the CX-A5000, you can turn it off in the system settings. I have the following settings set on mine which may affect how warm my unit gets so YMMV.

Video Precessing - OFF (Direct)
Dynamic Range - MAX
Network standbye - ON
HDMI Standbye Passthrough - ON
Adaptatvie DSP Level - OFF
VPS - ON
HDMI Control - OFF
ARC - OFF

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I was told by Yamaha that you could bypass the video processing but not turn it off. Yamaha USA had to wait for a response from Japan to answer.

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post #474 of 2870 Old 08-22-2013, 11:01 AM
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The video processing chip also handles the OSD overlays so it always needs to be in circuit and powered.
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post #475 of 2870 Old 08-22-2013, 11:31 AM
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In that case I am even more impressed as to how cool this preamp stays during use.
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post #476 of 2870 Old 08-23-2013, 01:09 AM
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Any of you non-US guys also experience that in your country, the power amp is priced higher than the pre-amp????
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post #477 of 2870 Old 08-23-2013, 05:05 AM
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is the video up conversion in the 3030 as good or better than the 3020?

thanks
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post #478 of 2870 Old 08-23-2013, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwillcox View Post

They don't say in the Z11 specs how many channels are driven, but I doubt that it was ACD. Yamaha began specifying the number of channels driven more recently in their specifications (they didn't do it during the Z11 era).

I haven't seen the MX-A5000 but I'd say that my new CX-A5000's build quality matches that of my Z11s. It's not as heavy, but then it doesn't need the hefty power supply since it has no power amps.

When I purchased my first Z11 (when initially released) they were selling in the $4000 - $4500 range. When I bought the 2nd one it was during their fire sale a few of years later and they were then selling in the $2000 range (and newegg.com ran a number of Saturday only specials for even less).

I googled a test of the Z-11

" With five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads, the AVR reaches 0.1% distortion at 153.2 watts and 1% distortion at 183.1 watts. With seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads, it reaches 0.1% distortion at 139.4 watts and 1% distortion at 160.4 watts.

The RX-Z11 reached the manufacturer’s stated distortion of 0.04 % at 131.1 watts (5 channels driven into 8-ohm loads). This is fairly close to Yamaha's spec of 140Wpc x 7 into 8 ohms. "


I doubt very seriously the new multichannel amp could hit these specs

On another note...I do remember the newegg pricing on these and that was the $$ amount coming to mind


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post #479 of 2870 Old 08-23-2013, 06:34 PM
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is it rated at 1 kHz or full-spectrum? I doubt that wattage is rated at full-spectrum.

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post #480 of 2870 Old 08-24-2013, 02:39 PM
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Is the CX-A5000 using a Euro or US XLR layout????
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Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

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