The "Official" Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A1030, RX-A2030, RX-A3030 and CX-A5000/MX-A5000 Thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #631 of 2949 Old 10-11-2013, 05:08 AM
Advanced Member
 
TKO1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada's capital city.
Posts: 554
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post

Whathifi has a review of the A3030!
you can find the review here. FWIW this is another example of bizarre audio reviewing with nothing tangible to back up some of the claims:
Quote:
In taking that eager-to-please approach, Yamaha does sacrifice outright tonal neutrality and a touch of precision. While not lacking in agility, low frequencies are quite chunky. Slightly tauter bass with more definite edges would have delivered a better-punctuated impact. That’s our only quibble, though.
Quote:
As with any home cinema amplifier from any manufacturer, the Yamaha RX-A3030 isn’t quite as skilled when it comes to music. The muscle and power behind the amp (150W per 8 ohms) is the driving force behind an upbeat and dynamic sound, but it isn’t as cohesive and musical as a dedicated stereo amplifier.
Quote:
Some users might want more tonal faithfulness, but we’d happily accept the trade off in favour of a fun and immersive home cinema experience.

So they are basically saying a product they rate at 5 stars can't accurately reproduce the frequency range it is supposed to and a dedicated stereo amplifier would be better for music.

Gee, and they wonder why they are losing their customer base.


Cheers.

Tony
TKO1 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #632 of 2949 Old 10-12-2013, 09:18 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Espo77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Delmarva Peninsula, Maryland
Posts: 1,970
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
I have two Pre-Pro's and one stereo Pre-Amp to sell before I can move on, but I have a question about the CX-A5000. Hooking up HDMI "out" of a Blu-Ray Player and a Directv HD set top box, to the "in" on the Yamaha...then HDMI out of the Yamaha to the "in" on the TV...there will be times that I don't want to turn on the full surround system. So will the HDMI signal pass through the Yamaha to the TV without turning on the Processor?

Espo77
Espo77 is offline  
post #633 of 2949 Old 10-12-2013, 09:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
David Susilo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Markham, Canada
Posts: 9,403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 143 Post(s)
Liked: 328
You will need to activate HDMI pass-thru on the CX to "on" to do that.

follow my A/V tweets @davidsusilo

ISF, THX, CEDIA, Control4 & HAA certified
Reviewer for TED, QAV, AUVI & DownUnder Audio Magazine

my (yet to be completed) BD list
my home theatre

David Susilo is online now  
post #634 of 2949 Old 10-12-2013, 10:24 AM
Senior Member
 
smitty8451's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 241
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Espo77 View Post

I have two Pre-Pro's and one stereo Pre-Amp to sell before I can move on, but I have a question about the CX-A5000. Hooking up HDMI "out" of a Blu-Ray Player and a Directv HD set top box, to the "in" on the Yamaha...then HDMI out of the Yamaha to the "in" on the TV...there will be times that I don't want to turn on the full surround system. So will the HDMI signal pass through the Yamaha to the TV without turning on the Processor?

Yes it will, that is one of the main reasons I purchased this unit. I got mine on Aug 2nd (pre-order) and could not be happier with the unit.

Yamaha CX-A5000, ATI AT 2007 Amp (7X200W), ATI AT 2004 Amp (4X200W)
Klipsch RF 63's - Main, RB 61's - Front heights, RC-62 - Center, RS-62's - Surround, RS-52's - Rear Surround
2 Rythmik DS-1510 DIY Subwoofers (With PEQ600XLR3 Amp) each connected with Antimode 8033S-II
smitty8451 is offline  
post #635 of 2949 Old 10-12-2013, 11:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Espo77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Delmarva Peninsula, Maryland
Posts: 1,970
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Thanks guys. The more I read about the CX-A5000 the more interested I get, and it looks so nice:)

Espo77
Espo77 is offline  
post #636 of 2949 Old 10-12-2013, 11:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
David Susilo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Markham, Canada
Posts: 9,403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 143 Post(s)
Liked: 328
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty8451 View Post

Yes it will, that is one of the main reasons I purchased this unit. I got mine on Aug 2nd (pre-order) and could not be happier with the unit.

The HdMI pass through is available from any Japanese brand receivers such as Pioneer, Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo, Tascam. wink.gif

follow my A/V tweets @davidsusilo

ISF, THX, CEDIA, Control4 & HAA certified
Reviewer for TED, QAV, AUVI & DownUnder Audio Magazine

my (yet to be completed) BD list
my home theatre

David Susilo is online now  
post #637 of 2949 Old 10-12-2013, 12:47 PM
Senior Member
 
smitty8451's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 241
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 57
But I don't believe that all will let you change inputs while the unit stays in standbye mode, the Marantz 8801 cannot it has a setting to :)switch to a set input when going into standby mode or it stays on the one active when the unit is turned off. Ralph Potts verified this on the 8801 thread for me.smile.gif

Yamaha CX-A5000, ATI AT 2007 Amp (7X200W), ATI AT 2004 Amp (4X200W)
Klipsch RF 63's - Main, RB 61's - Front heights, RC-62 - Center, RS-62's - Surround, RS-52's - Rear Surround
2 Rythmik DS-1510 DIY Subwoofers (With PEQ600XLR3 Amp) each connected with Antimode 8033S-II
smitty8451 is offline  
post #638 of 2949 Old 10-12-2013, 04:49 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Bond 007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 11,842
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 110 Post(s)
Liked: 823
Thats right. Some receivers that have HDMI standby passthrough dont have HDMI switching while in standby.

No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!
Bond 007 is online now  
post #639 of 2949 Old 10-14-2013, 08:52 AM
Member
 
wiyosaya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 23
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post



The docs you found describe the newer YNCA protocol, which consists of simple command strings sent over a raw TCP connection (to port 50000 by default). It's the best one to use, but quite different from the YNC protocol used by the Yamaha app (which uses a much more complex XML format sent over an HTTP connection). So I wouldn't waste your time looking at what the Yamaha app is doing.

 


Thanks.

From the standpoint of being a programmer, the XML format may be easier to handle. There are lots of XML classes in various languages out there that may make formatting XML for the Aventage line less of a chore.

However, I intend to use a pre-canned remote control software if possible, and the XML facilities available in those programs may be limited. So, simple text strings sound like they would be the easiest given proper support for those strings in the remote software.
wiyosaya is offline  
post #640 of 2949 Old 10-14-2013, 01:32 PM
Advanced Member
 
TKO1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada's capital city.
Posts: 554
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 65
Everyone,

H/W my first impressions on the new CX-A5000 I picked up from my local Yamaha dealer on Saturday morning. Never got it setup until Sunday morning so have had limited hands on experience with it as of right now.

It replaced my Denon AVR-4311CI 9.2/11.2 receiver in my home theatre rack. Physically larger in size than the Denon, especially in height, I had to reconfigure what equipment I had in what rack in order to get it to the optimum location to ensure cable access with good air ventilation. Right now it sits in a rack between my Oppo BDP-105 (on the rack above) and a Marantz MM7055 power amplifier (on the rack below). System setup is in a 5.2 mode with two Paradigm Reference Seismic 110 subwoofers with Paradigm's Perfect Bass Kit (PBK).

Very nice piece of gear. Physically I love the spartan looks of it and it looks like a high quality piece of engineering. Front and back control pieces/inputs/outputs all nicely organised and solid. My unit is made in Malaysia FWIW. My son has been running it all day today playing XBox360 video games and it isn't even the slightest bit warm. Video processing is turned on with only the Main Zone on as well. Not sure if the other zones may affect the heat produced. 4 year warranty is pretty nice to and is a testament to how comfortable Yamaha is in their electronics.

IP setup was very simple and had it up and running within minutes on my private wireless Network. I have it plugged into an Ethernet wi-fi bridge along with the Oppo so am not using it in wi-fi mode.
---

Remote control management:

Logitech's Harmony remote database doesn't have anything for the CX-A5000 processor so I chose the RX-A3030 receiver which is pretty close in feature set. Was able to easily swap out the Denon with the CX-A5000 for all my current activities with the Harmony. Please note that these are not complex just your standard activities like Watch TV, Watch Apple TV, Watch a Blu-Ray etc. which is why they work without any issues using the RX-A3030 receiver settings. I have provided feedback to Logitech regarding the lack of remote control capability for the CX-A5000. Hopefully it will be added shortly.

Yamaha's iPad/iPod app works great with it. I downloaded and it worked flawlessly on the iPad 1st generation iOS which was very nice.

I hope to try it with Roomie Remote later to see how that works. I noticed that Roomie Remote has added the CX-A5000 to its list of IP control-capable devices.

I don't really care for the Yamaha remote as I find the lettering very small and I didn't find the backlighting switch until I researched it. It is a black protruding button on the black side of the remote control. It is very functional and powerful but I am pretty sure I will be putting it away and using Roomie Remote for controlling everything.

---

Current physical connections:

Oppo BDP-105 via two HDMI cables. Will be plugging in XLR cables later on to test the XLR output/input capability. Haven't yet tested SACD/DSD format over HDMI-2 yet from the Oppo. Cable is in place just haven't gotten around to trying it out as this weekend is the Canadian Thanksgiving long weekend and I have other family commitments/priorities wink.gif

Using BlueJeansCable LC-1 RCA cables between the CX-A5000 and the Marantz MM7055 power amplifier. Speakers are Revel Concerta F12s, C12 and M12s connected with Canare star-quad speaker cables for the fronts and centers and Monoprice 12AWG speaker cables for the surrounds. All connectors are Furez copper with spades (SP8-SB) on the speaker sides and banana plugs (TST-SB) on the amplifier. These are from www.avoutlet.com and are highly recommended if you build your own cables like I do.

Red-mere HDMI cables between all devices and the CX-A5000. All bought from monoprice.com.

Will be putting in XLR cables from the CX-A5000 to the Marantz MM7055 when I install the ones for the Oppo. I don't expect any difference here at all but it will be nice to give them a try. The specifications show an SNR of 112dB for both balanced and unbalanced connections.
---

Setup speakers, distance, channel levels, subwoofer configurations etc. was very easy. I basically copied the current settings that Audyssey used for distances and speaker levels with one exception, subwoofer distance. I modified the subwoofers' distance to be the existing physical distance. I set my subwoofer configuration to left and right configuration vice front and rear and vice mono as I have my subwoofers located between my plasma HDTV and my front left and right speakers. No YPAO yet nor any PEQ attempted. Just the default settings as described here.

Impressions of sound quality are excellent. In particular the surrounds in the video games, in watching sports yesterday and in a Blu-Ray (Star Trek Into Darkness), seem to be much more prevalent than the others I have had. Wasn't expecting anything too much in terms of differences between the Denon and the CX-A5000 so it caught me off guard a lot. Wasn't using any special processing either just straight TrueHD or Dolby Digital for the sports etc. Sound was very immersive and the soundstage was incredibly accurate. Hoping in the next few days to get a chance to try out some well-recorded CDs, DVD-As and SACDs to see how they compare to my impressions from the Denon and my other receivers (Anthem, Pioneer, Onkyo etc.). I am not one to be too expressive in terms of syrupy adjectives to describe what I am hearing --- more of an objective scientific type reviewer but I can say that the CX-A5000 just disappears --- the one thing that stands out. That may sound a bit weird but it just is the one thing that came to mind in that it just disappeared and all that was left was the soundstage of the media. There didn't seem to be any characteristic of the CX-A5000. Just pure, clinical precision. I like that a lot!

More to follow. If anyone has any questions don't hesitate to ask away.

Cheers.

Tony
RichB, finsup and smitty8451 like this.
TKO1 is offline  
post #641 of 2949 Old 10-14-2013, 01:38 PM
Senior Member
 
Mad Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Land of 10,000 Taxes!
Posts: 472
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 100
A very nice and well written review Tony - thanks!
Looking forward to the follow ups! smile.gif

The Insane Pink Care Bear's Home Theater Set Up:

Marantz AV 8801 Processor, Emotiva XPR-5 Amplifier, Panasonic 65" ST30 Plasma, Yamaha BD-S2900 Blu-ray, Yamaha CDC-697 CD Player, Yamaha TT-500U Turntable, w/Signet TK5e, JBL ES100 Fronts, JBL LC2 Center, JBL ES30 Surrounds & 2 JBL ES250P Subwoofers
Mad Norseman is offline  
post #642 of 2949 Old 10-15-2013, 03:52 AM
Advanced Member
 
Webmonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 891
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 21
yes nice review!

All we need now is a face off against AV8801 :-D
Webmonkey is offline  
post #643 of 2949 Old 10-15-2013, 04:39 AM
Member
 
THX Mode's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 160
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Hey Tony,

Nice review - I also replaced the Denon 4311 with the CX-A5000. My findings were quite similar in terms of the Yamaha 'disappearing' - a nice change from the Denon sound, especially running in 11.2 (2xRotel 1077 w/2 ForceField 4 subs and 11 mounted Mirage Omnisats)

your neighbour in Kanata,

TC
TKO1 likes this.
THX Mode is offline  
post #644 of 2949 Old 10-15-2013, 06:45 AM
Advanced Member
 
TKO1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada's capital city.
Posts: 554
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Webmonkey View Post

yes nice review!

All we need now is a face off against AV8801 :-D

I originally considered that processor as well but two things were instrumental in my decision. The first was the reports of how hot the AV8801 got and the second was the excellent analysis and research by Dr. David Rich on the Secrets of Home Theater and High-Fidelity website: AVR - Build Quality: Part 1, in particular this paragraph:
Quote:
A key takeaway: circuit quality in the direct mode (stereo or 7.1) is almost always invariant to AVR prices in the range of $400 to $2,000. As examples, the $250 Yamaha RX-V367 and Marantz AV8801 ($3000) use the same Renesas LSI chip (R2A15220FP). With the LSI analog chip in these products, the sound of the direct mode is relatively constant, although a more robust power supplies, addition a quality output buffer and enhanced DC blocking capacitor quality can make small differences.

Since the CX-A5000 is built in a similar fashion to the Z11 and Z9 it is likely to have overcome this potential "weakness".

Cheers.
TKO1 is offline  
post #645 of 2949 Old 10-15-2013, 07:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mastermaybe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,133
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked: 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Those people tend to never experience MCACC (Pioneer), YPAO (Yamaha) and ARC (Anthem) or Lyngdorf (McIntosh). More people use Audyssey is because it's the cheapest solution to license hence they're on NAD, Denon, Marantz, Onkyo and Teac.

Huh? 3 out of the 4 four room correction systems you listed are PROPRIETARY to the manufacturer, hence zero licensing possibilities, elsewhere. The manufacturers using Audyssey do not have their own RC, so you have the inclusion of Audyssey. Cheap? Well, that may or may not be the case, but it almost certainly isn't the sole driving force behind it...take a look at the CEMs you listed and the price tags of many of their units...not exactly a gang of bargain brands or models, there.

And as far as what "those" people tend to hear, I have no clue as to whom or why you base such an assumption. Surely you don't think that most people looking to spend thousands of dollars on an AVR or PREPRO have no experience with any room correction besides audyssey? I for one have heard 3 of the 4 you listed...and they universally have all of their own pluses and minuses, imo.

I'm of the opinion that Yamaha's YPAO continues to suffer from leaving out the lower 2/3 octaves of the audible bass spectrum in its room correction effort. It's easily discernible, and worse, prolly one of the areas of the audible correction that requires the MOST adjustment, not the least.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

mastermaybe is offline  
post #646 of 2949 Old 10-15-2013, 07:38 AM
Senior Member
 
smitty8451's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 241
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked: 57
The amount of heat the Marantz 8801 generates, the "I" device control app (Yamaha's is very nice and intuative) and the fact you cannot change HDMI inputs in stand bye mode were the deciding factors for me when choosing between the Marantz and Yamaha prepro's. I have had my Yamaha since 2 Aug and could not be happier.smile.gif

Yamaha CX-A5000, ATI AT 2007 Amp (7X200W), ATI AT 2004 Amp (4X200W)
Klipsch RF 63's - Main, RB 61's - Front heights, RC-62 - Center, RS-62's - Surround, RS-52's - Rear Surround
2 Rythmik DS-1510 DIY Subwoofers (With PEQ600XLR3 Amp) each connected with Antimode 8033S-II
smitty8451 is offline  
post #647 of 2949 Old 10-16-2013, 04:57 AM
Member
 
paesan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 154
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I am in the process of upgrading my receiver and I am trying to decide between the a2020 and a2030. The price difference between last years a2020 and the new a2030 being my biggest reason why I am considering the a2020. Is there a big difference in sound and features between these 2 models.
paesan is offline  
post #648 of 2949 Old 10-16-2013, 09:25 AM
Member
 
sutton8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: London, England
Posts: 161
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by paesan View Post

I am in the process of upgrading my receiver and I am trying to decide between the a2020 and a2030. The price difference between last years a2020 and the new a2030 being my biggest reason why I am considering the a2020. Is there a big difference in sound and features between these 2 models.

I had the same decision and went for the 2020. For the price difference there did not seem any point in the 30. I'm happy with the choice as well.

Anthem MRX 710 : Monitor Audio Apex 5-A40 : Paradigm Seismic 110 : Panasonic TX-P65VT65B : Oppo 103D
sutton8 is offline  
post #649 of 2949 Old 10-16-2013, 10:39 AM
Advanced Member
 
TKO1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada's capital city.
Posts: 554
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 65
Hi everyone,

as I get more hands-on time with the CX-A5000 I have been trying to get an understanding of some of the Yamaha technologies for which the operating manual's description is wholly inadequate or requires further research. This is my first time with Yamaha technology so I am going to start by putting my explanation/definition for some of these technologies here unless someone can point me to a FAQ.

Analog multi-channel inputs: As there is no multi-channel only setting in the CX-A5000 for applying a boost to the LFE/subwoofer channel to account for the -10dB (large speaker setting) or -15dB (small speaker setting) when using the analog RCA inputs the user must do this themselves. The subwoofer level setting allows the user to adjust to a maximum of +10dB which would mean that it would be okay to have that level stored with that input mode only. This assumes that all other speaker trims are set at 0dB which wouldn't be the case if YPAO is ran and/or manual channel levels are set. This is okay for the signal being fed in from an external device where all the bass management is being done using the large speaker settings. If, however, you have your external device (e.g. an Oppo Blu-ray player) setup with small speakers then you need to account for another 5dB somewhere else. This can be done in a couple of different way: 1) add a boost of 5dB to the Oppo's subwoofer channel or 2) decrease the other channels by 5dB. Please note that I haven't tried this yet but I believe it would work fine with a Scene or with a Setting Pattern where you can store the levels and then switch between them for when you are using analog multi-channel (i.e. 5.1 or 7.1 inputs from DVD/SACD/Blu-ray/external players).

Caveat emptor: look closely at whether or not you truly believe that the external player's DACs and its bass management is superior to that of the Yamaha before thinking that this is a good thing to do. For example, the Oppo BDP-105, which I own and love, has better DACs (not by much) than the CX-A5000 BUT is has inferior bass management in terms of the crossover slope. The Oppo's crossover slope is only 12dB/octave for the Low Pass Filter (LPF) (THX recommendation is 24dB/octave) which means it is down 3dB at 80Hz vice 6dB. As well the Oppo only permits the crossover settings to be at 20Hz intervals below 80Hz (i.e. 40, 60 or 80Hz) and then 10Hz between 80-120Hz (i.e. 90, 100, 110, 120Hz). The Yamaha has a 24dB/octave LPF.

- Straight playback: this is similar to direct playback on other AVRs and preamps/processors. Bass management and equalization settings are still in place however no DSP options are available. I.e. you can't use Straight mode with the Roxy Theatre DSP.

- Adaptive DRC (Dynamic Range Control): this is the equivalent to Dolby Volume or Audyssey Dynamic EQ. It is a feature to improve the sound at lower volume levels when our ears lose sensitivity. Good for maintaining a nice balanced sound at night or with headphone listening.

- Adaptive DSP (Digital Sound Field Processing in this instance): this is the same feature as Adaptive DRC but it is for use when using one of the Yamaha's DSP options, e.g. Cinema DSP.

- Dynamic Range (not to be confused with Adaptive DRC above): this applies to Bitstream signals only in either Dolby Digital or DTS or TrueHD formats. If you want this to be untouched then leave it at the default Maximum. If you want it to have some type of dynamic range processing "for regular home use", whatever that means, then set it to Standard. If you want to use the embedded metadata within the DTS or TrueHD signals then set it to Minimum/Auto. H/W a good breakdown of this from the Dolby - All About Audio Metadata document. Page 3 explains Dynamic Range Control technology.
Quote:
Dynamic range control
Dynamic range control (sometimes referred to as dynamic range compression or midnight mode) gives the consumer the flexibility to listen to program audio with a reduced dynamic range. Compression of the dynamic range lets viewers watch television without disturbing the neighbors. This control is optional and can be turned off in most Dolby Digital decoders.

Dynamic range control within the Dolby Digital data stream consists of two parameters or “profiles”: RF Mode and Line Mode. These two parameters do not change the content of the encoded audio within the bitstream. They are used to adjust the extremes of the program material within the listening environment to account for those instances where it is preferable or necessary to listen to the program at a reduced dynamic range.

RF Mode is designed for peak limiting situations where the decoded program is intended for delivery through an RF input on a television, such as through the antenna output of a set-top box. The RF Mode Profile is also used for the common “midnight mode” feature on consumer decoders, which provides dynamic range compression to ensure that an action movie won’t wake up the neighbors.

Line Mode provides a lighter type of compression, and also allows user adjustment of the low-level boost and high-level cut parameters within a home decoder. This adjustment or “scaling” of the boost and cut areas allows the consumer to customize the audio reproduction for their specific listening environment.

At lower volumes, the softer portions of a program (whispers and soft-spoken dialogue) are more difficult to hear. If the viewer increases the volume, however, the louder portions (explosions, onscreen arguments, unshots, etc.) become too loud for comfortable listening. Alternatively, in an environment with a high level of background noise, quieter portions of the program will be drowned out by the ambient noise.

When dynamic range profiles are asserted within the decoder, the decoder raises the level if the softer portions of the program while lowering the level of the louder portions, allowing the user to enjoy the movie without having to continually reach for the volume control. Once again, this ability to scale the amount of compression only applies to the Line Mode Profile and is dependent on the feature set available in the consumer’s home decoder.

Because of the relationship between dialogue level and dynamic range control, it is necessary to select the appropriate dialnorm value prior to previewing dynamic range profiles. As the amount of dynamic range compression will be ultimately selected by the consumer for their own specific listening needs, it is important to preview the source mix through each preset before selecting one to include in the metadata stream.

- DAC Digital Filter: this is a neat feature that the top-of-the-line ESS DACs have in that the user can configure the roll-off of the DAC's digital filter. I tried to get the technical documents to examine them in detail but couldn't find exactly what I was looking for. I did, however, find a nice SoundStage! Hi-Fi review of the Resonessence Labs Invicta DAC which provides some subjective analysis of two of the filter types using the ES9018 DAC (the Yamaha has dual ES9016 DACs per channel with similar features). Please note that Yamaha refers to them as Sharp Roll-off and Slow Roll-off which would equate to Fast and Slow in the review.
Quote:
Sound

The Invicta’s two digital reconstruction filters -- switchable with a single button push on the remote -- offered markedly different sounds. Miles Davis’s Harmon-muted trumpet in the title track of his ’Round About Midnight (CD, Columbia CK 40610) had more bite with the Fast-rolloff filter setting, and was a bit darker, with more of the fundamental pitch of each note, when set to Slow rolloff. Similarly, I heard a bit more body in the tone of Itzhak Perlman’s violin -- on his live performance of sonatas by Beethoven and Franck, with pianist Martha Argerich, from the Saratoga Music Festival (CD, EMI 5 56815 2) -- when I selected Slow, and a little more emphasis on the strings with the filter set to Fast. Since these filters should affect frequencies only near the top of the passband, I was curious whether I would hear any difference with high-resolution recordings. Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong’s Ella and Louis (24/96 FLAC, Verve/HDtracks) has only very little frequency content above 20kHz, so I didn’t expect a Fast or Slow rolloff to make any difference in the timbre of Armstrong’s trumpet. But not only did his instrument gain a little weight, his voice was also a shade deeper with Slow. The slightly deeper, darker sound of the Slow filter setting was consistent in both direction and degree across all of the music I played through the Invicta.

I was surprised to find that filter selection also changed the character of the bass. The Fast filter was a little drier, tighter, and leaner, while Slow was broader, with seemingly greater extension. Ray Brown’s double bass on the Oscar Peterson Trio’s Night Train (24/96 FLAC, Verve/HDtracks) had a more articulated attack with the Fast setting, and seemed a little larger with Slow. The kick drum in “Run like Hell,” from Pink Floyd’s The Wall (CD, EMI 8 81243 2), exhibited a bit more punch with Fast, and more weight with Slow. With jazz and rock, either filter resulted in perfectly acceptable sound; I didn’t have a strong preference. With orchestral music, on the other hand, I appreciated the grander sound the Slow filter gave to timpani -- as in the Minnesota Orchestra’s recording of Sibelius’s Symphonies Nos. 2 and 5 under the baton of Osmo Vänskä (24/96 FLAC, BIS/e classical). Whichever filter I selected, the bass was always tuneful and firmly in control.

As great as the Invicta sounded with high-quality recordings, it still made less-than-stellar recordings sound good. The Slow filter removed some of the sheen from overly hot modern rock, such as David Gilmour’s On an Island (CD, Columbia 80280), and the harsh grating from bad digital transfers of analog recordings -- such as Sade’s Diamond Life (CD, Epic EK 85240). It also reduced the stridency of the brass and violins in some older orchestral recordings. Here, I’m not talking about the rolloff of some soft-dome tweeters or the warmth characteristic of a single-ended tube amplifier. The effect of the Invicta’s Slow filter was much more subtle. Instrumental and vocal timbres were entirely believable, but the sound was more relaxed than that of many other high-end DACs.

The Invicta’s Slow rolloff filter took a step back, smoothing out the rough edges present on a great many recordings. Even the wider-bandwidth Fast filter managed to avoid the edginess that many listeners have come to accept as “digital sound” over the past several decades. But my descriptors smooth and relaxed shouldn’t be taken to mean sloppy or imprecise. The Invicta’s sound was anything but. Notes started and stopped in perfect time, and transients were quick and clean.

The Invicta’s precision was best exemplified in its presentation of spatial information. Both filters produced tightly focused images -- instruments and singers were placed precisely and unwaveringly from left to right across the soundstage with the Fast filter, those images beginning just behind the speaker plane but varying only moderately in depth. With Slow, the front of the soundstage was only slightly farther back than with Fast, but the depth was greatly expanded -- I could more easily discriminate each sound source’s position from front to back. The reverberant field around each instrument was better defined, and with recordings made in natural environments, those reverberant fields blended seamlessly into each other to create a coherent whole.

For example, on Bucky Pizzarelli’s Swing Live (24/96 FLAC, Chesky/HDtracks), the space between and just to the sides of my speakers was transformed into the slightly dry acoustic of a small jazz club. In this setting, the distance between performers isn’t huge, but I still heard the vibraphone upfront and left, the guitar on the right, the clarinet centered and slightly farther back, and the drums and bass behind all three. The Norwegian Armed Forces Staff Band required a much larger concert hall for their recording of Eugène Bozza’s Children’s Overture (24/176.4 FLAC, 2L/SoundStageRecordings.com), and the Invicta made the difference obvious. The trumpets were far back, and the sound of the French horns reverberated off walls that were still farther off, yet clearly defined.

the other option in the DAC Digital Filter setting is the default, Short Latency Type. I haven't yet tried anything but the default but I intend to when I get a chance. Interesting that the reviewer found such notable differences.

I am still incredibly impressed by the sound quality from this device and its operation. Well done Yamaha.

Hope this helps.


Tony
RichB and finsup like this.
TKO1 is offline  
post #650 of 2949 Old 10-16-2013, 10:47 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Bond 007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 11,842
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 110 Post(s)
Liked: 823
Good stuff. Thanks, Tony.

No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!
Bond 007 is online now  
post #651 of 2949 Old 10-16-2013, 11:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jima4a's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Southeast USA
Posts: 1,437
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 63
TKO1 (Tony),

Have you compared the CX to the 105 going straight to the amps? I have the DHC80.3 but my priority is music so the interest in the Yamaha.

Jim

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, DBP 2010, Samsung BD-C7900, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650. Sitting still CCM616, Kef...
jima4a is online now  
post #652 of 2949 Old 10-16-2013, 11:35 AM
Advanced Member
 
TKO1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada's capital city.
Posts: 554
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

TKO1 (Tony),

Have you compared the CX to the 105 going straight to the amps? I have the DHC80.3 but my priority is music so the interest in the Yamaha.

Jim

Hey Jim,

no, sorry. Looking at it from a pure technical point of view the Oppo would have a better SNR going straight to an amplifier than going through the CX-A5000 as its analog circuitry is higher quality due to the better DACs and the way they are configured. Whether or not that is noticeable is another story. From my brief listening experiences with the Yamaha, without even attempting to use YPAO or the PEQ, I haven't even bothered to hook up the analog RCAs from my Oppo, as the CX-A5000 sounds so good. I will be hooking up the XLRs though, maybe this weekend, to see how the balanced approach works. The THD and the SNR specs for the CX-A5000 are excellent and I believe are worst-case specifications. I believe they will test better than that. The Oppo BDP-105, according to these Audioholic measurements are off-the-charts excellent. The THD for the Oppo measured .005 and the THD for the CX-A5000 is .008 or less! The SNR for the CX-A5000 is 112dB or more! If you check out the excellent article from Dr. Rich at Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity: Audio Video Receiver Build Quality - Part 1 you can see where the Yamaha would likely be placed in comparison to others. The top DACS in the chart are what is in the Oppo BDP-105.

Cheers.

Tony
TKO1 is offline  
post #653 of 2949 Old 10-17-2013, 09:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Espo77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Delmarva Peninsula, Maryland
Posts: 1,970
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKO1 View Post

you can find the review here. FWIW this is another example of bizarre audio reviewing with nothing tangible to back up some of the claims:


So they are basically saying a product they rate at 5 stars can't accurately reproduce the frequency range it is supposed to and a dedicated stereo amplifier would be better for music.

Gee, and they wonder why they are losing their customer base.


Cheers.

Tony

TKO1, who are you mad at? I looked at the review, and although not technical, I thought it was informative.

Espo77
Espo77 is offline  
post #654 of 2949 Old 10-17-2013, 09:24 AM
Advanced Member
 
TKO1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada's capital city.
Posts: 554
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Espo77 View Post

TKO1, who are you mad at? I looked at the review, and although not technical, I thought it was informative.

Not mad at anyone. I find it to be almost cartoonish in comparison to reviews at Audioholics or Sound & Vision etc. They criticize the product for not being able to faithfully reproduce the frequency response, which BTW, is the single most important thing any audio device should be capable of, and then award it 5 stars.

Cheers.
TKO1 is offline  
post #655 of 2949 Old 10-17-2013, 09:53 AM
Senior Member
 
nucky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: scotland
Posts: 217
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 19
What hi-fi is a joke.
TKO1 and maximus74 like this.

Anthem D2v 3d Preamp & Arcam p777 power amp. oppo-103D .oppo 95: JVS DLA-X3 projector. Sub JL f113 fathem & 2 DIY SI HD 15 subs Dali Helicon 400 C200 phantom iw 200.Speakers cable talk excel 4.mark grant cables.
nucky is online now  
post #656 of 2949 Old 10-17-2013, 11:04 AM
FMW
AVS Special Member
 
FMW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,549
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Liked: 639
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKO1 View Post

Not mad at anyone. I find it to be almost cartoonish in comparison to reviews at Audioholics or Sound & Vision etc. They criticize the product for not being able to faithfully reproduce the frequency response, which BTW, is the single most important thing any audio device should be capable of, and then award it 5 stars.

Cheers.

To say nothing about the fact that the specs show excellent frequency response and inaudible distortion as one would expect. I guess his ears are better than laboratory test equipment or, perhaps, YPAO doesn't like his room.
TKO1 likes this.
FMW is offline  
post #657 of 2949 Old 10-17-2013, 01:26 PM
Advanced Member
 
TKO1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canada's capital city.
Posts: 554
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 65
Here's the next installment of my Getting Familiar with Yamaha Technology. In this case comparing the automated system settings (e.g. channel levels and distances) between Audyssey MultEQ XT32 (from my old Denon AVR-4311CI) and YPAO RSC (from the new Yamaha CX-A5000).

Using the RCA pre-amplifier outputs to my Marantz MM7055 5-channel power amplifier which is exactly the same way that the Audyssey MultEQ XT32 measurement setup was done. First difference in the setup methodology is Audyssey provides a subwoofer channel level SPL meter configuration if it is getting too low or too high a reading from the subwoofers. YPAO asks the user to set the subwoofer at the center, 12 o'clock position. My subwoofers are Paradigm Reference Seismic 110s already equalized with Paradigm's Perfect Bass Kit (PBK). PBK does not set the levels however. I am going to rerun the measurements when I hook up the XLRs between the CX-A5000 and the MM7055 to see if there is any difference.

My current home theatre layout is very easy to approximate the microphone positions (in this case 5 measuring postions were chosen) as the floor is 12" x 12" tiles and I have the main listening position sofa aligned perfectly with one of the lines. I used the Paradigm tripod for the main base and then attached the Yamaha tri-wave device onto the center pillar of the Paradigm tripod. This tri-wave device actually positions the microphone about 4.5" away from where it would have been for the Audyssey measurements because of its design.

My speakers are the Revel Concerta models, F12 for front and left, C12 for center, and M12 for rear surrounds. These speakers are very flat in terms of their frequency response as can be seen by their anechoic measurements available at the excellent resource SoundStageNetwork.com - Speaker Measurements. What is interesting about them, and both Audyssey and YPAO have to account for, is the differences in their sensitivity. The Revel Concerta Brochure provides information about these speakers including their sensitivity ratings. The F12s are rated at 90.5dB SPL, the C12 at 90dB SPL and the M12s at 87dB. So as long as the speakers are able to maintain a good sound pressure reading based on their distance from the microphone 3dB needs to be factored in somewhere. And it is.



What's interesting about the results is that they are pretty well exactly the same. There were some differences in what Yamaha and Denon determine to be a large vs. a small speaker which is outside of Audyssey's control so I left it out from here. So anyone concerned that Yamaha's YPAO R.S.C. technology wasn't the equal of an implementation in the Denon AVR-4311CI of Audyssey MultEQ XT32, at least as far as distance and channel levels are concerned, need not worry. The methodology in terms of what speaker to use as the Δ speaker for the other speakers to be set to is interesting. Audyssey cuts, Yamaha boosts a little.

Please note I haven't examined any of the YPAO EQ results yet. That will be a later time when I can get my measurements equipment out etc.

Hope you find this as interesting as I did.

Cheers.
TKO1 is offline  
post #658 of 2949 Old 10-17-2013, 01:38 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Bond 007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 11,842
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 110 Post(s)
Liked: 823
Good deal. Distance and level are easy though and I wouldnt expect much difference. I suspect the EQ results will be another matter entirely.

No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!
Bond 007 is online now  
post #659 of 2949 Old 10-17-2013, 04:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
kriktsemaj99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 5,884
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Liked: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKO1 View Post

...Please note I haven't examined any of the YPAO EQ results yet. That will be a later time when I can get my measurements equipment out etc.

If you copy one of the 3 YPAO results (Front, Flat or Natural) to Manual, then you can check how all the PEQ filters are set (frequency, gain and Q factor).

To visualize the combined effect of all the filters set for a particular channel, you could use PEQedit (link). You'll have to enter the filter parameters manually though. It would be nice if PEQedit could read the filters directly from the receiver over the network, but it doesn't do that right now (I'll add that at some point). And you'll have to choose the RX-A3000 as the closest model, which should support the same PEQ filters as the CX-A5000.
finsup and TKO1 like this.
kriktsemaj99 is offline  
post #660 of 2949 Old 10-17-2013, 05:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
turnne1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,989
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 93 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty8451 View Post

The amount of heat the Marantz 8801 generates, the "I" device control app (Yamaha's is very nice and intuative) and the fact you cannot change HDMI inputs in stand bye mode were the deciding factors for me when choosing between the Marantz and Yamaha prepro's. I have had my Yamaha since 2 Aug and could not be happier.smile.gif

did you actually own the Marantz and see how the two sounded in your set up?

to me ...sound is 95% of why I would choose one over the other



Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Onkyo 5508 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp Atlantic technology System 350 THX Ultra speakers
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Pioneer SC37 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Yamaha A2010 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 Onkyo 5009/906 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
turnne1 is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Tags
Yamaha Aventage Rxa 1030 Receiver , Yamaha Rxa2030bl Aventage Home Theater Receiver , Yamaha Rxa3030bl Aventage Home Theater Receiver
Gear in this thread

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off