The "Official" Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A1030, RX-A2030, RX-A3030 and CX-A5000/MX-A5000 Thread - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 2869 Old 10-25-2013, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by jhongomz View Post

You are doing honest work here TKO1 and it is very much appreciated.
+1

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post #722 of 2869 Old 10-25-2013, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jhongomz View Post

You are doing honest work here TKO1 and it is very much appreciated.

Thanks --- I just figured everyone was as interested in this topic as I was ;-)

H/W a comparison from the YPAO Flat EQ setting to the Manual PEQ where I fine-tuned a couple of the first bands for the right and left speakers and the two subwoofers. As you can even with a crippled PEQ the user can still dial in a very reasonable flat response.



Hope this helps. Cheers.
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post #723 of 2869 Old 10-25-2013, 05:27 PM
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Yes, very interested. I am just surprised at the lack of reviews from the review sites. I said it before in a another post, but I would have imagined that the switch in DACS would warrant a lot more inspection. I mean, they've always used BURR BROWN and now a switch. Lets get some voices going even if just to say... eh, it sounds the same.

I am still waiting on getting my a1030 since now I am facing a laptop upgrade as well and having a hard time making that decision... sigh.... but these posts are helping me feel better about my position and my decision to go with the yammy over others.

Thanks again and rest assured, there are plenty of folks that are just waiting for you to post more. No pressure wink.gif
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post #724 of 2869 Old 10-25-2013, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKO1 View Post

Thanks --- I just figured everyone was as interested in this topic as I was ;-)

H/W a comparison from the YPAO Flat EQ setting to the Manual PEQ where I fine-tuned a couple of the first bands for the right and left speakers and the two subwoofers. As you can even with a crippled PEQ the user can still dial in a very reasonable flat response.



Hope this helps. Cheers.

I'll add my thanks as well, very keen on one of these good to see some positive feedback from an owner. I was surprised with your results, how did it handle the subs?
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post #725 of 2869 Old 10-25-2013, 09:29 PM
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After I ran YPAO and then looked at the Flat setting there is a red line and a black line. What do they represent?
The red line seems to be the EQ settings after YPAO but what is the black line? Is it the speakers frequency response before EQ?
My front left and right are wildly different.

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post #726 of 2869 Old 10-26-2013, 04:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by com5984 View Post

I'll add my thanks as well, very keen on one of these good to see some positive feedback from an owner. I was surprised with your results, how did it handle the subs?

To be brutally honest I didn't expect the YPAO RSC results to be this good/accurate. The Audyssey MultEQ XT32 was, by far, the best EQ I had used, after Anthem's ARC which I still believe to be the best. I expected the YPAO RSC results to be similar to what I got a few years ago with Pioneer's MCACC.

The subs are two Paradigm Reference Seismic 110s and they are equalized using Paradigm's Perfect Bass Kit (PBK). This is a cut down version of Anthem's acclaimed ARC room correction system but dedicated to the subwoofers. The PBK kit comes with the software and the same type of calibrated microphone/tripod as Anthem's ARC. So in this instance they didn't need a lot of correction but it did make one correction at 31.3Hz, dropping it by -0.5dB gain with a Q of 0.5. Please note that those conditions were exactly the same with the Denon/Audyssey graphs in that the subwoofers were already equalized prior to running Audyssey. It is very possible that the YPAO RSC results would be very different if I had two subwoofers without any equalization. Perhaps someone else can try that measurement. In the Manual PEQ image above I did tweak the subwoofers and the front speakers a little bit to try and smooth out one problem area in my large and open concept listening space. If Yamaha allowed the Manual PEQ center frequencies to be modified then you could really deal with the subwoofer frequencies.

FWIW I don't believe in correcting any frequencies above 400Hz as you are correcting the speakers and not the room acoustics. This statement comes directly from Drs Toole and Olive from their combined 80+ years of speaker research. This is why I turned off Audyssey on my Denon and why ARC was so much better as it allowed the user to control the maximum correction frequency.

Right now I am running the Manual PEQ equalization and have zero-ized all the remaining EQ above 400Hz. This is the best sound I have heard in my home with my Revel speakers. Anthem's ARC is better for the room correction unless Yamaha fixes the preset center frequencies issue but the Yamaha sounds better.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.
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post #727 of 2869 Old 10-26-2013, 05:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

After I ran YPAO and then looked at the Flat setting there is a red line and a black line. What do they represent?
The red line seems to be the EQ settings after YPAO but what is the black line? Is it the speakers frequency response before EQ?
My front left and right are wildly different.

I am not at the CX-A5000 right now so I can't look for you but if you have your AVR/pre-pro connected to your home internet you can go into the "hidden" setup feature:

192.168.0.xxx/setup

and you can actually get a text readout of all the YPAO results. That will give you an idea of what it going on.

Cheers.
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post #728 of 2869 Old 10-26-2013, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKO1 View Post

I am not at the CX-A5000 right now so I can't look for you but if you have your AVR/pre-pro connected to your home internet you can go into the "hidden" setup feature:

192.168.0.xxx/setup

and you can actually get a text readout of all the YPAO results. That will give you an idea of what it going on.

Cheers.
Interesting thing about that. The results are different there than what is displayed by the AVR On Screen Display. Very strange.
Menu > Setup > Manual Setup > Parametric EQ > YPAO:Flat is where I go on the AVR.
Web Setup > Speaker > PEQ is where I go with the Web Setup.

Again, the results are different. And not a little different. Almost completely different.

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post #729 of 2869 Old 10-26-2013, 06:16 AM
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OK...so this is what has happened. All of this has been done though the AVR ONLY.
Last night I copied the Flat settings to the Manual field and modified them.
Then I reran YPAO. So the Flat settings are now slightly different. But in the Manual field I still have the modified Flat settings from before I reran YPAO.
Those modified Flat settings are what is showing up as my Flat settings now in the Web Setup Menu under Parametric EQ instead of the new (post YPAO) Flat settings.
That is why the Flat settings are different in the AVR and the Web Setup. For some reason the new Flat settings are not carrying over to the Web Setup.
In the Web Setup the Flat settings and the Manual settings are now the same even though I have rerun YPAO and the true Flat settings should be different.
Sorry for explaining that a dozen different ways. It is confusing and Im trying to be as clear as possible.
I have clicked Refresh several times and got out and back in also and it has made no difference. Also have turned the AVR off and back on.

So, in summary I really dont care about the Web Setup particularly since it seems unreliable. But I would love to have my original question answered.
What do the 2 different lines represent when looking at the Parametric EQ settings in the AVR?

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post #730 of 2869 Old 10-26-2013, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKO1 View Post

I am not at the CX-A5000 right now so I can't look for you but if you have your AVR/pre-pro connected to your home internet you can go into the "hidden" setup feature:

192.168.0.xxx/setup

and you can actually get a text readout of all the YPAO results. That will give you an idea of what it going on.

Cheers.
Thanks for this btw. The Web Setup provides less info regarding the Parametric EQ than the AVR itself so thats no help.
Sorry if my above post sounds short. Im a little aggravated about whats going on at home right now.

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post #731 of 2869 Old 10-26-2013, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

OK...so this is what has happened. All of this has been done though the AVR ONLY.
Last night I copied the Flat settings to the Manual field and modified them.
Then I reran YPAO. So the Flat settings are now slightly different. But in the Manual field I still have the modified Flat settings from before I reran YPAO.
Those modified Flat settings are what is showing up as my Flat settings now in the Web Setup Menu under Parametric EQ instead of the new (post YPAO) Flat settings.
That is why the Flat settings are different in the AVR and the Web Setup. For some reason the new Flat settings are not carrying over to the Web Setup.
In the Web Setup the Flat settings and the Manual settings are now the same even though I have rerun YPAO and the true Flat settings should be different.
Sorry for explaining that a dozen different ways. It is confusing and Im trying to be as clear as possible.
I have clicked Refresh several times and got out and back in also and it has made no difference. Also have turned the AVR off and back on.

So, in summary I really dont care about the Web Setup particularly since it seems unreliable. But I would love to have my original question answered.
What do the 2 different lines represent when looking at the Parametric EQ settings in the AVR?

Hey Bond 007

do you have the CX-A5000? I just checked my settings are they are exactly the same between the web setup and the A5000.

As for the lines when you examine the YPAO Flat settings I have the following:

- upon entering the YPAO Flat it displays the 0db reference line and then the desired frequency response (grey) and the current EQ settings (cf,Q, gain) --- or at least that is the way I read it wink.gif

you could try using the PEQ Data Clear option on the Manual PEQ page 2 and then copy it over again and see what happens...

If none of that works I am at a loss. Good luck.

Cheers.
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post #732 of 2869 Old 10-26-2013, 04:18 PM
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I have a 675 but Im pretty sure the Parametric EQ is the same.
Someone else told me the grey line is the values after YPAO EQ. And the red line is what had to be done to the speaker to get the grey line.
Make any sense?

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post #733 of 2869 Old 10-26-2013, 04:26 PM
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I think the black curve is the combined effect of all the filters. So it's not going to be flat, it's actually the inverse of the measured response of that speaker without any filters (so if there was a measured low somewhere, the curve will show a peak at that frequency, which will cancel out the low when the filter is applied).

This is the way it was explained to me.

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post #734 of 2869 Old 10-26-2013, 04:39 PM
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This is a picture of my EQ.
Very strange. If you click on my picture it is part of TKO1s slideshow. No clue how thats possible.

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post #735 of 2869 Old 10-26-2013, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKO1 View Post

Thanks --- I just figured everyone was as interested in this topic as I was ;-)

H/W a comparison from the YPAO Flat EQ setting to the Manual PEQ where I fine-tuned a couple of the first bands for the right and left speakers and the two subwoofers. As you can even with a crippled PEQ the user can still dial in a very reasonable flat response.



Hope this helps. Cheers.

TKO1,
Thanks for your input here It's fantastic to see an A-B between the new YPAO RSC and Audyssey - really interesting to see the real world performance versus the hype. smile.gif

The new graph looks really good, you've dialed down your subs a little?

Are you running your crossover at 80Hz?

I've never been able to get a super smooth transition between the DD15's and my Z7 at the crossover - hasn't mattered if I've played with the PEQ in the subs or AVR - what you've achieved looks fantastic.

Keep up the great work and again, really appreciate what you've been posting.
I've got my eye on an A5000. smile.gif
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post #736 of 2869 Old 10-27-2013, 04:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azz View Post

TKO1,
Thanks for your input here It's fantastic to see an A-B between the new YPAO RSC and Audyssey - really interesting to see the real world performance versus the hype. smile.gif

The new graph looks really good, you've dialed down your subs a little?

Are you running your crossover at 80Hz?

I've never been able to get a super smooth transition between the DD15's and my Z7 at the crossover - hasn't mattered if I've played with the PEQ in the subs or AVR - what you've achieved looks fantastic.

Keep up the great work and again, really appreciate what you've been posting.
I've got my eye on an A5000. smile.gif

Crossover is set at 80Hz and the A5000 does a THX requirement with the crossover LPF at 24dB per octave. Since I am using the Paradigm PBK it makes sense to make as much use of the subwoofers that are already equalized as possible. I dropped the subwoofers a little with that peak around 62Hz and then finetuned the left and right speakers with a small 2dB boost around 100Hz. My room is horrible. It is a furnished basement in a huge open L-shaped concept with the main listening position parallel with the opening for the basement steps which is why I can't really fix that null any more between 80 and 120 without moving the speakers or the sofa, both of which are not possible so I have to live with it. Which is why raising the crossover or lowering makes no sense either way as the speakers and the subwoofers are exactly the same distance from the main listening position. If I could move them about 3 feet closer that null would be gone ;-)

I use this excellent reference article - Bandwidth in Octaves Versus Q in Bandpass Filters as my guide for setting the PEQ.

It would be great if Yamaha would fix the PEQ to allow the user to exactly dial in the center frequency for maximum targeting of the problem areas, especially in the frequency range up to 300-400Hz.

Cheers.
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post #737 of 2869 Old 10-27-2013, 04:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post



This is a picture of my EQ.
Very strange. If you click on my picture it is part of TKO1s slideshow. No clue how thats possible.

I get your screen picture if that helps.

Cheers.
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post #738 of 2869 Old 10-27-2013, 04:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

I think the black curve is the combined effect of all the filters. So it's not going to be flat, it's actually the inverse of the measured response of that speaker without any filters (so if there was a measured low somewhere, the curve will show a peak at that frequency, which will cancel out the low when the filter is applied).

This is the way it was explained to me.

I believe you have it right.

Cheers.
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post #739 of 2869 Old 10-27-2013, 04:46 AM
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Sorry should have posted this analysis graph earlier.

Herewith the three YPAO RSC results and the Through result (no equalization) so you can get a better idea of how the different EQs work. The YPAO Front only shows up in the graph at the low end as I haven't included any other speakers in the graph (i.e. only used the front left and right and the two subwoofers)



The main differences between YPAO Flat and YPAO Natural are only seen above 3kHz. It looks like the are shooting for a Harman curve 10dB drop from bass to 20kHz which has been identified as being preferred in subject blind listening tests.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.
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post #740 of 2869 Old 10-27-2013, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by ARetun View Post

Good question, but one that I believe can only be answered by the person actually making the purchase, spending the money. I don't expect my CX-A5000 (when it arrives) to be overwhelming better than my current Z11, but it will have some additional features that I expect to take advantage of. aAlso, since I'm not using the amps in the Z11, not having amps in the CX-A5000 comes across to me as a plus. Anyway, I've always wanted to use the XLR inputs on my Outlaw Audio amps.

This is my main line of thinking, time to step up and buy separate amps!

Whats a Z7 worth these days:confused:

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post #741 of 2869 Old 10-27-2013, 07:13 AM
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hi have any of you guys have compared the cx 5000 to denon 4520? soundwise?
i know the denon have sub eq and the yamaha doesnt but i was thinkging on getting a bfd to fix this.. but the yamaha you can manually trim the PEQ with your own values using a good mic, and rew for example
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post #742 of 2869 Old 10-27-2013, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milll36 View Post

hi have any of you guys have compared the cx 5000 to denon 4520? soundwise?
i know the denon have sub eq and the yamaha doesnt but i was thinkging on getting a bfd to fix this..

The A20x0/30x0/5000 do have sub EQ, only the A10x0 and below don't have it. A BFD (or similar) offers more precision for the PEQ filters, but it's not a given that you'll need it.
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post #743 of 2869 Old 10-27-2013, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

I think the black curve is the combined effect of all the filters. So it's not going to be flat, it's actually the inverse of the measured response of that speaker without any filters (so if there was a measured low somewhere, the curve will show a peak at that frequency, which will cancel out the low when the filter is applied).

This is the way it was explained to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKO1 View Post

I believe you have it right.

Cheers.
That is the explanation that krikts gave me. Credit where credit is due.
Thanks again kriktsemaj99

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post #744 of 2869 Old 10-27-2013, 03:54 PM
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Intersting.
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post #745 of 2869 Old 10-27-2013, 04:06 PM
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But I find the natural response of your system seems already quite flat, so the corrections are very light (really visible correction seems to be for highs), maybe not the best situation to compare the two systems.
Have you the with/without curves with Audyssey?

(for the 1.5kHz hole I think it's maybe the default Audyssey target curve, look here ; and like YPAO, Audyssey has a "flat" setting, maybe with it, it would be a better comparison)
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post #746 of 2869 Old 10-27-2013, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Nival View Post

But I find the natural response of your system seems already quite flat, so the corrections are very light (really visible correction seems to be for highs), maybe not the best situation to compare the two systems.
Have you the with/without curves with Audyssey?

(for the 1.5kHz hole I think it's maybe the default Audyssey target curve, look here ; and like YPAO, Audyssey has a "flat" setting, maybe with it, it would be a better comparison)

Not quite sure what you are asking....

Anyways my measurements were comparing the two default options --- the Denon AVR-4311CI defaulted to Audyssey not to Audyssey Flat. The Yamaha CX-A5000 defaulted to YPAO Flat. I didn't do any measurements with Audyssey Flat as my highs were boosted to the maximum with the Denon (i.e. +10dB) when I would use that option and it was horribly bright. As to whether or not Audyssey likes to have a 1.5/2.0kHz hole as their default target curve I have no idea. Might explain why I turned it off. Anthem's ARC doesn't do that and it is considered by most, myself included, to be the best room correction. It is definitely the best I have heard.

Cheers.
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post #747 of 2869 Old 10-29-2013, 02:10 PM
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Hi guys,

I've got my sub hooked up to the A2030 LFE Out. My sub manual says I can additionally connect, for two-channel mode, via a receiver's "Pre-Amp / Receiver Left Out and Right Out."

I can't figure out what outs to use for that, as the only Subwoofer outs I can find on the 2030 are the LFE (front) and LFE (back).

Can anyone provide guidance?

Thank you
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post #748 of 2869 Old 10-29-2013, 03:13 PM
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I'm looking at getting a new receiver and I'm probably going to purchase a Yamaha model (just need to decide which one). Can anyone give me a quick overview of what you gain by getting the RX-1030 over the RX-1020? Doesn't seem to be terribly much if anything at all. Is there something significant I'm missing?
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post #749 of 2869 Old 10-29-2013, 06:00 PM
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I lost my YPAO. Mic during my move.
Can I use my old Audessy. Mic on my 3030?

If not where can I purchase one?

Thanks
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post #750 of 2869 Old 10-29-2013, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bad1550 View Post

I lost my YPAO. Mic during my move.
Can I use my old Audessy. Mic on my 3030?

If not where can I purchase one?

Thanks

I would think that the two microphones are NOT compatible. They might be close as they are designed for a similar purpose but each company would define a set of operating characteristics for the microphone that would mean it would work with a specific generic calibration suited for the mass market. For example the Yamaha mike might start rolling off the high frequencies at 15kHz and as such the YPAO software adds in the additional dB to make it balanced for measurement purposes.

Check with Yamaha or your local dealer as I am sure they can replace it. My dealer got me a replacement mike in the past without any costs.

Cheers.
TKO1 is offline  
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