The "Official" Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A1030, RX-A2030, RX-A3030 and CX-A5000/MX-A5000 Thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 2970 Old 07-02-2013, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

I honestly don't see any reason for the pre-pro to cost more than the 3030. After all, the pre-pro IS a 3030 with additonal 10 DSP programs MINUS 9-ch amplifiers. (and the cost of XLR out is cheaper than a pair of the speaker terminals they use).

Using that (may be flawed) logic and being a cheap bastard, I'm waiting if I can get the pre-pro for $2K Canadian, max.

Yeah, I don't know. Every company prices their pre-pro's like that and has been forever. I always guessed maybe there were better quality parts in the pre-pro but.... who knows? I think it's dumb and pre-pro's should be priced lower in general.

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post #92 of 2970 Old 07-02-2013, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View PostI'm a cheap bastard. Only if it reaches $2K Canadian. smile.gif. I'm between that (or 3030) or the Pioneer SC-77.

Pioneer is calibrated at Air Studio does that mean anything at all!  Or is this just marketing logo, pay a fee put the logo on?

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post #93 of 2970 Old 07-02-2013, 05:58 PM
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Air studio logo can not be bought, AFAIK, as it is not a certification. It's just a signature that the sound engineers at Air Studios tuned the Pioneer's receivers sound.

Just like Andrew Jones' signature on certain Pioneer's speakers.

IMO, although I'm a huge Pioneer fan, Air Studios logo means nothing to my ears. I can't hear the difference between SC-65 vs SC-68, for example (non air studios vs air studios).

I'm torn between Yamaha and Pioneer because of two things:

1. I love Yamaha DSP.
2. I love Pioneer Optimum Surround.

For amplification I already use Parasound, so I don't care either way for the amp part.

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post #94 of 2970 Old 07-02-2013, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View PostAir studio logo can not be bought, AFAIK, as it is not a certification. It's just a signature that the sound engineers at Air Studios tuned the Pioneer's receivers sound.  Just like Andrew Jones' signature on certain Pioneer's speakers.

IMO, although I'm a huge Pioneer fan, Air Studios logo means nothing to my ears. I can't hear the difference between SC-65 vs SC-68, for example (non air studios vs air studios).  I'm torn between Yamaha and Pioneer because of two things:
1. I love Yamaha DSP.
2. I love Pioneer Optimum Surround.
For amplification I already use Parasound, so I don't care either way for the amp part.

Thanks, it's a bit different Andrew Jones works for Pioneer and by the way these entry level speakers he designed are very good 

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post #95 of 2970 Old 07-03-2013, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Passat3233 View Post

The Yamaha DSP-Z7/RX-Z7 has the same feature.
My RX-Z11 also has a pre-amp mode (which I believe have mine in, if my memory serves me), but I'll still be glad to be rid of the amps since I have no need of them.
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post #96 of 2970 Old 07-03-2013, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Yeah, I don't know. Every company prices their pre-pro's like that and has been forever. I always guessed maybe there were better quality parts in the pre-pro but.... who knows? I think it's dumb and pre-pro's should be priced lower in general.
Though different components may be part of it, the necessary mechanical/electrical design differences and lower projected sale volumes has got to enter into it as well.
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post #97 of 2970 Old 07-03-2013, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by bwillcox View Post

Though different components may be part of it, the necessary mechanical/electrical design differences and lower projected sale volumes has got to enter into it as well.

I agree on what you're saying. But that should translate of pre-pro having the same price as the receiver, not 50% higher than the receiver in the case of Yamaha.

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post #98 of 2970 Old 07-03-2013, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
I agree on what you're saying. But that should translate of pre-pro having the same price as the receiver, not 50% higher than the receiver in the case of Yamaha

GREED!

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post #99 of 2970 Old 07-03-2013, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post

GREED!
Hard to argue with that (greed is a strong motivator). But I also think it's standard marketing practice to price separates above AVRs. Also, recall that the combined CX-A5000/MX-A5000 is the first flagship AV setup since the RX-Z11 six years ago, and the MSRP for the Z11 was $5500. It's initial street price was in the low four thousand dollar range (till it went on fire sale, which is why I own two of them). I feel that the 3030 is more likely targeting the same market niche as the RX-Z7 (which I also own) did than it is the RX-Z11.
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post #100 of 2970 Old 07-03-2013, 11:24 AM
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Not to rain on anyone's parade, but it's $3,000 components like these that make me "feel" that much better about the $1300 I spent on my Denon 4311 (3) years ago, now. Just what else are you getting, bottom line, 3 years later for over double the price?

And to that point, what is Yammy doing for the subs? Tell me they're finally providing some meaningful EQ to them if they're sticking with proprietary tech on a $3,000 PRE/PRO?

It's (slower evolution) really a good thing, AFAIC, as I think we've finally reached the point in the last few years where advances have become truly incremental and you don't feel compelled to run out and get a new AVR every 18 months...or maybe I'm just getting older. tongue.gifsmile.gif

Personally, there's simply no way on earth I could dish out this kind of money on an AVR/PRE without the HDMI 2.0/display mate stuff sorted and HDMI everywhere on board at this point. I feel many others will "non act" accordingly.

Still, I don't doubt these will be amazing machines, so enjoy them. For me, unless Onkyo has some big tricks up their sleeve it looks like I'll be "suffering" with my 4311 for another year, lol.

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post #101 of 2970 Old 07-03-2013, 11:32 AM
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Yamaha have the most superior DSP program in the world, its YPAO + RSC is far better than most iteration of Audyssey, Yamaha's HDMI handshake stability is better than Denon (at least better than Denon's xx13 series).

Last but not least, the DAC on this pre-pro is far superior than the Denon 4311.

I am sure the Denon have a better value, but the performance is, IMHO, far lower than this Yamaha.

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post #102 of 2970 Old 07-03-2013, 11:58 AM
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I must have really missed the boat on this Yamaha tech.

First, I thought YPAO offered zero EQ below 60 hz on the subs. That's a big problem in many rooms.

Two, I don't know what "far better" means in regards to room EQ, do you have the testing results? I've heard fantastic results from four different methodologies. So basically: "far better"? Sez who? Heavily room and user dependent in my opinion, never mind their audible results being completely subjective user to user anyway.

DACs? Varying iterations need to be warred during the next blind ABX at an AVS GTG. I've heard dozens and to say I'm skeptical of ANY over the last decade sounding far superior to others is putting it lightly. As far as I'm concerned it's some of the very best specsmanship this hobby has to offer.

But, sigh, I've been down this AVS road before. All I have to do is visit the 2013 Denon thread for the precise converse of the above.

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post #103 of 2970 Old 07-03-2013, 12:06 PM
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Far better room correction: YPAO can be tweaked Audyssey can't. As simple as that. Nothing subjective about it.

Better DAC: results may be subjective, but studio engineers are not the foolish kinds who suddenly flock to ESS Sabre for no reason. Furthermore, it's super easy to hear the difference between Sabre vs Wolfson vs BurrBrown based DAC. They have their own sound characteristics.

Now if you think your Denon is better, more power to you. I happen to not think so.

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post #104 of 2970 Old 07-03-2013, 12:30 PM
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^ that's not what I think, said, or inferred at all. Quite the contrary, actually. I believe the unit will sound acutely similar. I noticed you spoke to the "tweakability" of the YPAO. That's great, but I've found it's MORE important to get the lower octaves right that can really get out of whack and then worry about adding a few dbs here or there across the chain. Again, it's all subjective anyway. People prefer their sound they way they do.

I'm all about discerning these DAC's let's set something up, lmao.


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post #105 of 2970 Old 07-03-2013, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View PostFar better room correction: YPAO can be tweaked Audyssey can't. As simple as that. Nothing subjective about it.

 

Question have you tried DIRAC Live?

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post #106 of 2970 Old 07-03-2013, 03:04 PM
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According to DIRAC, my car audio have been tuned with DIRAC Live, but I don't like the sound of my car stereo (factory upgraded).

Other than that, I've only had experience with YPAO, Lyngdorf, MCACC, Audyssey, and Emo-Q (euggggh bleeeech).

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post #107 of 2970 Old 07-03-2013, 03:12 PM
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Sorry, forgot to add Anthem's ARC and DSPeaker Dual Core 2.0.

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post #108 of 2970 Old 07-03-2013, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Parys View Post

Is there a way to do it from xlr connectors? Thanks for the response.

Yes,
see this link, and scroll down (a lot of good info here too):
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/balancedaudio/index.htm

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post #109 of 2970 Old 07-03-2013, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I must have really missed the boat on this Yamaha tech.

First, I thought YPAO offered zero EQ below 60 hz on the subs. That's a big problem in many rooms.



James

YPAO EQs sub down to 31Hz with tweaks to your heart's content. I'm referring to models such as A2020 and A3020. Other 4-digit Aventage models also have that sub EQ and TWEAKABILITY .
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post #110 of 2970 Old 07-03-2013, 06:33 PM
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^^^ what he said. smile.gif

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post #111 of 2970 Old 07-04-2013, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but it's $3,000 components like these that make me "feel" that much better about the $1300 I spent on my Denon 4311 (3) years ago, now. Just what else are you getting, bottom line, 3 years later for over double the price?

And to that point, what is Yammy doing for the subs? Tell me they're finally providing some meaningful EQ to them if they're sticking with proprietary tech on a $3,000 PRE/PRO?

It's (slower evolution) really a good thing, AFAIC, as I think we've finally reached the point in the last few years where advances have become truly incremental and you don't feel compelled to run out and get a new AVR every 18 months...or maybe I'm just getting older. tongue.gifsmile.gif

Personally, there's simply no way on earth I could dish out this kind of money on an AVR/PRE without the HDMI 2.0/display mate stuff sorted and HDMI everywhere on board at this point. I feel many others will "non act" accordingly.

Still, I don't doubt these will be amazing machines, so enjoy them. For me, unless Onkyo has some big tricks up their sleeve it looks like I'll be "suffering" with my 4311 for another year, lol.

James

I have to agree with you James. People with decent systems that are less than 5 years old are not going to get much value for a whole lot more money. Times have changed though and with the economy picking up, more people have the spare cash to pay their asking price. It's not greed as some have said, it's what the market will bear. We'll find out what it's truly worth when it comes out and we can see what dealers can actually sell them for. While this may not be our cup of tea, for those looking to expand their home theater with more speakers, or starting out in the world of separates, this looks like a prepro worth considering. Whatever your thoughts are on DACs, Sabre DACs are good parts and more than likely anyone that buys this prepro won't be disappointed in the sound. It looks like it has enough features to make anyone happy. I have to agree with those disappointed with the lack of XLRs for the subs though. While we sit on the sidelines and wait for our world changing prepro to appear, I think it's best to leave this thread to those anxiously awaiting its arrival.
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post #112 of 2970 Old 07-04-2013, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by SARHENTO View Post

YPAO EQs sub down to 31Hz with tweaks to your heart's content. I'm referring to models such as A2020 and A3020. Other 4-digit Aventage models also have that sub EQ and TWEAKABILITY .

Is the most recent YPAO version (A3020 or xx30) significantly more advanced than the version used in say an RX-V1700? Wondering if the newer units will provide better sound from a room correction standpoint.
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post #113 of 2970 Old 07-04-2013, 11:00 AM
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The 3000 series use the most advanced version than the 1000 series. It's always been like that, IIRC.

The one I highly recommend is the YPAO with RSC. AFAIK only available on the top model of each year only.

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post #114 of 2970 Old 07-04-2013, 11:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

The 3000 series use the most advanced version than the 1000 series. It's always been like that, IIRC.

The one I highly recommend is the YPAO with RSC. AFAIK only available on the top model of each year only.

Isn't RSC only useful if using presence speakers? I thought that's what the angle measurements is used for...
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post #115 of 2970 Old 07-04-2013, 02:24 PM
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Isn't RSC only useful if using presence speakers? I thought that's what the angle measurements is used for...

I have a 3020 and it also does the surrounds and rear surrounds.
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post #116 of 2970 Old 07-04-2013, 02:30 PM
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RSC is Reverb Sound Cancellation. It cancels unnecessary reverberation in your room acoustics.

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post #117 of 2970 Old 07-04-2013, 03:39 PM
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YPAO™ R.S.C. (Reflected Sound Control) Sound Optimization with Speaker Angle Measurement

YPAO analyzes room acoustics and performs speaker angle measurements, then calibrates audio parameters to achieve optimum sound at any of several listening positions. It employs Reflected Sound Control to correct early reflections for studio-quality sound. It also provides DSP Effect Normalization, which varies the CINEMA DSP parameters according to the reflected sounds.



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post #118 of 2970 Old 07-04-2013, 03:50 PM
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I stand corrected. The "R" is not "reverb". However, as per Yamaha's description, it is a reverb control just like Pioneer's Advanced MCACC.

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post #119 of 2970 Old 07-04-2013, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

The one I highly recommend is the YPAO with RSC. AFAIK only available on the top model of each year only.

No.
R.S.C. is available on:
- 2010: RX-A3000 and RX-A2000
- 2011: RX-A3010 and RX-A2010
- 2012: RX-A3020, RX-A2020, RX-A1020, RX-A820, RX-A720, RX-V773, RX-V673
- 2013: CX-A5000, RX-A3030, RX-A2030, RX-A1030, RX-A830, RX-A730, RX-V775, RX-V675

Angle measurement is only available on the top models RX-A3000, RX-A3010, RX-A3020, RX-A3030 and CX-A5000.

multi-point measurement is available on the RX-V7xx and larger models
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post #120 of 2970 Old 07-04-2013, 06:13 PM
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Nice! Glad to hear RSC is available for every receiver in 2013. It helps a lot with "live" room.

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